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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - MG Midget vin number location??

Hi guys and girls. I've recently obtained an MG Midget parts car and I'm sure there are some parts that someone here needs. However, I can't seem to ID the year because I can't find any numbers except one starting with GBE and then 6 numbers... Can anyone tell me where to look? The tag I found is screwed onto the L/S door jam, but the site that has the vin info says that is not a vin number. Help? Another guy ask about the bumpers. These are chrome if that makes a difference.. This car will be for sale as soon as I can ID it. It's all there with moderate front end damage, (grill, radiator) real nice interior, removable hard top, and a dual carb engine.(running when wrecked) Oh, and 5 "knock off" type spoke wheels.. I kinda saved it from the crusher because I'm sure there is someone, somewhere, that would really love to get their hands on this survivor for the parts. I have NO paperwork on this car so I can't ID it any better.
Ray 805 300 0012
R Burnett

Post a couple of photos and we can probably date it from those.

There are other ways to narrow down the age.

Does it have two or three wipers?

Does it have a single rear bumper, or two quarter-bumpers?

Metal or plastic dashboard?

Round or square rear wheel arches?
Dave O'Neill 2

For UK cars (so suspect it may be the same for US spec) the VIN plate should be on the driver's (US) side front chassis rail below the carbs.
Picture shows an Austin version.
If it's missing then as Dave has offered, post some more info plus pictures.

Jeremy Tickle

The GBE number is the body number assigned at the factory that made the shell.


Not sure but I think that might have been Pressed Steel Fisher back then.

The VIN is as described above.
Bill sdgpM

tell me the GBE number and I'll have a stab at dating it from my records of various Midgets.
David Smith

Thanks guys, I knew someone here would have some good info. I'm going to powerwash under the hood in the next couple of days. I'll look on the frame rail. BTW, it has two wipers and a single bumper front and rear...
Ray
R Burnett

Single rear bumper is pre 1970. Two wipers pre 68.

Some US models had the VIN plate on the B post and on the dashboard top, although yours may well be in the engine bay.
Dave O'Neill 2

Does it have a folding soft-top or a removable frame?

Wind-up windows or side screens?
Dave O'Neill 2

In the usa the vin is on a little shelf on top of the engine block next to the cly head just behind the thermo stat housing on the side that holds the dissy

Its also on the dash at the bottom of the winshild on the driver side

Are the bumpers rounded fat or skinny angular looking

Is there a hood (bonnet) spear, does the chrome trim run across the fender, the middle of the door and into the rear quarter panal or does the trim run from wheel arch to wheel arch below the bottom of the door on the rocker panal

Photo the grill

Ive never found the vin# on the chassis rail on my car
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

"In the usa the vin is on a little shelf on top of the engine block"

Prop, I think that even in the USA that is the engine number, not the VIN number. It would still be useful for Ray to have as it will identify if it has the original (correct) engine, or if it has been changed at some time.
Guy W

Boy, talk about a wealth of information. You guys are great.
David, the "body tag" number is GBE 035104.
Dave, the top is like an early Vette, complete in it's self, and removable. The dash is metal, the front wheel wells are round, the rear are squared off like a 69 Camaro vs a 68 that were round.
The engine number is 12V 671 Z/l 4364. (not sure if the letter following the / is an "l" (L) or an "I" (i), but not a numeral "1".
There is no chrome body molding down the sides.There is a separate plastic tag under the frame rail tag screw that has "BMC 65" which I would assume would mean 1965 model year.
AND, once again, the "vin" ID site says the CAN number is not a valid vin number. So, I'll depend on the numerous experts here to give me the straight "poop", then we can get onto who'd like to have this beauty. I was told the engine had recently been rebuilt before the wreck in 2009 and subsequent 6 years of being parked at the body shop.
I can't believe how nice the interior is. Oh, and it has "roll up" windows vs curtains...
The bumpers are rounded type chrome, and both are in good shape.
Once again, this is a "parts" donator car as I have no paperwork, although it is "lien-able" if someone wanted to attempt a Resurrection... And I know the engine and trans will work just fine. I plan to do enough to get it started...
Thanks again guys, you're truly the "Columbos" of the MG world..
Ray
R Burnett

Removable top and wind-up windows would make it a Mk2 Midget/Mk3 Sprite, 1964-66.

