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MG Midget and Sprite Technical Petronix Ignition system BBS discussion at MG-Cars.info
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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Petronix Ignition system
| I searched the archives and was surprised nothing came up on this, does anyone use it ? mine is going to be fitted tonight and I am curious as to others experience. . .anyone ??? |
| P Bentley |
| Did you spell pertonix correctly... should be a few 100,000 referance, I know im good for about 18,000 by myself...haha My personal opinion, as of the last 3 years...keep the points and condensor and the keep the kit in the packaging. Just put it in the boot somewhere for safe keeping, then on some dark night in october when its raining and cold and the points and condenser have to be replaced along side the road and your 100 miles from knowere special ... then install it, its fast and easy At one time, it was the cats meow when it came to LONG TERM reliability, in my experiance thats no longer the case, ive gone thur 3 in ten years, short term usage there awsome, and do the job very nicely The 2 issues ive had, is ... 1. Hinging !!!, .... the wire they use is become so incrediably cheap its better if they used dog snot wrapped in beacon for wire...due to the design of the kit the 2 wires that come out of the chip tend to hing back and forth at there chip entry point everytime the dissy vacume advance moves back and forth, so after a few 1000 miles the wire breaks down at the enty to the chip,then it starts to spark looking for a ground then it will eventually decide to release its blue smoke for a holiday...and it never returns 2. (Phazing) ...The last issue I had after figuring out how to defeat the hinging effect was a defect known as phazing... the company denies it, but people far smarter then me says it exist ... the chip looses the ability to its timing and advances by its self...NOT physically, but computer black magic .... mine advanced to 18 degrees iirc, thats never a good thing...I think phazing is rare... if you notice thing dont appear to run well and seems really out of time even though you just installed and know its correct and the coil keeps getting hot, and all the wiring is good, go back and check the timing.. if its suddenly way off... its the pertronix cheap, its phazing. Being your in the UK, why not try the (Simion BBC ) ???? (Help me out guys) its the same thing as the pertronix chip, and very well made plus a fraction of the cost In the end, unless your dissy is on its last leg and has lots of play in the ignition plate and the shaft woobles all over like a dash board booble head nun on a spring The points and condensors are really the way to as far as performance and reliablity ... once you source a good condenser or 2 One side note with pertonix they dont mention.... some of the rotor bugs are to tall once they sit on top of the round magnet base, and will compress the carbon pin and spring in the dissy cap to the max and will damage the cap fairly fast, so may need to sand off the bottom on the rotor bug 1/4 inch or so to give it the clearance it needs The one really good news I can report, if you have an issue and fry it, in 2 years they are very friendly on the phone and will replace it free without hassle, ... hmmm maybe thats actuallya bad thing if its so common...haha Sorry .... just my personal experiance |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Which kit are you installing ? I installed just the simonbbc points replacement and it was the best money I've spent on the car so far. |
| Andy Phillips (frankenfrog) |
| Oh also... be very careful playing around with your ignition wires and make sure none of them are chaffing... one spark and your hundred dollar bill wont even say good by as it burns out in a bright blue flash if your lucky enough to see it...it is easily fixable you just drag out a brand new $100 bengerimin and buy a new chip.... many have learned this while installing the 1st time Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| its called a Pertronix Ignitor. . .fit and forget is the claim !! I guess I will find out |
| P Bentley |
| I am a long time fan of the Pertonix / Aldon ignitor having them fitted to both my Sprites both of which are used both at home and abroad. On one the fitment was 10 years ago and on the other car not so long as it was a replacement for a pos earth Aldon that was fitted in the mid 90's and changed when I converted to neg earth but that original pos earth unit continues to serve on a club member's Mk2 Sprite to this day. I organise events abroad that are often 2500 miles + and usually recommend fitment of these units (together with a red rotor) for reliability and to date have had no known failures. Failure of another brand did however delay us at Arnhem on a Battlefield Tour. Peter Burgess has noted failures of another brand but unless he appears here that would require a trawl through the Archives. Alan www.masckent.org |
| Alan Anstead |
