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MG Midget and Sprite Technical Oil from bell housing via jiggle pin hole BBS discussion at MG-Cars.info
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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Oil from bell housing via jiggle pin hole
| Well, I've got the Frog nicely set up for the Le Mans classic so decided to change the engine oil now the newly rebuilt engine has done 550 miles. Jacked up the front of the car to aid oil flow towards the drain hole, dived underneath, spanner in hand and saw about 2 spoons full of black oil dripping from the bell housing where the jiggle pin is located. Is this to be expected? Presumably the jiggle pin is there for a purpose. Now, I'm panicking because a fried of mine (Neil) is also getting his Frog ready and had his engine rebuilt by the same guy who rebuilt mine. Neil came to my house on Friday to put some miles on his engine and experienced copious oil loss in the same way. I have only lost about 2 spoons full (and it probably only exited my bell housing because I jacked the front up) but Neil lost 2 litres in about 10 miles of driving. Is my panic justified? Some advice would be helpfull, hopefully it will allay my fears. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| 2 liters of oil lost in 10 miles would freak me out I love coke a cola alot, but I doulbt I could drink a 2 liter bottle of coke inside of normal 10 miles I really dont know what to say....maybe split a rental uhaul flat bed truck and tow them back and forth, that way. Id think 2 tables spoons is normal on a new engine esp.if its just being broke in But His sounds more catastrophic ... like a broken piston Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Depends on the mileage on Neil's engine, if new with very low miles and the rings not yet fully bedded in then I've seen that type of oil loss on one of mine but all settled down by 100 miles and minimal loss thereafter. |
| David Billington |
| Thanks for the words of confidence. Neils engine had about 150 miles on it and it was it's first time out on a motorway so the first time it had experienced sustained high engine speeds. Along with another club member (Mike) the engine/gearbox were removed and split. When the backplate was removed under the little canister that covers the oil pump they found a pin about 2mm diameter and 5 to 6mm long. This turned out to be one of the two pins that stop the two halves of the pump from rotating. How the pin came out is anybodys guess and Mike, with a lifetimes experience with A series engines, had never seen it before. Maybe there are some cheap and nasty oil pumps in circulation at the moment. Maybe it was just bad luck. I just hope that the pump in my engine is not similarly afflicted. I think my pump was from the same source as it's builder was the same person and the engines were both rebuilt within 8 weeks of each other. Here's hoping. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| ####they found a pin about 2mm diameter and 5 to 6mm long. This turned out to be one of the two pins that stop the two halves of the pump from rotating. #### Hmmm.... I think not !!! The pump iirc are a sealed unit, and has 2 course screws holding it togather and then 2 more screws attaching it to the engine block That is one huge freakin pin, im thinking its from the flywheel or the engine backplate at the top that guides the transmission into place between the 2 bolts If neil has 150 miles on his new engine, A series 1275... id look at his evac system ... the hose from the timing cover to the Y pipe at the carbs....if its not functioning properly, he can get alot of oil leaking out the real scroll seal If it is functioning properly, it may need to be pulled and torn apart and see whats going on, it could be the rear scroll seal area wasnt installed correctly Is there oil mist shooting out the vent hole in his oil cap ?? Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Rob, This is going to sound bad and rude, but give it some serious thought Try and avoid neil until you have your engine up and running, broke in, and have some confidance built into it. What I mean is, you WERE on the same path, but the 2 of you have now hit a split Y in the road, and are now the 2 of you are traveling alone on your own paths, completely separate of each other I think your engine is fine, from what your saying, its a fair guess to say neils engine has some issues that may not be easy or cheap to deal with It would be very easy to say from your perspective that whats happening to neil will happen to you as well, and no doulbt you probably will have some issues along the way, thats half way normal, but it would he a mistake to compare the 2 engines as the same ... I just think if your around neil and his engine you will project / imagine his issues will eventually become your issues and you will never trust your engine or have confidance in it Trust me, I know what a lack of confidance in an engine is like... you dont want to go there if you dont have to I wish neil the best, I really do, but he is on a differant path then you are, who knows why the 2 engines are performing differantly Hang in there rob Just a couple notes of common mistakes breaking in an engine to avoid 1. Use cheap non special no additives 20/50 motor oil 2. Make sure you follow the camshaft manufactures break in procedure... normal run the cam at 2500 rpm for 20 minutes as soon as its started the first time...check with the cam manufacture or the engine buider for the details 3. Dont baby this thing... the rougher you treat it, the better it will break in... granted you dont want to hit rpms in the 12,000 range but treat it like you stole it The problem with babying the engine and use good quality motor oils with anti wear additives ... is just that, the engine will not wear / break into its self...you want friction, metal on metal scrapping each other, if it dosnt, its going to be some big problems One area that you can really screw up is the piston rings, if they dont wear into the cly walls with in a 100 to even 500 miles, you get whats called