The engine is an early '70s 1275cc.
Dave O'Neill 2

Vin 'CAN' number maybe try GAN instead?
Jeremy Tickle

Guy

Yes... the engine number, is the vin # in the usa

12V 671 Z/l 4364

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

I didn't realise that Prop.

In the UK, VIN = Vehicle Identification Number,
so it seems a bit odd to restrict vehicle identification to just the engine number, when the engine can so easily be changed
Guy W

12V 671 Z/l 4364

sorry but thats not a vin #

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

1. Dave, the top is like an early Vette, complete in it's self, and removable. The dash is metal,

1. There is no chrome body molding down the sides.

3.The bumpers are rounded type chrome, and both are in good shape.

Im guessing #1 is an add on parish hard top and has no soft top or frame...I sort of dont think this is the rare fold away top that slides down under the rear deck behind the seats... but I may be wrong based on the iscription being given

#2... is there any rivet holes, old screws, markings in the paint or hardware in the 2 locations I sighted

3. The fact that there is only 2 bumpers front and back means these are the fat bumpers

On the grill... is it vertical slated...30 to 50 slates
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Guy... yepp its an oddity, esp stamped on a small piece of tin held by rivets... other cars its etched into the block and have to be removed with a grinder

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Hey ray

My vin # is GAN 5UB 101 397 G

Your looking for a similar # like that

There are 2 tags one on the top of the dash at the bottom of the winshield just to the right of the steering wheel... very close to that metal rod that is vertical next to the winshild

2nd location ... see photo... i never got around to reapplying it after the engine rebuild...but see the ink pen between the 2 rivet holes

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Sorry... photo

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

I agree with Dave O - the body number dates it to 1965.
The engine therefore is not original, it should have a 1098cc engine but the 1275 is better !
David Smith

Rail tag reads: CAN 3L 34633. No rivet or screw holes on the sides, and it doesn't appear to have ever had a soft top. The hard top appears to be original.... Did the smaller, 1098 motor come with twin carbs?? The owner that wrecked it was kind of a MG collector and had two or three of these cars so it is highly possible he swapped out the larger motor. This one was supposedly recently rebuilt before the wreck... Grill is mostly horizontal, rather than vertical..(and smashed)
Thanks again guys, mysteries are such fun, huh...
Ray
R Burnett

GAN3/34633 dates it to late 1964. Engine number is between 72 and 74.

Grill should be vertical slats and it should have the chrome side and bonnet strips.

Trev
Trevor Mason

That is my thought to trevor

Ray... im still not understanding the top, is it fiberglass and can be taken off easily or does it fold up and slip into the trunk

It sounds like a good parts car thats mainly a hodge podge of various parts cars to create one car, probably why it sat for so long abondoned as it would be to expensive to rebuild properly

Yes all the A seris engines orginally had duel carbs from 948 to 1275

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Does the top look similar to mine a hard top made out of fiberglass that comes completely off with just a couple of clips and a couple of turnbuckles

This is the only hard top sold in the usa called a parish and now called (true line ??)

Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Ray...

can you post some picks, its not to hard to post, we can help walk you thur it if you need it

It would certianly help us to see whats what

Thanks

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Sorry guys, we've has 3 power outages due to heavy weather. My yard is pretty much a muddy mess so I can't get to the car just now.. If the thunder storms stay away the ground should be dry by tomorrow afternoon...
Ray
R Burnett

Not a problem ray...rain to much rain ever wher....we should team up and sell it to california

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

California won't buy your rain Prop - they'd expect you to pay for dumping your excess.

