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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - GN15 Leaf Green paint

I am still struggling with sourcing the correct GN15 Leaf Green paint for my Frog project car. GN15 is what the car came from factory in and this is for a full bare metal respray job.

It seems that this GN15 is a rare colour! My plan was (o is, as I haven't quite abandoned it yet!) to paint the car using Cellulose paint. This would suit me as
a) I am used to the stuff, have done quite a lot of resprays over the years and know that I am capable of getting a good finish with it.
b) I prefer the finish obtained with cellulose; it suits the car better than the harder gloss style of 2K IMHO
c) I don't have the equipment or facilities for safely spraying 2 pack

My paint supplier has spent quite a bit of time unsuccessfully trying to source a formula for this GN15 colour in Cellulose. He says he can supply in 2K but that isn't what I want. He says he can also supply the colour in what he calls "air dried Acrylic". Does anyone have any advice on this paint, any pros and cons, how it behaves and how it compares to cellulose?

I do have another option which is to abandon the idea of the original GN15 colour and doing it an alternative period colour (probably Iris Blue) for which they do have the paint formula for celly.
GuyW

If you go into a paint factors these days and ask for Cellulose paint what you get is probably Acrylic. Getting genuine Cellulose is very difficult.
There used to be an eBay seller from Ireland who sold it but I have not needed to look for ages. I'll be needing some in Blaze soon but I think that colour is easier to obtain.

Rob
MG Moneypit

Maybe, Mike, but from discussions with the owner of this company he seemed to be pretty clear that he could supply Cellulose if only he could obtain the correct formula for the GN15 colour that I was after. And he was making a clear distinction between that, and the "air dried acrylic" that was available, and for which he was able to get the formula. I just wonder what this air dried acrylic is like to work with, and what its limitations are.
GuyW

I've just got some Ice Blue (BU18) cellulose from my usual supplier to try and it's slightly darker than the original I've found on a few original parts. I'll have to see if they can lighten it a bit before ordering the fulll amount.

Where are you trying Guy? I use auto paints St. Helens.

I'm with you on the celly front, it looks right on an old car. I also like the fact that I will be able to easily re do if I have any mishaps.

I've just this minute found a place called Craftmaster paints that have your Leaf green in coach enamel and also seem to say they can do it in celly? Worth a try?
John Payne

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-Litre-Austin-Healey-Sprite-Automotive-Cellulose-Colours-Paint-Craftmaster-/261359915489

Leaf Green GN15 is listed in the dropdown.

Rob
MG Moneypit

I had the odd exchange on a newsgroup about cellulose paint and the consensus was that true cellulose paint hadn't been sold for maybe 50 years but had been replaced by a modern substitute which had the same basic characteristics and was solvent based. I may have some old cellulose paint in my shed and some modern replacements so I'll have a look, the old place that did body work locally, gone now for development for flats etc, had been warned that they had far more paint than their permit allowed them to store so they asked the former owner of my house if he wanted it and he said OK, they left the paint at the back of the garage while he was out and it amounted to a stack of tins about 10' long, 3' high and about 2' deep. A few months later a bunch of us from the AH club sorted it into basic colours and took what we wanted for ourselves. Some of the tins were old Dockers brand and looked like small milk churns which dates that stuff. I still have some and a sniff of some of it says that stuff in those days was potent.
David Billington

I've just had 3 litres of cellulose mixed by my local factors - Paintstore Ltd in Leamington Spa. 01926 888818. The label reads GIPGLOSS CELLULOSE high performance automotive coating contains lead.
This was for a mixed colour matched to my own paint sample - a darker version of British Racing Green similar to one of the D Type colours. The car took a little over 2 litres so there's quite a bit left for a later date if needed, the cost was about £90.
f pollock

Guy, try this chap. I got his number from AH Spares. He's been in the auto paint business all his life, and a phone call to him is a rewarding experience.

Ken Burdekin
01298 814813

He's in Derbyshire, I think.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

HI Guy,

not sure if this is of any use but came across http://www.glasurit.com/uk/glasurit-color-online when having a look for information (searching for GN15). I only had a quick look but this may give you the mix characteristics that you would need??