glazing... its the engine oil essentially baking onto the cly walls making them very slick and smooth and the rings wont bed into the cly for a good tight seal, and then you get a wicked case of blow by and oil gets into the combustion chamber to be burned, and gasoline drains past the rings to get into the the sump and contaminate the oil Good luck rob... you really need to look out for you right now, once you have built confidance in your engine then you can be of help to neil Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Thanks prop, I think! I think the 2 pins keep the stator and 2 halves of the body in a fixed relationship. The 2 course screws keep it together so it doesn't fall apart and the two bolts are the real physical attachment to the block. I found an old pump last night and the 2 pins do exist. If I have time I will post a photo. Your advice to avoid Neil may not be too practical. We aim to travel down together (just in case), go on the same ferry, stay at the same hotel. It will be difficult but I'll give it a try. Does not talking to Neil for 8 days count? Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Rob - I can't imagine losing 2 litres - nearly half of his oil - in 10 miles - in fact two litres wouldn't get out of the jiggle hole in that time. When Neil's engine was split from the gearbox, was the bellhousing full up with oil? |
| Nick and Cherry Scoop |
| Nick. Everything was soaked in oil. The flywheel picked it up and flung it everywhere inside the bell housing. It took it's time getting out through the jiggle hole but meanwhile it was liberally distributed inside. The first sign was a sudden drop in oil pressure. It dropped to 0, recovered to 40, but dropped back to 0 again. Neil drove off the motorway (luckily he was near an exit), drove to a service station (again luckily only a few hundred yards away) and checked his oil level. Nothing on the dipstick so he bought 2 litres to get it back onto the dipstick and above min mark. By the time he got to my house it was off the dipstick again with a small pool ending up on my drive. Nasty. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| What a nightmare for him. I bet he had a bit of clutch slip on the way to yours! |
| Nick and Cherry Scoop |
| Rob. When your and Neil's engines were rebuilt, do you know if the "moustache" piece on the back of the engine was removed or disturbed. The correct positioning of it is critical to the operation of the rear scroll. Having said that, I can't see it being responsible for the huge oil lost Neil has experienced, unless it's missing altogether! Hope you sort it in time for LeMans. Bernie. |
| b higginson |
| Not sure Bernie, but I wouldn't be surprised. I have a rocker cover with vent pipe I'm going to fit vented to atmosphere just in case it is a crank-case pressure problem. I'll do an oil change tonight and take it for a long run and see what happens. BTW, should I change the gearbox oil at the same time? When cold synchro on second is very slow and care is needed going into second. When it warms up it's no problem. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| NO, DO NOT vent to ..atmosphere!!! If you do, you will suffer the same type of oil lose as neil... You want the carbs to create a vacume inside the crankcase to hold the oil inside the engine...if there is no vacume (venting to atmosphere) or worse a positive pressure the oil will shoot out the rear scrol seal This is exactly what I was refering to... you can not allow what is happening to neils engine effect how you see your engine....you have made comments to this 4 times now dont follow him in his woes You must stay the course that your on, neils woes are effecting the perception of your engine... yours is fine, dont 2nd guess your self...stay the path, neil has to walk his own road of damnation to find salvation Do not allow the misfortune of neils failure to effect your perception of your engine... stay the path your on. Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Wait on the gear box, and let it warm up, if something goes wrong in your engine you want to be able to focas solely on it and not multiple issues that can muddy your thinking Once you have 3000 or so miles and alot of confidance on the engine then branch out to other projects Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| What's special about 1275 engines? The earlier ones vent to atmosphere. My Frog vents to atmosphere. In fact, the 1330 I built for Little Blue vented to atmosphere. Is it really true that vacuum in the manifold sucks the oil back into the engine via the rocker chamber? |
| Nick and Cherry Scoop |
| I thought the 1275 engine had problems with positive crankcase pressure especially on rebuilt engines due to blow by at the pistons. There was a thread recently that went on and on about this problem. I already have a timing chain breather to the carb so putting another breather vented to atmosphere would only improve the situation if crankcase pressurisation was my problem. Anyway, I can loose nothing by trying. The image attached shows the two pins in the oil pump that I was referring to earlier. On Neil's pump one had come out completely and was inside the little canister that covers the pump body and clamped by the backplate. Rob 
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| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Nick - in answer to your question, two things came together with the 1275 engine that resulted in the different crankcase breather system, as compared to earlier engines. First the higher output, increased capacity and higher revving engine produces more piston blow by. And the second thing was the invention of Positive Crankcase Ventilation which although it had been around as a concept since the early '50s, really only caught on in the late '60s, largely driven by Californian legislation on smog control. The Wiki entry on this explains the background quite well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankcase_ventilation_system The "jiggle pin" is there to keep the bell housing drain hole clear as without it the hole would become blocked. Oil dripping here rather suggests a leak from the pump housing rather than from the rear crank seal. Leakage from the latter in quantity would be more likely to manifest itself by oil coming down the gap between sump and backplate. |