BTW I lke your hardtop. Stylish.
Greybeard

OK guys, this top does appear to be f/glass with "3" windows. A full rear window, and two small side windows of irregular 4 sided shape and "squared" corners, (the windows are not square, but there is nothing "rounded" about them)...There is a small portion of the interior behind the seats, kind of like a "package tray", that happens to have a padded cushion that a small child might fit on... The side windows are even with this area. The top starts right behind the roll down windows. The grill is in fact mostly "vertical", with about 5 or 6 horizontal cross bars...
I'm going to pull the radiator away from the front of the engine, "Micky mouse" another small radiator I have, and see if I can get the motor started. I feel if I can say the motor does, in fact, run, and maybe verify the stick trans also works as it should, I'll be able to advertize it as a "runner" drive train which, IMO, should add quite a bit to the overall value... Does the engine number specify a size for sure??
You guys have been an invaluable source of information as I figured this forum would be. Anyone have any idea what this engine/trans/rear end, super nice seats, hard top, and 5 spoked K/off wheels should be worth?? I'd like to sell it complete and I'm not looking to get rich as much as I desire the whole car go to someone who needs these parts. Both doors are there, a little rough, the left front fender, both bumpers, and the deck lid are in good shape. The hood is damaged, but not beyond repair, and all the glass is undamaged...
Any rough guesses as to value??
Ray
R Burnett

12V is definitely a 1275 engine.
Dave O'Neill 2

Ray...

pic would be really helpful...you can tske them with a smart phone, and there easy to post onto the site

Being in the states mybself and reading about the general description of the car

Id probably put a price tag of about $1000 usa if it starts and runs for 10 minutes

Obviously if the suspension is shot, or the body is a complete mess, or the mechanicals are worn out the price will be way off

If you dont want to post photos to help us out then id look at craigslist and ebay for comparable cars get a better idea on value

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Here is a somewhat local car...300 miles to the west.of me...that I invision what your car maybe looks like.

There asking $900, but in the description he will take alot less, just to get it out of his drive is my guess... and id say the price is fair in the ball park if the new paint is at least a 15 footer

Is this similar to what you have?

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/5124957541.html

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Here is one from ebay... it looks a little over priced to me, but for that slate grill,.and if the engine was complete I could see dropping $500 - $700 on it without the grill and the engine is decent...mmmm $300 - $400...thats going to be ALOT of rust due to being buried in all those leafs

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Rescue-a-1967-MG-Midget-/201328108121?nav=SEARCH
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Btw... for you folks across the pond, that vinage englufing the car, thats good old fashioned poison ivy, get into that mess just whip out your 4 inch buck knife and start cutting your skin off, its better then clawing your skin off with your finger nails

And dont think winter will save you, it may look dead but the poison can live as is on dead poisin ivy for up to 5 years and still be as toxic as it is in the photo

Oh... and dont try smoking it or using it as emergency out door tolit paper...hahaha

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop

That 1964 MkI Midget in Kansas City (
http://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/5124957541.html) looks like a great project vehicle. Probably the disc braked and 1098cc version. I'd be snapping that up if it was over here!

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Yes, I liked the look of that one, too.
Dave O'Neill 2

I thought it looked the part also, if you like red then that is a great looking shade

Im curious as to how the car came to this point, id think its all down hill from this point on, you do this much work to the body and im sure if its a long term missouri car from 1964, it was a nightmare of a mess

But id think the car is worth the asking price, I wish I had the space and the free cash