Alan

a reid

Thanks all. A few alternative possibilities to follow up there. I had hoped to use my local supplier who in turn sources from Auto Paints at St Helens. The problem isn't in obtaining cellulose. Its in getting the formula for GN15 in cellulose.

My original question got a bit lost in he background detail!

<<<"air dried Acrylic". Does anyone have any advice on this paint, any pros and cons, how it behaves and how it compares to cellulose?>>>
GuyW

According to the chap I spoke to at Auto Paints that acrylic is basically the same as the stuff you get in an aerosol from Halfords etc.

John Payne

So presumably you finish with a clearcoat, rather than cutting and buffing?
GuyW

Guy have you tried asking any of the Sprite trade gurus - Gordon at Classic Revival, or Shaun at CCK, or Paul Woolmer etc etc?
David Smith

No David. I don't know these people. And l don't really understand how these things work. My paint factor says he has been unable to locate a formula for GN15 in cellulose. But l don't know if this formula would be specific to his paint manufacturer, or if other firms who seem to be able to supply GN15 are using a different source and a different formula.

I'm not even sure l like the colour, not having seen it "in the flesh" as it were!
GuyW

It'll be difficult to see the correct colour in the flesh. I asked Ken Burdekin how I could get a look at his Cherry Red, and it seemed I couldn't. I've no doubt he mixes the correct period colours, but who knows if we would like them?
Nick and Cherry Scoop

This is exactly my problem. My car was Ice blue and I like the look of it in photos of cars on the internet but the Ice blue I've been sent looks a lot darker and is definitely darker that the bits of original paint I've found on the car.

Really the only way you know the colour you've had mixed is right is by comparing with the original, easy on a modern car but not so easy on a 60 year old one.

I'm sure one suppliers interpretation will be different from another as well. I'm sure I'll end up having to send my gear stick cover with the original paint on to get a match.

John Payne

There was a leaf green frog on Heartbeat last night, driven by Lulu.

http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_570195-Austin-Healey-Sprite-ADO13-1961.html
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Guy, have you asked Jawel paints if they can mix GN15 in cellulose? They claim to be able to supply a range of co!ours
Bill
W Bretherton

Yes, Bill.
At first time of asking they said they would check and email back. But didn't. Second attempt and they said they were unable to mix that colour.
GuyW

I see. Then it looks unlikely Leaf Green is available in celly. I don't know about acrylic - I presume that's what the Halfords type aerosols are. Water based solvents rather than oil.

I've been through this deciding what colour to go for quandary. For me, as you know, I was happy to go with BRG because 1. My mk3 Sprite I had in the early 70's was BRG, 2. I like it and 3. Jawel supplies it off the shelf. I know it's not original for Frogeyes but that doesn't bother me, neither is 2-pack.

Not helping you I Know but cellulose options seem limited. Maybe go for Iris Blue if Jawel can do it (or someone else) but you'd want to know you could get more if needed.
Bill
W Bretherton

It seems odd. There are certainly Leaf Green frogs out there - doesn't Alan Anstead have one? And there has been at least one in recent months offered for sale which said "it had been resprayed in the correct period Leaf Green colour" -seemingly claiming this as a USP. Maybe those I have seen are all done in 2K.

If air drying Acrylic is the same as those rattle cans, then I don't think I would choose that. I think it is OK for touching up but it does need a clear lacquer coat to finish it and I don't want to do that.

I am probably being too obstinate for my own good in wanting to get the paint locally. Or maybe, deep down, I don't like the colour and really want to do it in Iris Blue Cellulose!
GuyW

Guy,

Some years back when 'cellulose' was common I needed a colour matched and the factor offered to send a sample to the company for matching and they did a good job, IIRC it was International or PPG at the time so a big time company, maybe you can ask if your supplier can do the same.

Interesting to note F Pollock earlier mentioning some mixed colour containing lead, I thought that had been phased out. As I understand it many red pigments that were durable were phased out with other pigments that were less UV stable hence many red cars fading outside the paint guarantee, a solution was to apply a clear lacquer over the red paint to improve the longevity. Regarding the air drying acrylic you would have to check what the paint system requires ie if it requires a clear coat or not. I've sprayed cellulose metallic in one coat and base and clear but never a solid colour that required a clear coat. It may be that the new 'cellulose' systems have been changed to use non lead pigments and the colour mix information not updated to match for your required colour.