| Guy Weller |
| Yes rob You do stand to loose... any place there is a leak you will loose vacume, weather its the valve cover, the dip stick, the dip stick holder, the timing chain gasket, oil pan gasket ...ect ect anything oil related with a weak seal will reduce crank case vacume..with the carbs only pulling 2 psi (3 bars??) Of vacume you want to keep as much of that 3 bars as you can...which isnt much On a new engine there will be blow by...but only for as long as it takes for the rings to bed in...then you shouldnt have any and there will be no oil leaks If your engine is well sealed , then the only thing producing a positive pressure will the moving internal parts...and that pressure will be sucked out by way of the carbs applying suction Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Sorry...im a bit confused on neils oil pump In the photo...is this BEFORE the engine was rebuilt, that the pin was discovered in the oil pump housing canister ? Or ... Is this photo taken after the rebuild when the engine was seperated from the transmission If it the later... then I have a real problem with the engine builder, that oil pump is clearly used, and not just slightly, anytime an engine it rebuilt the oil pump should be replaced, id say that explains niels engine loosing oil pressure to zero on the interstate ...the oil pump is worn out Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| " that explains niels engine loosing oil pressure to zero on the interstate" No Prop, oil pressure dropped to zero because the oil leakage had dropped the oil level in he sump to below the level of the pick up tube. That's why it recovered, and then dropped again - oil surge combined with low sump level. |
| Guy Weller |
| Prop, I do see what you are getting at. The ideal would be to have negative crankcase pressure so that the gasses from piston blow by are sucked out of the engine. Negative pressure would also aid the effect the scroll oil seal. The thing these engines don't need is positive pressure because that will stop the scroll seal working and may cause oil to be blown past any oil seal if it gets really high. I have crankcase ventilation from the front timing cover aided by the vacuum produced by the carb to which it is connected. But, what if this is insufficient to stop pressurisation of the crankcase. I could fit a rocker cover with a vent pipe and then I have two choices. 1/ I could vent it to atmosphere or 2/ plumb it into the carb as well with a Y piece. In the case 1/ if I previously suffered positive crankcase pressurisation, venting to the atmosphere will reduce the pressure. In the case 2/ if I previously suffered positive crankcase pressurisation plumbing it into the same pipe connected to the carb will do very little to reduce the pressure because the carb will produce the same amount of vacuum as before but this time it is shared between the timing cover ventilation and rocker cover ventilation. My contention is that venting to atmosphere will reduce any possibility that I have positive crankcase pressure. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| The image is an old pump I just happened to have handy to show the two pins. On Neil's engine one of the pins was found inside the canister when the backplate was removed. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Rob, You are missing the point about what is known as "positive crankcase ventilation". It means an ACTIVE (i.e.positive) system of extracting excess pressure from the crankcase. Employed with the purpose of reducing crankcase pressure below ambient and thus preventing oil from being pushed out past the rear crank seal. The best that ventilating to atmosphere could ever hope to achieve is ambient pressure inside the crankcase, and as blow by will still be occurring this is unlikely as there will still be a pressure gradient. Worse, as pressure reduction via the designed Y piece is achieved because of the matched restricted air entry through the ventilated oil filler cap, adding an open rocker cover vent to atmosphere will allow the air flow to reverse and too much air to be drawn in by that route and the system will then never achieve the designed negative pressure. |
| Guy Weller |
| You will always have positive pressure in the crank case, any time the engine is running, due to the pistons moving up and down If you vent to atmosphere... you will loose some of the suck, which there is not alot of already Take a straw and a glass of soda pop, suck the soda thur the straw, now put a hole in the straw below your lips and above the soda line and suck agian to see what happens... you cant suck near as much soda pop thur the straw with the same amount of effort Its the exact same thing with the evac system...a small hole anywhere in the oil system will reduce the amount of vacume in the crankcase and thus allowing the positive pressure more latidtude to creat by pass Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Rob, Venting the rocker cover to atmosphere may prevent positive crankcase pressure, but what you actually need is negative crankcase pressure. That can only be achieved with closed circuit breathing, i.e. sealed rocker cover, vented oil filler cap (very important) and a single vent hose from the timing cover to the side of the carburettors via the 'Y' piece. Anything else can allow fumes to escape and oil to pass through the rear crankshaft scroll. I don't think you have a problem, so stick with the standard set-up. Richard |
| Richard Wale |
| "You will always have positive pressure in the crank case, any time the engine is running, due to the pistons moving up and down" - not strictly true Prop, because as 2 pistons move down to pressurise the case, the other two move up to compensate. (although at high speed there is sufficient time lag for this to cause some pressurisation) Most of the crankcase pressure is caused by blow-by past the rings at each detonation - which is why it is worst on a pre- bedded in engine, and on a worn out engine. |