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Ray

It just occured to me, I wonder if your car is a austin healy sprite.... same car but differant trim package

prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop

The VIN starts "GAN3", so it's a Midget....or should be!
Dave O'Neill 2

DUH... yepp, your correct

To much rain and not enough sleep...lol

P
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

I think the 1st photo shows why on several levels this is for sale

http://springfield.craigslist.org/cto/5070479101.html

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

OK, those are some examples of value... The difference with this car is it was running/driving just before the minor accident. It's about as complete as it could be, everything is there.. I'm going to attempt to start it and road test it around my land...
Pictures?? Boy, I wish I could post pictures. That's just a little above my computer savy... I use to send pictures via "Kodak easyshare", but they shut down... I'll take some pictures and transfer to my computer and then see if the tutorials here will guide me through posting them.. You guys have been such a great help I feel you deserve to see this car before I throw it out there to the wolves.
Ray
PS If the car in the weeds is worth anything at all, this one should easily bring over a grand...
R Burnett

Well its not exactly complete, its missing alot of trim, and its sat for along time with "ethanol based fuel" and its wrecked, and we still dont know what top you have on it, and the radiator has to be replaced im guessing.its the vertical flow and not the cross flow soooo CHA CHING, we dont know the condition of the suspension (agian extremely expensive... shocks alone are $150 a pop with shipping), you mentioned it would take a full day to powerwash =-O so god only knows what has gotten rusted out... over the last six years esp if parked on grass/ dirt/ or gravel and not on concrete, and it has no title

So it could well be only a $50 car we just dont know we need pic. Find a 13 year old kid and give him $20 to post 5 pics of the car.

Posting a photo only requires ... taking a photo with your smartphone and about 3 clicks and your pic is posted,

if you can remove tolit paper from the role, wipe the chocolate off the fun hole, dispose of the used wipe, then flush without assistance and can repeat successfully 3 times in a row then you
have all the necessary skills to post a pic
here on the bbs

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Let me repeat, this is a PARTS car. NO paperwork. Looking very briefly on e bay I found a used transmission for almost a grand. Over $1200 for a rebuilt one.. There is some rust under the body paint but it had to be there from another region. Nothing rusts is SW Arizona... This car wasn't abandoned,the owner kept calling the bodyshop saying he wanted to come and get it but couldn't. At one time I even considered trailering it to him but I needed a return load to make it worthwhile. Fast forward until now. The body shop sold and the new owner refused to store it any longer. I rescued it from the crusher because I felt some one needed these relatively hard to find parts.
The powerwash is to remove dust/dirt, not an oily mess..
I don't have a smart phone, just an old "flip phone" that does all I need it to do.
I'm hoping there is someone with a nice car parked in a garage with rods hanging out the side of the block that can use the good parts here to get their car back on the road as cheaply as possible. AND, through websites like this one would be able to split the parts up to others that might need them...
I took some pictures today and will add them to my "Shutterfly" collection and then try to figure a way to transfer them to this site...Or, maybe email them to someone here that can post them.
My "deal" for the last 30+ years has been in performance boats. Not the type anyone can go buy new, but the old flatbottoms and other V Drive types of the 60s and 70s.
Ray
R Burnett

""Looking very briefly on e bay I found a used transmission for almost a grand. Over $1200 for a rebuilt one.. ""

You have the datsun 5 speed 210 transmission ? Does it have the rivergate conversion or the morrison kit?

Well This thread certianly just got a whole lot more interesting....NICE !!!

Ray you really lucked out on this one, the rivergate conversion is the perfered here, but if the datsun 5 speed is installed and working well with ither of the 2 conversion kits... and the car is decent with little to no rust... this could be a $3000 car very easily, id seriously go ahead and do the extra and get it titled... it will pay huge dividends to do so... its just paper work, not actually wrench turning

When your ready to post photos ... let us know

Flip phone! haha, yeah right! Good try.

Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Ray,

Being a parts car or a car to put back on the road depends a lot on what state's DMV system you are working with. In Kentucky, for example, there are provisions in the regulations to register an old car for which no paperwork exists.

Charley
C R Huff

Charlie...