I've checked my stock of cellulose and have a few makes but no Leaf Green. If you needed Rootes Tahiti Blue ICI Belco cellulose synthetic enamel then it seems I could help. I'm not sure what 'cellulose synthetic enamel' implies but maybe it's a replacement for traditional cellulose.

David Billington

Yes, you are.
No, you don't.
Yes, you do.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Guy,

I am thinking that what you call cellulose, we call lacquer over here, but I am not sure I am right.

That said, I have some experience with lacquer, acrylic enamel, and acrylic lacquer. These were all automotive paint, and I don't think it would be what you would find in a rattle can.

I am thinking the term "air dry" is another way of saying that the toxic isocyanate hardeners are not required. They may be optional. I believe Dupont Centari was an acrylic enamel, though I don't know if it is still in production.

If the characteristic that you are looking for in terms of spraying cellulose is that fact that it flows together immediately so that you know when enough is enough, the acrylic enamel that I have used does not have that characteristic.

That is, with acrylic enamel, you have to stop spraying when it still has a bit of an orange peel look, and it flows a bit later. If you continue to spray till it flows together, it will be full of runs a little later.

It has been too long (like late 60s) since I have sprayed acrylic lacquer for me to remember what it was like.

Neither the acrylic lacquer nor the acrylic enamel that I used required a clear coat. They dried glossy unlike the base coat / clear coat products. I do not know if clear coat was an option.

Charley
C R Huff

Guy,

A PS to my previous post: Someone mentioned acrylic being a waterborne coating. While many acrylics are waterborne (like house paint) the acrylics that I used were definitely solventborne coatings.

There are waterborne automotive coatings, but they require very demanding control of the painting/drying environment that you are unlikely to achieve at home.

Charley
C R Huff

maybe another source to evaluate

http://www.mgbits.com/contents/en-uk/search.php?searchphrase=leaf%20green

Alan
a reid

Thanks Alan.
Had you posted that link before? Someone had, around Christmas I think. I know I looked at the site at the time and thought it too expensive at £46 a litre. I thought at the time that I would find it at other suppliers for less. Then I lost the link.
Still expensive, but at least I now have options.
GuyW

Obviously NTG have their margins. If you could find their supplier...
Dave O'Neill 2

Another possible supplier...

http://autopaintsupplies.co.uk/index.php/products-services/classic-car
Dave O'Neill 2

I decided I'd give Ken Burdekin a ring after his name was mentioned above and then realised I'd met him at Newark auto jumble where he usually has a stand. Anyway, had a good chat to him and basically he reckons that most celly suppliers use a modern formula of the celly base and then use the original mix ratios which was probably why my ice blue was wrong. He says he still uses the older type celly base so the colours should work out the same.
So I ordered a litre (his minimum order) of ice blue after wincing at the price. It arrived today and it seems pretty much bang on. It's amazing how small the difference is in tone but how big the difference is when applied. I've only brushed it on a few areas to try it so I'll have to try it sprayed on a panel but I'm much happier with it than the other stuff I got.

Guy, I think it's worth giving him a ring about your Leaf Green, he definitely knows his stuff. Prepare for a long call and him pushing his products but to be honest having checked them out he does stock decent stuff. For example his top gloss thinners is £25 which is double the cost of a lot you see but having looked into it it's a fair price and it sounds like it's worth getting. He also gave me a few good tips including using 2 Pack Ice Blue to brush paint the underside of the car. Safe to use when brushed, tougher than celly and brushing gets it into the nooks and crannies better than spraying. I'll probably do it that way, seems a sensible option.

http://www.carrestorationpaints.co.uk/#


John Payne

Thanks John, this maybe explains the cost differences I have found. I now have a number of sources able to supply my Leaf Green cellulose, though I haven't yet placed an order. They seem to fall into two price bands; one at around £20 a litre and the other at around £45 a litre, but all referred to as "Cellulose" paints. It may be that the cheaper batches are mixed using this modern version of the celly base rather than the authentic traditional blend.