| Guy Weller |
| Thanks rob...about the oil pump To much going on with this thread...to track it all Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| hmmmm...I do agree with you on the blow by pass, but theres always moving parts that are going to create some positive pressures Wheather its pistons, crank, cam, lifters, push rods ect ect But I think as far as robs situation, we are all in agreement No vented vave cover and the standard evac system setup Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Yes, not for the first time Prop, we are in agreement! |
| Guy Weller |
| Hi all, yep got it. But isn't PCV a misnomer? We are trying to achieve negative crankcase pressure so shouldn't it be NCV? I read the wikipedia on PCV and I agree with that for the original application. i.e. engines likely to be submerged where PCV would prevent water ingrees into the engine. Or does the P mean positive because they are positive steps to aid crankcase ventilation rather than positive meaning higher than atmospheric pressure? I shall obtain a Y piece and plumb into the existing system and see what happens. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Heard from Neil about his oil pump problem. He got a replacement from that company that rhymes with TOSS. It turned out to be the wrong one. It wouldn't fit under the canister. So he got one from Frogeye spares which fitted. BUT when they torqued up the bolts there was still a little movement of the oil pump against the engine. So the bolts were taken out, shortened by 2 to 3mm and put back in. When torqued up the pump was fixed perfectly. He has no idea why the bolts were bottoming out in the holes. Dirt in one hole maybe but all 3? no I can't believe that. BTW his engine is 1098cc and TOSS do list two different bolts for 1098 and 1275. Somehow, they may be the wrong bolts but why did they work ok with the original (pre rebuild) oil pump? One of the mysteries of the universe. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| PCV can be taken to mean either Pressure Control Valve, or Positive Crankcase Ventilation. In the latter Positive rather than Passive! - which would cause even more confusion!! |
| Guy Weller |
| Good for neil, The Problem is, the oil pump is not the source of his problems He ither has a busted piston, a broken ring, huge problems with his evac system, glazed the cly really bad, the crank shaft scrol seal was machined incorrectly, or the rear seal was installed poorly... plus a whole host of other problems involving assembly and machining... I hate too say it, but he has a long road ahead of him, at least he will get really good at pulling and installing the engine Poor chap, I hope he gets lucky soon, its going to be a LONG summer pulling the engine in and out over and over to trace down the problem from so many differant possiabilities Maybe my long nightmare spirit of tracking down and killing grimlins has possessed him now Is neil running Su carbs or something else Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Rob, from the descriptions and information available, I think that your and Neil's problems are different. Which is I think what you hoped for. In Neil's case that if that loose pin is the one nearest to the B in Birmingham, in your photo, then its absence gives a 1/8" sized hole directly out of the pumped, pressurised side of the oil system. Not surprising that it would then discharge 2l of oil in 10 miles of high speed cruising! Tiresome, but at least the solution is clear! In your case, 2 little old spoonfulls, spoonfulls, spoonfalls - - - from the jiggle pin hole is certainly more than there should be. But as you guess, this could well be down to jacking the front of the car up high, especially if it was left like that for a while. I would "monitor the situation" to get more evidence before taking any action. As for the engine breathing arrangement. With a freshly rebuilt engine I would return the system to standard spec, breathing via the Y piece to the carbs. BMC had clearly spent a lot of experimental time matching an improved crankcase breathing system to the late, 1275 versions of the A series engine which were frankly by then struggling with the absence of a proper crank seal in the design. The sump extractor system is a finely balanced arrangement but works well if set up as designed with the right oil filler cap and plumbing arrangements. Tamper with that, at your peril! |
| Guy Weller |
| Prop, don't add to Neil's misery. The problem is the oil pump brought on by bolts that are too long to hold the pump tightly to the block. With correct torque on the bolts insufficient force was used to press the pump to the block. It was probably ok while he was tootling around on slow roads but as soon as he went on a sustained high speed run, the oil lifted the pump body away from the block sufficiently to allow oil to escape past the gasket. This oil pressure was undoubtedly enough to force one of the pins out, then his problems really started. Once the pin was out there was a free passage for the oil into the canister thence into the bell housing. I think Neil (and me) should look on the bright side. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| I agree with Guy, I have the standard Y piece set up, correct cap and plumbing and I don't have any leaks from the scroll even at high speed cruising. I have suffered the dreaded blue smoke problem but that was cured by a new filler cap and hose from the timing cover canister I did once get the two spoonfuls ! when I jacked the car up at the rear and oil ran out of the gearbox through the 1st motion shaft. |
| Bob Beaumont |
| Apologies for my earlier inaccurate post about Little Blue's 1330 engine. It occurs to me that there might have been a spigot on the HIF44 for the rocker cover breather, which I connected up. |
| Nick and Cherry Scoop |
| Sorry again. I know this is water under the bridge, but I found a picture which tells me that it was the timing cover vent that I connected to the HIF. Just for the record. 