| Its not to late to send it back and get a simion bbc chip If you do risk it... keep the current points and condensor set up in a baggie with photo copy instrutions and the tools to reinstall and scratch marks for setting the timming in a small plastic baggie some place safe in the car... then if the chip gets fried your not screwed in the wrong part of town over night waiting for the auto parts store to open and hoping the got a set of points and condensors. But you should be fine for the 1st year with no issues to pop up... it takes awhile for the wiring to break down from hinging...and phazing is rare...so it will run like a champ for a pretty good time frame... Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Alan.... the key comment you made was, "" installed along time ago" not recently....those chips installed along time ago will no doulbt still be functioning along time from now Those in the past 10 years or so.... mmmm, NO! The key knowing if the pertronix is a short term kit vs an old pertronix that will last 50 years is the color of the wiring after 6 months If after a few months there installed and the wires are badly faded ... the red becomes light pink, and the black is lite gray... thats a short term chip, if the color of the wire is still vibrant after a few months... oh baby your good, shut the bonnet and never worry agian. Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Just to hit this horse one last time.... Its NOT the chip thats the problem, unless its phazing, and agian I belive thats rare Its the wiring .... its so low grade cheap it just cant hold up for very long...esp if its ""hinging" at the chip You solve that hinging effect at the chip, so there is no movement at that intersection, it should last a very long time ... untill the insulation washes off the 9 strands of aluminium inner wire Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| There have been no reported failures from the people that I know who have fitted them in the last ten years and my Frogeye is one of them. As I said I converted to a neg earth from a pos earth at a time when several of us were getting a discount. I am not one to opine just say as I find. Alan |
| Alan Anstead |
| Alan, Are the wires faded badly....if not, you may have one of the last good sets Like I said... the older ones will last forever Its not the chip that has the issue... its the super cheap wiring there now using Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| one of the dead giveaways that the pertronix is starting to fail will be a minor miss at higher sustained revs and will get worse over time....at that point look for cracking, tearing, and splitting at the cheap wires insulation at the chips intersection...you will need a mag glass to see the damge from the effects of hinging...there maybe even some black smoke burn residue where the ground black wire is starting to ark to a new ground at the Chips intersection.... at that time, you really want to make sure you have a good ignition system back up plan in place, cause its only a matter of time and there wont be further warning... it will just die suddenly and maybe a small backfire pop to celebrate the event...just plaese dont throw the burnt out chip on the road, it can do tire damage to other motorist Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| I've got two Pertronix's / Aldon ignitors and fitted another in my cousins MGB - both in original 25D's and Aldon yellow top dizzies. All within last 5-8 years not had any issues to date - more than I could say for points / condensers available now ! R. |
| richard boobier |
| Another vote for Simon BBC from me, fitted 3 years ago with no problems, cheap enough keep a spare in the boot. On offer at under £25 at the moment. |
| Pete Ottewell |
| Well I've got a Pertronix as well. Fitted 7 or 8 years and several thousand miles ago and it's been faultless. Never regretted it for a moment, a brilliant fit and forget mod and haven't needed to change the timing in years either. The only problem I had after fitting was I nicked through the insulation on one of the wires by pinching it with the dizzy cap. Lots of blue smoke, but a bit of insulation tape later and all was well Given you've hardly driven your car in the last 6 years Prop, I'm not sure what's gone wrong with yours |
| Matt1275Bucks |
| Given you've hardly driven your car in the last 6 years Prop, I'm not sure what's gone wrong with yours Haha... 6 years !!! I certianly felt like six years, actually felt closer to 18 years....but no, only just over 2.5 years ive been down....but yes I have to agree that was a long stretch...luckly thats over and done with, and drive it a few months to make sure the HG does what its supposed to do and start on the next project ... money and time permitting, and no it wont be engine related....haha Most likely front end rebuild, and modify... luckly I got almost all the parts Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Hi All I tend to think the Igniter/Pertronix is better than the Accuspark variety. We havent seen many Igniter/Pertronix failures, we are seeing more Accuspark failures as time passes. I think, if I was running Accuspark I would keep a spare to hand, if Igniter I would maybe keep points setup spare just in case. One also has to consider the Accuspark is nearly as cheap as buying points and condenser! The most reliable system in our view is the Lumenition optical ignition system, many still running 25 + years down the line....very very expensive these days I understand. A big YES to the red rotor arms. Peter |
| Peter Burgess Tuning |
| Hi Peter, I've noticed that you haven't commented on the 123 system. Is that because you don't want to be seen to "selling" or possibly that they haven't been going long enough? |
| G Lazarus |
| Hi Gary I like the 123s but they are very expensive when considering other systems. I think the Aldon Amethyst might be worth a bash but not set one up as yet. Peter |
| Peter Burgess Tuning |
| Another long term Pertronix user (mine an Aldon branded one), must have been fitted 15 years / many 10k miles. I carry a spare points setup distributor in a rear wing on long journeys. |
| Jeremy Cogman |
