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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - I'm back... and I have broken it already!

Hi folks,

I am back after a week in Nice/Monaco getting some sun and checking out the GP. I arrived back yesterday and thought I would extend the holiday by a day and do some work on the car today. Well... it only took me about 45 minutes before I broke it! Bottoms!

Just before the holiday I managed to get the engine in, but only with a couple of mount bolts loosely in. Today I tried to get things bolted in properly.

One of the side gearbox mount holes didn't quite line up so I poked a screwdriver in the hole to podger it into position and *CRACK* the captive nut came off!

Its one of the nuts that 105 screws into...

http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=1374

So... thoughts? It's totally inaccessible, difficult to repair, even if I did take the engine out (urgh! please no!). Also the part is NLS and there are none on ebay.

Will it matter (vibrations etc)? Do I have to bite the bullet and repair it or just carry on and hope for the best?

Cheers,
Malcolm
M Le Chevalier

Hmmmm... as ever, simply posting helps to clear the red mist and help you think a little more clearly.

I can't see why it wouldn't be OK with the other three bolts done up snug... Right? And actually it's just a bit of a none issue assuming I don't break another of the others! :-D

Thanks for listening!

Cheers,
Malcolm
M Le Chevalier

The part may be NLS, but I'm sure there are hundreds of secondhand ones around.

Did you look at gearboxes for sale? There may be one still attached.
D O'Neill

i was lucky mine came off when i trial fitted bolt before i fit engine in car i had access to some click bond nut plates so fit one of those
mark heyworth

Cant think it will be a problem. .with the weight of the box etc. . its not going anywhere is it.
others may think differently, but I wouldn't pull the engine just for that job. . .
P Bentley

I would have thought that with the two big bolts up through the chassis and the the one on the other side, you'd be ok.
G Lazarus

Drill and bolt right through with a longer bolt? You could make a wedge shaped washer form an oversize nut.
Peter Blockley

If 3 bolts were sufficient, BL would not have used 4.
As you said the engine is only in by a couple of bolts, lift it halfway out and replace item 104. As Dave said there are plenty around, if stuck I could post you one.
David Smith

David

Do you have any for 1500s? They appear to be quite different.

D O'Neill

"If 3 bolts were sufficient, BL would not have used 4."

Going slightly off topic, but what is the equivalent arrangement for manufactured kits for installing a T9 gearbox? My DIY installation has a single bolt holding a Ford Fiesta engine mounting rubber which screws directly into the boss on the bottom of the T9 tailshaft casing. So effectively has 1 bolt, where BL used 4. It hasn't caused any problem in 80,000 miles but I wonder how Frontline etc deal with it?
Guy Weller

The only real reason I could think they would use four would be so that it was symmetrical! Three bolts to hold the mount to the chassis is still more than the two bolts holding the mount to the gearbox.

If anyone does have a spare one for a 1500 I would be interested. There are ones on ebay attached to gearboxes, but I am not spending £100 on a gearbox just for a 20 pence nut!

And there always has to be one job left that needs to be completed :-)

Malc.
M Le Chevalier

I was going to suggest contacting a gearbox seller to see if they would sell the mount separately...particularly if they don't manage to sell the gearbox.
D O'Neill

good point, I only have 1275s, sorry.
John Collins?
Andy Jennings?
David Smith

I can't quite picture this in my mind but assume you can't get in through the open section to as said put in a loose nut on a longer bolt

you've put it's only the captive nut that has broken off so as a bodge to get in a 4th fixing could you use some sort of cavity fixing bolt or even big screw with some sort of cavity plug
Nigel Atkins

Guy,
I no longer have a photo that shows my bracket fitted but below shows their (spit) standard kit including new gearbox mounting plate from the brochure I have (there wasn't a lick of paint on my gearbox)

http://frontlinedevelopments.com/products/midget/fitting/948-1275-short-remote.pdf




Nigel Atkins

Thanks for responding to that question of mine Nigel. It wasn't the form of the mounting plate, so much as what then connects the gearbox to the mounting plate? And I cannot make out from the parts photo how that is achieved in their kit.

This is how I did it (photo)

Guy Weller

Oh my god no... 4 bolts are absolutly mandatory, if there are only 3 you run a very high risk even at low RPMs that the enormous torque of these engine could just tear the transmission away from the tunnel severing the fly wheel from the crank shaft... and the flywheel comming right across your leggs taking them off at the knees


Seriously dude, you do not want to die at the end of your driveway by bleeding out massive blood loss because the flywheel cut the end /tip of your man worm off...not cool

Think about it, now how important is that 4th tranny bolt

But... an exception, if you have a very small man worm like I do, and the risk of a "head" decapitaion from.an out of control flywheel is increadably remote and this is not a total track race car,

I wouldnt sweat it... 3 out 4 bolts are good enough for the hood rats i wish I was sleeping with.

Truthfully... its not an issue, your fine... loosing the 2 bottoms is a real problem..