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| Nick and Cherry Scoop |
| Two unrealated comments arising from earier posts: Oil pump didn't fit under the cannister: This is because some of the 1098 pumps around are based on the higher capacity 1275 pump, which has a slightly bigger body. It doesn't foul by much and is easily fitted by machining (or filing) a tad off the housing, which has plenty of meat to spare. In return for this you get far better oil pressure than the original 1098 pump (that's the version that fits under the cannister) could ever deliver when the oil gets hot. Regarding the effectiveness of the PCV v venting to atmosphere: We had a customer arrive in town with a newly reconditioned engine in her TF1250. It leaked oil, about a 6" puddle each time it stopped. The underneath of the car was well preserved against rust, as was her garage floor. The reconditioner who did the job was 400 miles away so asked us to look at it. There was a bit of excess clearance in the scroll housing but that's all. He should really have machined it back to spec when he did the engine, but neither he nor customer really wanted to go there by the time we saw it. So we suggested retro-fitting a PCV valve. They said try it. We did. Ploblem solved. Completely. |
| Paul Walbran |
| Guy, I didnt even think about that conserning the oil pump...that probably is the cause |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Hey paul If your still there....I am curious...in my situation its a dead issue, as I have zero leaking from the scrol seal...(yes, even with oil in the engine...haha)... my interest is purly educational as of now I put a vac gauge on the hose from the timing cover to the carbs and got around 2 psi ( thats how the gauge is calibrated) 3 bars ?? If I reduced that evac hose inside diameter by 1/2, would that double or increase the amount of vac im pulling from the crank case...and if It did, would it make a differance as in guessing the quanity of vac would be reduced by the same amount as the vac increase I hope that made scence Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| PCV? Breather? Cue the mammoth "oil drawn into carburettor" post! Lawrence, wake up! You're ON! |
| Graeme W |
| Graeme Ha ha ha....Are you trying to release the kracken! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AamVyDW-t_A |
| Steven Devine |
| Prop, I think I know what you mean: Does reducing the size of the hose increase the vacuum? The short answer is, I don't know, I haven't tried it. My guess would be probably not, as the inlet to the breather system is a little hole in the oil filler cap, a hole which is well smaller than even the hlaf size hose. |
| Paul Walbran |
| Hi all. After changing the engine oil and filter and the gearbox oil I took it for a 20 mile gentle drive to see how much oil leaks out. The attached image shows the oil on my garage floor. At the halfway point (the pub!) there was a smaller oil stain in the carpark when I reversed out of the parking spot. The sheets of paper are A4 size and the front of the car would have been on the left. There seems to be a single drip from the front pulley oil seal. A few drips from the rear sump oil seal and quite a large blob from the bell housing jiggle pin. The gentle drive was along minor roads with 40 to 50mph max with a rev limit of about 4000 rpm. Is this anything to worry about bearing in mind I'm going to Le Mans for a week from this Sunday? Rob 
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| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Rob, Anything to worry about - probably not. Keep an eye on the dipstick level, but be careful NOT to overfill! What is your present arrangement regarding the breather pipes on your engine? A point that is often missed is that, when working properly the PCV system will reduce, and even prevent oil from working its way along the crank "seal". But when you stop any residual oil on the crank is then free to dribble out of the back so you get a relieving puddle. It doesn't mean that it is leaking out at that rate all the time, just when you switch off. |
| Guy Weller |
| That looks like quite a lot. I rebuilt my engine (1275) recently and was slightly appalled by the oil leak from the rear of the engine. (Similar to yours.) Then fitted a vacuum take off from my hif44 su carb to the rocker cover and now only have the odd spot once in a while. Cheers Tim |
| T Dafforn |
| Guy. At the moment I have an HIF44 with pipe connected to timing chain cover breather. I'm going to add a new rocker cover with a breather pipe and use a Y piece to plumb into the same connection on the carb. The big pool is coming from the bell housing jiggle pin which is what worries me, especially after Neil's recent experience because the same guy rebuilt both our engines and he always sources his bit from the same supplier. Worried of Wilmslow! Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Rob, have you had a good look at the oil on that paper, I was thinking as non-mechanical, non-technical person incapable of all but the simplest work on the car that for oil that's just been changed for new it looks awfully black in part of the pooling - unless it's just a case of some of the previous dirt from the engine or elsewhere has remained at the bottom and has been washed out with the fresh clean oil how dirty was your previous oil, or is the black from something else, I'd have a smell and feel of that black stuff if it's simply oil then it shows how thorough you need to be to get a good oil change or that something needs more of a clean |
| Nigel Atkins |
| "a new rocker cover with a breather pipe and use a Y piece to plumb into the same connection on the carb" Sounds ok, if I interpret that correctly. But don't have a second "port" on the rocker cover left open to atmosphere, as this will just destroy any suction set up via the timing cover. And do use the correct vented oil cap - it has to have just the right amount of restriction to allow air to be pulled in, - but not too fast! |
| Guy Weller |
| 2X guy, but then we have both been saying that over and over for the past 50 threads Also... YOU CAN NOT LOOK AT NEILS ENGINE, and 2nd guess yourself that the same will happen to you The paper catcher... that is not alot of oil, maybe 1/2 a teaspoon...a little oil goes a verylong way, you have to remember, paper is very pourous, it is meant to absorb liquid, same as concrete or drive way dirt, so any drops of oil on tolit paper, cotten t shirts, or a puppy dogs long fur coat are qlways going to expand out and look way worse then they really are. Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
Unless of course you invest in The Acme Drip Tray. Suitably lined and changed every 6 months, not one drop of oil escapes this wonderful device.Soon to appear on Dragon's Den, even Duncan Bannatyne will wet his pants to invest in this one.