And as an aside, I would like to applaud NTG motor services that Alan Reid put me in touch with. http://www.mgbits.com/index.html

When I asked about my GN15 paint they said yes they can supply and gave me some advice and extra information about the paint. But then advised that as they simply buy the paints in, it would be cheaper for me to buy direct from their supplier, providing me the necessary contact details. Many firms are very cagey about who their suppliers are as they prefer to add their mark up to take their own profit. I thought their response was courteous and helpful.
GuyW

Yes that is similar to what I found, about £20 a litre at Auto Paints St Helens and £38 through Ken B.

The receipt reads 'Viton Cellulose' if that is any help.
John Payne

John P. Brushing 2 pack presumably without the activator so it just air dries?

Rob
MG Moneypit

Guy, I've usually used Paints4U online, they list cellulose and have always managed to trace colours for me even if weird and wonderful (bike frames).
I've used 2k for a few years now, you can borrow my air fed mask if you want, the filters are all bolted top a wall though.
P Simpson

Thanks Paul I am still going for cellulose on this car but will take a look at Paints4U as well.
GuyW

Rob, no with the activator. Why, do you know of a reason why not?
John Payne

Just checked and it is ok for brush and roller application as Ken Burdekin informed me. This is the link from the HSE website:

http://www.coatings.org.uk/media/download.aspx?MediaId=2241

I will definitely still use a charcoal activated mask as I do with most paints now.
John Payne

John. I thought it was the activator that was the dangerous bit so assumed you didn't use it. The base will dry by evaporation but it takes ages to go hard.

How long have you got before you have to throw away the paint brush or roller? Can you use less activator to slow it down?

Rob
MG Moneypit

Rob, I'm no expert but the painters where I work use 2k isocyonate paint with brush and roller. They just bin the roller after use but the brushes can be cleaned with brush cleaner.
How fast it goes off depends on mix ratio and temperature I think.

I've got some epoxy primer for the interior and underneath of my car and although it doesn't contain isocyonates it is still a 2k paint. I've bee informed that epoxy primers are good to use for the home restorer as you can have a gap between application and top coat as unlike normal primers they prevent moisture ingress.
John Payne

The polyurethane primer l use is a 2 pack but not an isocyanate. Once mixed it has a use life of about 90 minutes but starts to thicken after about 60 though can still then be thinned. You can get a lot of brush painting done in an hour!
GuyW

The second hand heritage shell I bought had already been stone chipped which is still virgin but needing localised repair. I was looking for a durable paint for underneath and it sounds like brushed or rollered 2 pack is the way to go.

Rob
MG Moneypit

It's definitely the way I'm going. Yes it's going to take a lot longer but you'll definitely get better coverage and get it worked into all the gaps and seams. Plus you'll get a more durable finish than cellulose in the areas it needs it.
Doing it in the body colour with 2k will still give you that quality restoration look but without the dangers of spraying. If you are applying it to stone chip then you probably won't even notice it hasn't been sprayed.

It's going to be a while before I'm doing mine so let us know how it goes if you get it done first!
John Payne

Here's the Frog painted 3 weeks ago with the Paintstore cellulose I mentioned. I've G3'd it twice but it's essentially as it came out of the gun. Paint was about about £90 and still have loads left.

f pollock

Is that a respray over existing rubbed down celly? How many coats?
W Bretherton

Looking good!
John Payne

Fergus, how much paint did that use? Did it include the inside of the bonnet, engine bay or cockpit interior?
GuyW

I used about 2.5 litres (from 3 litres) of cellulose - mixed to a sample. That gave about 5 coats from a primered condition - although I did the rear shroud again - so that probably had 7. And that also included a 1/2 hard aluminium tonneau, head fairing and full interior, but the underside of bonnet I left as it was.
With celly you have to put down more than you think you need - as it inevitably sinks over time due to solvents evaporating and what substrates you've painted over.
I don't have a power mop so the secret to a good finish will be patience, 1000 wet n dry, G3, a bucket of water and an inexhaustable supply of fresh microfibre cloths.
f pollock

Thanks. I was thinking of ordering 3litres. Just seeking confirmation!
I have got good results by spraying the last 2 very light coats with a high ratio of thinners, and spraying them "wet". But that depends on temperature and drying conditions to avoid overdoing it and getting runs. 😊
GuyW

This thread was discussed between 24/05/2017 and 21/06/2017

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