Didnt phil down in florida face alot of those same.issues when he wrecked his car and bought a parts car and ran dead into red tape,and wouldnt approve his car for lic untill he could legally prove his parts (car) was not stolen...I cant remember how he got around that, but he is a lawyer... SO there is that....haha


There has been some rumblings in missouri gov to look into doing similar, I guess some idiots are trying to claim a modern 2012 mustanges are actually 1969 fastbacks that are heavliy modified .. with todays modren tech hmmmm, not!

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Title?? Yes, I could "lien sale" the car. It is documented as to the storage at the body shop. I have an avenue to do that for $100. I also have a dozen other projects in the works and choose not to get too deep into this one. I do appreciate all the help you guys have put forth. I know nothing about any Datsun reverse gate transmissions, the ebay/Craigs list search was for MG transmissions and someone else was reading off their "Smart phone"...
I assumed, (maybe an error on my part), that a MG enthusiast/collector might be very happy to get a complete, (running gear/interior and a few body accessories) parts car. Where better to find such a person than a MG enthusiasts web site?? Maybe I should have just let it die in the crusher as it appears every MG out there already has a perfect drivetrain and no need of this one...
I put it in the local listings and see what happens..
Ray
R Burnett

Hmm

My apologies ray, when you said the transmission was over a $1000 I just assumed you meant you had a datsun 5 speed conversion those are about $1000 to $1500, the everyday common ribby 4 speed are normally around $50 to $100

So if you do have the datsun 5 speed .. id title the car, because you clearly have something of value... but if its just the ribby 4 speed then no I wouldnt bother titling the car

Crushing it or not crushing...for me personally and very selfish postion id say crush it, one less midget on planet earth makes mine just a little more valuable

But if you got nothing or very little investment into it... id also play up the hot rod angle to what your also advertising as possiable options

As an example you can get a geo metro engine, convert to 4 small su carbs and a crank trigger ignition, and aftermarket turbo, slap on a suskie side kick 5 speed transmission and cut down a dana 60 rear end, do a tube shock conversion and big brake convesion and.have a really nice fun hot rod ... would be one way of marketing it

Sorry these cars dont do well with V8 engines

But anyway ray ...good luck with what ever it is you do selling it locally or crushing it, im.sorry we couldnt have been much more help... there is only so much that we can offer when working with just the written word unfortnatly... beyound that its just guessing and imagination

We certianly appericate you stopping by and sharing with us, if you do sell it on by all means please share our forum with the new owners

Thanks for.playing ray, your always welcome back... even if you do only have a flip phone... hahahaha

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

In the words of the Two Ronnies, "Stop, you're killing me"

Dave O'Neill 2

ray,
One last note ... if the car has an actual wooden steering not the little plastic wooden wheel but a real wood and even better.vintage wood wheel and your going to crush the car... definatly keep that, those have become the cats, and a vintage wooden wheel can almost buy you a cottage in the south of france

A daily common les liston wooden wheel went for over $2500 about 2 months ago...15 years ago you could pick them up everyday for $200

So just a heads up before you crush it

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Dave...

I belive id phrase it as

"Mommy, please make the bad man stop"

Haha

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

I also have a dozen small bottles of British Leylend wire smoke used to restore original wiring harnesses...

My version of a hot rod is a Crower injected big block Chevy in a 18' flatbottom APBA Sprint Boat...(racing on a circle course running Four 1 1/4 laps, Five mile, wide open, heats. 4 heats per weekend of racing 118+ down the straights and turning left). IMO, anyone can build an engine to last 1/4 mile, although some don't......