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| Fergus Pollock |
| Sorry fergus, I cant understand what im looking at in the 2nd photo Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
It's one photo.You're looking at a sump to gearbox drip tray, made from shiny brass and attached between the chassis rails. It's there to catch anything that might drip between the sump and rattle pin,and hides any embarrassing incontinence.
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| Fergus Pollock |
| Can I have one with a tap in one corner so I can drain it occasionally. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Just heard back from Neil tonight and it's not good news. After he and Mike put a new pump on he thought he had solved it. Engine out, new pump fitted and engine back in in about 2 days was some going. Everything was all going well but he just reported that after a good run with some motorway driving at 60mph he arrived back home, had his tea then checked and found a pool of oil on his drive. The dripping had stopped by this time so he checked his oil level and it was 1/4 inch below max. He started the engine and managed to check underneath with the engine running and it started to drip again. Now I can't believe that 2 pumps could be faulty so this must be something different. His engine is a 1098cc and is vented to atmosphere by a tube on one of the tappet chest covers. I asked him to run the engine, remove the oil filler cap and put his hand over it. He reported back that there was positive pressure in there. Is this a case of insufficient running in? It has only done about 200 miles so far. He also said that the dripping stops when he runs the engine with the filler cap off. BTW, it's a metal filler cap, not sure if it is vented. He is going to check to see if there is any pressure at the crankcase vent tube when the engine is running but that will be tomorrow now as it is almost dark. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| ####(((His engine is a 1098cc and is vented to atmosphere))) by a tube on one of the tappet chest covers. I asked him to run the engine, remove the oil filler cap and put his hand over it. He reported back that there was positive pressure in there. Is this a case of insufficient running in? It has only done about 200 miles so far.##### ""Long slow Sigh ...."" hmmmm. Guy, can you rephrase the problem and solution any more clearly... sorry, Im just not able to.. Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Prop, all 948 and 1098 engines were designed to vent to atmosphere but everyone keeps quoting the solution to problems with the 1275 engine which were designed to use PCV? The 948 and 1098 were designed to be vented to atmosphere. Before Neil's engine was refreshed (i.e. new piston rings, bore honed and new bearings and oil pump) it didn't have any problems. Infact, Neil had owned this car for 8 or so years and in that time it NEVER dripped even a single drop of oil. He kept it outside on a block paved drive and he was very particular about his block paving. But now it leaks like a seive. Now in the past millions of these engines have been rebuilt and as far as I am aware there were no problems with oil leaks during the run in period or after. Can you imagine a company reconditioning an A series engine and telling the customer "sorry mate, you must expect to lose an at least a pint a week all over your drive"! or "sorry dear customer but we can cure your problems by redesigning completely the engine crankase ventilation system because BMC did it wrong". The warranty claims, if this happened in the past, would close down most companies, which of course did not happen. So, constructive comments please. This engine was designed to be vented to atmosphere and it still is. I'm sure Neil is capable of adding crankcase ventilation, if that would cure the problem, but as it was not designed that way (i.e. no breather connections on the twin carbs) it would mean expense and (more importantly at the moment) take time that he does not have. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Rob - did he see where it was dripping from? Jiggle-pin hole, or between sump and backplate? |
| Nick and Cherry Scoop |
| Rob, my comments about the PCV system related to your slight leak on the 1275 engine. Not to the smaller 1098cc which uses a different and more basic system. On the latter it is essentially just vented to atmosphere, although the pipe extended down into the airstream below the car is supposed to provide some suction when at speed. Neils does sound like more of a problem. I would start by doing a compression test to check the rings. One could have broken on assembly giving a lot of blow by. Pity that sorting the oil pump issues hasn't cured it. |
| Guy Weller |
| Nick, definately dripping from the jiggle pin. Guy, I should be seeing Neil on Saturday and will do a compression test with him. I should hear from him today. He's taking off the breather to see if it may be blocked or restricted. I'm hoping for his sake that it is a pressurisation problem but I cannot see why that would force the oil into the bell housing. Usually, it exits between the sump and backplate. That also applies to my little oil leak. I've rebuilt Mini and Midget engines in the past (when Midgets were a current model) and I never experienced anything like the problems we are experiencing now. It's very frustrating. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Rob. The earlier 10CG engine may have vented to atmosphere, but the later 10CC engine had a PCV which vented into the inlet tract via a port on the inlet manifold, hence no facility on the carbs. Which engine is Neil's? Bernie. |
| b higginson |