| I expect Mt P Bentley has twigged by now that in the UK the Pertronix Ignitor is sold as the Aldon Ignitor. http://www.aldonauto.co.uk/shop/product.asp?strParents=118&CAT_ID=45&P_ID=117 |
| Mike Howlett |
| I've just put an Amethyst on my Sprite in conjunction with previously fitted SimonBBC electronic ignition. It feels very strange plugging a laptop into a 56 year car! I've not had it on long enough to comment about reliability. It's very easy to install and the software is very clear and easy to use. The only negative so far is the standard method used to lock the distributor. Aldon provide a couple of O rings the idea being to fully extend the weights and then tie the spring mounting pins together with the o rings. This stops mechanical advance - in theory. One o ring snapped after about 50 miles! Fortunately I discovered it when going through the process of replacing the rings with springs but it could have been a breakdown situation. Aldon do suggest springs or wire-tying as prefered alternative. The best may well be to weld up the dizzy! With the electronic ignition I have found it difficult to set "static" because the old lamp across the points method no longer works so it has to be done running and hoping you can get tickover slow enough not to bring in mechancical advance. With the dizzy locked up the Amethyst lets you set it at TDC using a strobe without any other advance coming in. You can then set the static as an "offset" in the program and play around with the settings easily and accurately (and with clean hands!) I'm sure similar devices offer the same facility but I found it useful! THe Amethyst also takes a vacuum input or a throttle position sensor. |
| G Williams |
| I can understand Pete's economic idea of carrying a spare Simon BBC unit because he doesn't fully trust what he's bought but Jeremy's idea of carrying a whole spare points set up dissy for longer journeys is beyond me as the existing Aldon unit is most likely to fail on regular journeys, just basic statistics, and surely it'd be better to have a spare Aldon igniter at the ready for swap out I've got a fully electronic 123 dissy fitted to the engine and carry no spares - perhaps one day the gods will punish me for this Prop makes a good point about delicate wires but it would seem that the problem is often because of poor installation discipline |
| Nigel Atkins |
| You don't need to understand Nigel, the advice on this BBS has been to carry CB points in case your igniter fails. I chose to carry a spare igniter instead. So what? |
| Pete Ottewell |
| Moss still sell it as a Pertronix. R. |
| richard boobier |
| Aldon yellow and lumenition optronic for me. all from ebay a good few years ago for not many pennies at the time. I actually won 2 sets within minutes (always the way!) so have an Aldon red in a box some where and carry the the spare lumenition module in the car with the same multiplug so takes a few seconds to swap it in. Useful to prove the ignition wasn't the cause a few years back when the coil failed on the way to LeMans. |
| Dean Smith ('73 RWA) |
| Pete, get your specs on, I put I - can - understand based on the economics why you do carry a spare Simon BBC unit because you don't fully trust the fitted unit plus it's only a small box to carry around it's Jeremy carrying a full spare points dissy for long journeys . . . see previous post for more details as has been discussed before what spares people believe they must carry is very varied and up to them, no one is being forced to change or defend their believe in this matter I'm a lot happier spend more money and not worry about the unit fitted - economically possibly over the long term not such good value as your chosen method - previously I had an Aldon igniter head fitted to the existing (worn) dissy, because the 123 wasn't available for my model at the time, but to me at £80 for the Aldon igniter they were too expensive to buy one as a spare just in case |
| Nigel Atkins |
| I've been running a Crane XR700 for 7 years with no issues. I burnt out a Pertronix or 2 before that, but it was probably due to my carelessness. Crane=set it and forget it |
| P Burke |
| I fitted a Pertronix and red rotor 6 years ago. I carry spare points and a known working condenser as a back up. You'd carry these spares anyway even if you were running points and condenser wouldn't you?.............Well, wouldn't you? So what's wrong with carrying a spare electronic unit? As has been pointed out above, just take care not to pinch the wires in the dissy cap when fitting and a Pertronix should give years of trouble free driving. Bernie. |
| b higginson |
| I've got a pretty well new Aldon ignitor sitting in it's box in my garage. I fitted it on a whim (well on my Sprite actually), in combination with my HIF44 years ago, and had trouble getting the tickover right. Since it worked when I had HS2's fitted, I figured the Aldon must be ok, but not with the HIF. I couldn't be bothered to find out why, and since I've never had trouble with points, I just relegated it to 'spares'. I've since discovered that the distributor vacuum take off on the HIF is manifold, and hence advances the ignition timing too far. That's no doubt why the aldon was playing up. I can't see me fitting the aldon. Maybe I'll ebay it. How much are they worth? Or maybe, since so many people seem to be afraid of points these days ;), I'll bung the aldon on the Midget for when I sell it. Then I'll be able to say how "reliable" the ignition is, since I got rid of that terrible points and condensor arrangement. lol. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| I had the pertronix and it was excellent; even my RVI tachometer worked! Since then I have fitted the simon bbc unit and red rotor; even better and engine seems smoother. Only problem is the RVI tacho didnt work so I've fitted an RVC instead. So, RVI tacho for sale, going cheap! Regards, Andrew |