Okay ... I lied there is one VERY SERIOUS MAJOR PROBLEM with leaving that bolt out....in the summer when its hot out, the engine bay heat will try an escape thur that hole, and burn the crap out your leg, its very uncomfortable and on long trips really burns...

so remember, you have been warned...no complaining if you get ankle or knee cancer from this failure to fix this issue.

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

(if I remember) next time I have the camera out (quite a fuss with my old battery killing digital) I'll take a royal on tour type photo using the flash as I did with the last one


... of the bracket, not a royal
Nigel Atkins

Thanks Nigel, but don't injure yourself or get locked up in the process.
It is only idle curiosity as I have no intention of altering my arrangement which has served well for the last 10 years or more. The question only arose on considering the 4 bolt + cradle, belt and braces approach to the 1500 BL version, as compared to my delicate 1 bolt attachment!
Guy Weller

Malcolm,

I can think of three reasons why you might want to repair the nut / bracket.

in reducing order of seriousness…


1 - the engine and gearbox might move the bracket when you brake hard. - such that the fan meets the radiator, this may also deform the tunnel where you have fitted the bolt.

2 - the torque might move the bracket when you accelerate hard.

3 - possibly the least important mechanically - the bracket will vibrate against the inside of the tunnel all the time !!!


Malc
Malc Gilliver

Only one bolt holding my rubber mount to the g/box too. Although there are two holding the rubber mount to the plate bolted to the body of the car.

Mine was a kit from Moor lane garage. Didn't bother to photograph it when I installed 14 years ago. But I'm going to be pulling it apart soon, so I'm going to reverse document the installation.

This stuff would also be useful on the current thread: -- "How Does a Type 9 Feel?", where Josh is enquiring about a diy T9 conversion.



Lawrence Slater

Thanks for the input everyone, still pondering what to do, and whether there is an easy solution I just haven't thought of yet!

Prop, if you are still there, could you just clarify on which side of the fence you sit?! I got a little lost with you arguing with yourself! ;-)

Malcolm.
M Le Chevalier

Malcolm,
Can you not unbolt the saddle piece, lift the back end of the gearbox up inside the tranny tunnel with a jack, with it otherwise still in situ, and slide that saddle piece out forwards. Weld a replacement nut back in place and carry on from there.
Guy Weller

I have found what I need after chatting to someone at work about the problem. What I need is a "Hollo Bolt"

http://www.lindapter.com/Products/Cavity_Fixings/2/Type_HB_Hollo-Bolt

I knew someone would have invented something for this already!

Malcolm
M Le Chevalier

Ah, but can you get them in AF sizes?
Guy Weller

Malcolm,
(in hurt voice) isn't that some sort of cavity fixing bolt I suggested early but with a much restricted range of sizes available

I'd have thought with all the building trade fixings you can get now you'd find some thing suitable


Guy,
when I can be bothered I've got to do the "5 minute" job of greasing the front suspension (which normally ends up taking at least an hour because things go wrong and far more grease wasted than used with half a roll of blue roll in the bin) plus a bit of painting so whilst it's on the stands at the front I'll get the camera out before I get covered in paint and grease
Nigel Atkins

Sorry Nigel, I missed that one. You are quite right!

Those ones I linked too are too large, but I have since found some smaller ones.

And Guy, stop winding me up. I need 5/16, which is just M8 by an old fashioned name!
M Le Chevalier

Malc

Clarification....

You will be fine without the 4 th bolt ...I wouldnt bother or loose any sleep.. as long as to 2 bolts are in the bottom its not going any where

The engine is mounted by 2 mounts up front requiring a 10 bolts and 12 nuts and 2 set pins, the engine mounted to the transmission 7 to 9 large bolts, the propellor shaft slides into the tranny and at the back there is 4 bolts that mount it to the diff and there are 2 very beefy over built UJ that connect the proppeler shaft to its mountings

The rear axle only moves on about 3 inches and maybe on a bad day once in 5 years 6 inches in any direction

With all that hardware and mountings... loosing this one little bolt will not be an issue... your safe

The only problem you will experiance ... because there is not bolt into the treanny tunnel ... during the summer heat will come out of that hole like a blow dry and be very uncomfortable.... thats my personal experiance of driving without all your tranny nuts secured

The 1st 3 years I ran my car I didnt even know I was supposed to have bolts in the tranny tunnel .. and it took 2 more years to finally track down the size and spec I needed to for the 2 tranny tunnel bolts

All that time in 5 years... I never got the head of my penis cut off

I wouldnt sweat it... the next time the engine is out for some other issue then deal with it

But that said, I am proud to call my self a hill billy... "" he HAw, what this...""

Prop



Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Opps I forgot...

Theres also 10 bolts that mount the tranny to the chassis and 3 mounts

So in total there are 45 bolts and nuts, combo, 45 lock washers, 5 rubber mounts, 2 set pins, 2 over built UJ, and 1 over built yoke

Loosing one little bolt that 1 inch long X 3/8" in dia (or similar size ) will not cause a massive fire crazy crash that will cause you an instant circumcision of your penis

It just wont happen... if it does, well then, what can I say, just write me an angry letter and you can have my old worn out badly abused penis

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

This thread was discussed between 28/05/2014 and 29/05/2014

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