| Bernie, I think Neil's is a 10MA from a Morris Minor. Not sure what inlet manifold it has but it is possible it has a screw in adaptor. I think if the vent connection is into the inlet manifold you need a PCV (valve) ? is that correct? Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Rob. Yes, the "log" type manifold has two ports. One for a spigot that connects via a short hose to thePCV. The other one has a blanking plug in it. Not sure what it's for. Servo? Not that a servo was ever fitted as standard. Bernie. |
| b higginson |
| Now ... im really confused !!! What carb set up does neil have, or for that matter do both of you have You said before that you both have a single SU hiff 44 carb, Now your saying you both have what I presume to be Dual SU HS carbs I admit.. im not up on the smaller A series, but my understanding is, if the engine is running on duel carbs the vented to atmosphere pipe placment is essential as it has to be a certian angle and length as it relates to the road surface...the faster you drive the more vac it will pull. If the engine is using a single HIF 44, then the vented pipe to atmosphere is no longer adequate, and the evac system needs to be upgraded to the 1275 type of evac system A broken ring is still a real possiabity... but something more serious to watch for because it now has 200 miles, and the rings havent sealed up yet is cly glazing Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| So why isnt neil on here talking to us? If neil came here directly, it would be far more efficiant time wise instead of a he said, then this gentleman said that and this guy was saying this, senerio we currently have going over the past several days Has neils engine been modified in anyway.. more compression, hotter cam, ect ect... if he has increased the horse power by very much, the old vent tube may no longer be up to par and needs to be revamped Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Prop. I have a single HIF44 and Howley Racing inlet manifold on a 1275. Neil has twin 1 1/8" SU's and standard inlet manifold on a 1098cc engine (although they may be 1 1/4", can't rightly remember). The engine at one time powered (if that's the right word) a Morris Minor. Neil's not really into BBS exchanges. He prefers tinkering to typing. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Prop, Neil's engine is bog standard as far as I know. Suspect it may be +20, not that it makes much difference. It was, before the refresh, 100% reliable. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Well Rob, Based on that above, I still think your is great shape... I just dont see any issues with your engine...yes its dripping a very minor amount, so did mine and about the same amount untill I got a few hundered miles .. now I keep constantly checking the oil for fear that its dry as a bone and always its at just below the max line right where I filled it to.. not a drop lost I know I keep harping on it, but you have NOTHING in common with neil, the big differance is ... you will be going to the big show, and having lots of fun, while neil will be downloading porn in his darkened bedroom 2 spoon fulls is fine for a new engine and the amount onthe paper you showed is very minimal...it just looks bad, like the saying... a little goes a long way, and it does, spend the time you have enjoying the ride get some miles on it before you go, that will really help to build your confidance in your new engine As for neil... well we the BBs wish him the best of luck, but theres not much we can do in a timely manner with communicating thur a 3 rd person While your at the big MG party, and neil is at home tinkering by all means let him know, he is more then welcome to come for a visit and discuss any issues he is having, while he is eatting supper, or watching tv, or anytime, the bbs is open 24 hours a day. And very easy to use should he change his mind. So are you packed and ready for your big adventure... being that niel wont make the show, maybe find a girl to take with you, that could be fun...or just put a photo copied mask of niels face on the girl, and it befcomes the best of both worlds Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Now that you recently mentioned that neils engine was for a morris minor... agian I dont know much about the smaller engines but Im wondering with it being differant from what came inbthe car that perhaps the oil pump is still not the correct pump and could still be the reason for the massive oil losses Agian... just a pure random guess, appearently there are differances on oiling for the various types of 1275 ... so maybe that could apply to the smaller older A series as well... I know there used to be several differant types of oil pump drives, and where not able to be cross transfered ... a slot wouldnt fit a star drive ect ect, so if the builder didnt know, he may have just assumed and went with what should have been used on a midget 1098 Like I said... im just guessing and cant say for certian... but like you said, something is still very off because the screws are still to long and had to be shortened or they bottomed out thus the need to shorten then by several mm. To secure the pump Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Prop. WTF are you smoking? Neil IS going to LeMans, his engine IS sorted. It was all done in two days courtesy of Mike, Rob and Neil himself. He'll be there, strolling through the paddock wearing his best cravat, with his wife on his arm and a glass of Pimms in the other hand. Bernie. |
| b higginson |