| aj robinson |
| Lawrence: the vacuum on my HIF44 is the other side of the manifold ie "ported" as they call it. I get very little vacuum on the tickover with closed throttle so no effect on the tickover smoothness. You can see this on the Amethyst. I think I have found debates about the benefits of manifold v ported vacuum takeoff and ported is regarded as preferable for the reason you mention. |
| G Williams |
| Hey nigel I like the idea of carrying and extra dissy on long trips, and as you said, its a personal choice... when I say long trips, im thinking 600 miles + one way ... so effectivly 1200 miles round trip... for local around town driving, no... I wouldnt The reason im a fan of a spare dissy, I can have it already pre set up, and timing premarked with the cap, and the vario wires already to go, installed with very few tools and back on the road in under 3 minutes.... Whats great now adjusting, no feeler gauges, no timing gun lights, no worry of looseing small screws and little condensor springs... and ofter small parts, no hunting for and hoping all the parts are still in its small bag, no hoping i to remember how to install and set up under stress, and if the issue is in the dissy its self, maybe a dog spring broke, or a ground.wire finally snaped ... your still golden, plus another advantage a complete dissy ready to fit, takes up so little space and can be stored anywere in the car ...inside the wings, just mark the rotor postion, release the clamping bolt, pull the old dissy, drop the new dissy it align the rotor and scrathed in timing marks, bolt back down hook up plug wires and plug in ht leads done, start car and keep driving |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Prop, why not fit a dissy to your car that will confidently do a 1,200, 2,400, 4,800 mile trip and not worry about carrying a spare what spares would you carry in your modern for a 1,200 mile trip? it's this type of thinking that suggests to others that the old cars we call 'classics' are unreliable, not to be trust on longer journeys and all sorts of spare need to be carried get your car running right and replace suspect parts before they go wrong and you don't need a boot load of spares I mean where do you stop? I've had my share of 'classic' car breakdowns and I'd need a trailer to hold all the parts that I've had go at one time or another |
| Nigel Atkins |
| I did nigal.... I converted back to points and condensor and threw the pertronix in the trash....hahaha But I know your point, a trialer with full machine shop and all the parts is a good idea pulling behind the midget I think fear is a personal choice and will dictate what parts get to ride and see the landscape and what parts stay on the shelf back home... I personally cant condemn anyone for the parts they take with them on the road or even the tools for that matter... no matter how great this forum is, when the oil meets the brake pads only the driver is going to be doing the wrenching... none of us in our comfy barkolounger seeping on fruity drinks with unbrellias in our own living rooms Some take fuel pumps, some extra cly heads, some a gas can, yet others just a cell phone and lots of cash What makes preparring for long distance in driving a classic with driving a modern.... parts are common along the way for any modern, try finding a midget generater in racoon farts iowa on a friday evening So there lies the differance Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Prop, easy, if you know your generator might go replace it and fully test out the replacement before you go on your long trip do you not see that to someone considering a 'classic' you're sending the message that you can't go far without carrying spares - and big spares like the dynamo/alternator or are you suggesting carrying speculative spares based on yours and many others experience - do you carry them all together or risk splitting them out on different journeys, carry a starter motor this trip but a cylinder head the next, the excitement of the gamble whenever someone says to me classics are unreliable I give the same reply - it's the previous and present owners that make and keep the car that way hold on ... I'm just swapping to my first reserve computer mou b*gger that broke too, good job I keep a third in the drawer |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Hi Graham. Not so on My HIF44. Must be different on different models. Mine came from an MG Metro, and the distributor on that was different in terms of the vacuum advance. In fact it was a Vacuum 'retard' device. Hence on my 25D4, it advanced it too much at tickover. My solution, if I get around to it, will be to drill the body of the HIF and make a 'ported' hole in it. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Your right Nigel, should have gone to specs avers. Apologies. |
| Pete Ottewell |