I do happen to have a new, very short, Ford 9" rear end assembly laying around...
BTW, back in the 80s I helped a friend convert a Triumph GT6 into a 200 HP roller-skate. Aluminum Olds 215, Muncie 4 gear, and a Vette independent rear end....
Then we built, from the floor up, a Bonneville 2.0L Stream Liner that crashed twice at over 230 and both drivers walked away. The second crash destroyed the car, but not the driver...
To say this aint my first rodeo would be a fairly accurate statement... But no, I have no intentions of even the remotest attempt of putting a V8 in this MG. If it was a 1960s Austin Healy, maybe....Those "Heavrolets" were fun to watch...
Ray
PS It really is a "flip phone", and all texting is blocked....
R Burnett

Boy, I'm worn out. I hate working with mangled sheet metal... I chained the rear axle to a semi trailer landing gear, and a come along to my forklift and pulled the core support back forward.. The radiator was jammed into and under the rack mounts... This thing had a huge radiator for such a small car...Pure green antifreeze came out when the lower hose was disconnected.
I pulled the fan back straighter, and the water pump spins just fine and putting the belt back on by hand by turning the fan, turned the engine over until it came up on compression. The engine oil looks like it was changed yesterday, like new, even smelled new... I'm charging the battery, which also looks new, and now that everything is out of the way I'll put some gas in the carbs, water in the engine, and see if it will bark. From what I've seen this thing will run!!!
Did all these cars have front disc brakes??
Now that the motor has had the dirt removed it sure looks like a recent install, very clean...
Ray
R Burnett

Ray, all, or all but the very oldest had discs up front. Good luck with your cave man body work.

Charley
C R Huff

It RUNS!!... The electric fuel pump even works... I squeeze bottled the carb supply hose, and it fired right up... I could hear the electric pump humming, so I added a gallon to the tank and it ran, idling, on it's own for 3-5 minutes.. I did fill the block/head with water from the lower hose but never got it warm enough to open the thermostat..gauges showed 120*, and 60psi oil pressure.... There must be another temp source because there was one near the top radiator hose on the rad tank....Or, maybe the temp gauge was reading air temp here in the desert....
Anyway, the engine sounds great idling...
Ray
R Burnett

Congrats ray,

Those are good #s ... 120 for mid summer in Arizona after 3 minutes...id probably go ahead and drop in a new stat being its sat for 6 years...or at least pull it and run it naked... no point damaging the engine for something so simple and 5 minutes of time

the 60 psi is really good also...once warmed up to temp im guessing it will drop to 40psi agian very healthy...a basic general rule of thumb is 10 psi for each 1000 rpm

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Yeah, I don't have a lot of faith about the temp reading since the capillary gauge tube is hanging in the breeze. The main thing is the fact that it does run and sounds good, like a little sewing machine while idling. The carbs seem awfully stiff, so I didn't try to rev it up for fear of bending something that just needs some tlc to work again...
Now I can honestly say to a potential buyer, it does run, I personally heard it run. For that matter, I can start it for a buyer and let them hear it also... No key, so it was hot wired and the starter jumped...
Ray
R Burnett

The capillary tube is hanging out...?



####Yeah, I don't have a lot of faith about the temp reading since the capillary gauge tube is hanging in the breeze.####



Hmmm, I probably wouldnt start it to much as that would indicate there is no coolant in the engine

But these little engines are designed to take a lickin so I wouldnt worry to much

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

"MG Midget vin number location??"

When I got my Sprite back in 1977, it didn't have a VIN plate. To this day I have no idea what the true numbers are.

In their place, there are numbers made up by me, and submitted and accepted by DVLA swansea, as being 'pukka'.

If you don't have a VIN plate, it doesn't matter that much. ;).


Lawrence Slater

The temp "tube" WAS attached at the upper radiator tank next to the upper hose.... The radiator is OUT of the car. That is why I filled the block/head with the garden hose stuffed and clamped into the lower radiator hose... The upper hose was turned vertical, but since the thermo didn't get warm enough to open, the water just sat there.... After 3-5 minutes idling I could still put my hand on the block and it was just warm to the touch...
I don't plan to run it again unless a buyer wants to hear it run....
Ray
R Burnett

This thread was discussed between 16/07/2015 and 02/08/2015

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