| No bernie, Niels engine is still leaking like a sieve, its only slightly improved with the changing of the oil pump. If he is now loosing 2 liters of oil in what im guessing is 20 minutes compared to 2 liters in 10 minutes... he is not going far If he tries is, he would need a sudia Arabian barrel of oil to make it there.. one way. Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Rob, as Guy has put with the 1275 for best effect you want the standard black plastic filtered and vented oil cap rather than the bling chrome ones the standard filler cap has larger venting holes, possibly to allow for the enclosed wire mesh filter as you've done over 500 miles and an oil and filter change I'd get another 500 miles on asap and see how it is then and personally I'd do another oil and filter change then it's the colour of the oil dropping that makes me wonder what might be going on |
| Nigel Atkins |
| ""It's the colour of the oil dropping that makes me wonder what might be going on"" Funny you mention that nigel... when mine was pissing oil, it was black like that also, but now that its sealed up and no blow by taking place, my oil is really clean off the dip stick I think it must be a combo of fuel sipping past the rings and blow by that blackens the oil .... let me rephrase to bernie about neil, I got a much better retort From the movie Armageddon with bruce willis ""Niel is a dead stick, he not going to make it, hes going down, the independance (neil) is off the grid" ....that just sounds so much more cool. Hahaha |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| D Day for Neil is Saturday. Just talked to him by 'phone. I mentioned in an earlier post that his oil level had dropped by 1/4" when he checked the level after realising he was still dripping oil. He talked to Mike (who helped with the pump change) and aparently when he put oil in the engine he filled to the max but DIDN'T put any in the filter before screwing it to the block. So that is an explanation for the 1/4" below max reading SO maybe the pool of oil made him over react and fear the worst. Anyway, he will give it a good run Saturday morning and check and decide then whether to go. Hopefully, it will make it. I don't fancy trying to keep up with him if he takes the Lexus instead. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| ###I mentioned in an earlier post that his oil level had dropped by 1/4" when he checked the level after realising he was still dripping oil. ### A 1/4 inch or a 1/4 of his oil....I took it to mean he lost a 1/4 of his oil If its a 1/4 inch of oil... what does that mean, a 1/4 inch of what location... the dip stick, the sump, ??? I thought you said after replacing the oil pump the thing was pissing all over his prized block driveway and your drive as well, Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| It didn't come out of the bellhousing so won't be relevant here, but while we are on oil leaks I once had a really tatty sump cleaned in the reconditioner's tank and discovered that doing so also cleans out the sealant between the sump itself and the spot welded attachments that form the groove for the main cap seal. So while the seal was well contacted radially, it wasn't made to expand sideways and seal between front and back of the groove and oil tracked down behind it and through the now-unsealed join between sump and add-on. Quite a lot of it! |
| Paul Walbran |
| Prop, see posting 26 June 2014 at 22:12:27 UK time. "The dripping had stopped by this time so he checked his oil level and it was 1/4 inch below max." that is 1/4" below maximum mark on the dipstick. Undoubtedly, Neil is suffering in the same way I am in that what looks a lot to us is, as you all tell me, nothing to worry about. I expect he looked at the oil under his car and equated it to the 1/4" drop in oil level. We all know 2 + 2 = 4 but sometimes if we worry it equals a lot more than 4. So, I'm all for it and I'm sure Neil will also take his Frog to France. Must remember to pack the 50 gallon drum of 20/50. Will it fit on the luggage rack? Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Nigel makes a good point about the oil filler cap. The correct plastic vented cap breathes better than the chrome one. I 'll still give Prop 10 to 1 that Neil will be there at LeMans in his Sprite. Now I'm going to bed to lose sleep about my clutch problem. They're coming to take me away Ha Ha! Bernie. |
| b higginson |
| Hi all, sorry to say but Neil will not be taking his Frog to France. He drove down to see me confident that if he took it easy on the drive to my house he would be ok. But, when he arrived he checked his oil level and it was below minimum. Before he set off he had checked it was at maximum. So quite a few pints have leaked out in 60 miles of driving. He topped up to max again before setting off back home and when he arrived it was again below minimum. It seems to be constant speed driving for a long time that causes it but there must be some other underlying problem making it a lot worse. The way it is he would be spending more money on oil than fuel with no prospect of it improving. He is really, really disappointed considering he has completely rebuilt it over the last 9 months. New floors and cills, wheel arches and much much more. Neil sends his thanks and I add mine for all the advice given over the last few days. He will be going in his other classic car (an MGBGT), small consulation considering all the hard work he has put in to get the Frog ready. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
| Rob, Thats really sad, I hate to hear that, buf at least he is still going and in a still very cool.car, im sure the time away from his frog and around.lots.of other MG guys will be a good bright spot for him to recharge his batteries Im sure we all wish him the best of luck when he returns with fresh eyes and a reinfigerated zest to take on the challange. Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Pity. Did you try a compression test for him? |
| Guy Weller |
| Thanks Prop. Guy, never got around to it, just run out of time but something to do when we get back. Thanks one and all. Rob |
| Rob aka MG Moneypit |
This thread was discussed between 23/06/2014 and 28/06/2014
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