| hold on ... I'm just swapping to my first reserve computer mou HAHAHA....good one, I.dont tell people classics are unreliable...I tell people that classics are like grandma, she will have her good days and.her bad days. You have to be able to roll with the flow. In my opinion... 97.8% of these cars have an issue of.some type... here most classics are rolling rebuilds at some stage, there is no such thing as a perfect hassle free classic... And your correct you need to know what you have and maintain it, but it seems there are 2 kinds of people, those that buy a classic for the 1st time, and those that own them and know how to service and fix them Ill always own mine, my brother on the other hand will own 1 classic for 6 months and done, never to return, its not his nature to go beyound spark plugs and air filters...and alot of people are that way today Im thinking he reliablity of ones car is only as good as the relationship you have with the car An thats say almost the same thing as your argument. Your car is only as.good as your wallet and your wrenching ability Lrop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Interesting side note.... Ive noticed at the big mg events...the cars tend to caravan togather, and everyone brings parts for what ever they fear... at the finish line... theres enough spare parts you can almost build an engine It might be fun at french lick next month to have everyone bring out there carry on spares and see what could be built if all were combined. Like I said nigel....I cant fault anyone for the spares or the tools they carry in there boot ...its a security blanket with a side of boy scout motto... always be prepared.and besides if it helps them want to experiance the road... whos it Hurting For me probably no parts other then an extra tire some tools and various wire and hose and tapes.... never a boy scout but I was a cub scout and a webalo Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| I agree with taking a complete distributor, and for exactly the reasons Prop stated. When I drove my 77 MGB to Utah (with an Allison electronic ignition) I pulled the points dist. out of my 68 GT and took it with me. I wouldn't take Nigel's suggestion to put on a new electronic ign. before the start of the trip because I wouldn't want to spend the money if not needed, and I believe a new one would have the same chance of failure as the old one. I generally like to take the things I cant fake. I wouldn't go out of my way to take a generator/alternator/starter because you can easily drive all day long on a hot battery, and you can push the car or park on a hill to start it. But, a distributor and a water pump are hard to fake on the side road. I have cut up beer cans from the side of the road to replace trashed carbon contacts, but that is as close as I have come to faking a distributor. Charley |
| C R Huff |
| Electronic kit follows a "bathtub" failure profile. It is more likely to fail very quickly after installation, or go on trouble free until the end of it's life when it will definitely fail! |
| G Williams |
| Lawrence: having had another look, I'm not sure which side of the butterfly the vacuum fits. I tried poking a thin wire down to catch the butterfy but that didn't seem to push through. The only thingI can see is that the Amethyst show no vacuum at tickover, but it does on overrrun at higher revs! |
| G Williams |
| Hi Graham. Check out this thread from 2001. Archive -- Midget and Sprite technical. "HIF44/HS6 Vacuum advance connection" "Stuart Ramdeen, Middlesex, United Kingdom Posted 20 October 2001 at 19:52:15 UK time Hi all. For those of you that have done this conversion, where did you attach the vacuum advance to? When I took the setup down to the rolling road, the bloke there said that there was way to much vacuum being produced and it was sucking around the advance way to much at idle. What can be done? What have others done? I'm getting pinking at the moment anything over 3500 rpm. Any suggestions? I've got to take it down to the RR again next month (when I can afford it!!!) to get the timing and mixture perfected.thanks stu " ----- Seems I'm not the first to have this problem. I posted about it before. The solution is given on the Minspares website. Drill the body. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Peter, no problems if you go to SpecSavers you can get a 'free' spare pair of glasses too ... that you could of course ... keep in the boot of your Spridget! ;) |
| Nigel Atkins |
| if not fitted correctly electronic igniter heads can go intermittent or fail not so soon after fitting this is when some owners curse the electronic units and revert back to trusted points and often this can be the same person that didn't fit the electronic unit properly in the first place |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Not got round to fitting my Pertronix yet, and for clarity I got it from Moss. Will be back with an update when the head is back on which should be later this week. |
| P Bentley |
| Nigel, of course to travel without a spare is a bit short sighted. |
| P Ottewell |
| Nigel: Failing because of incorrect fitting will put a dent in the "bathtub". The failure theory is about failures due to manufacturing defects rather than installation c*ck-ups. Generally with electronics anything which is going to fail will do so very quickly. Failure through overloading and the like is another issue although a well-designed item should hopefully have some sort of protection. |
| G Williams |
| Peter, it sounds like you're going to need a third pair of glasses to look for your second pair in the boot - you can never be over prepared, some people just don't see this! yeap I think I had the grasp of the bath tub theory I was introducing the 'I can't admit to my own mistakes and have to blame someone or something else for my mistakes' non-theory, seen it a few times when owners switch back to trusted points from those unreliable electronic things, costs less to cock-up points plus the car will often still run that's not to say that some electronic igniters don't fail because of their build the bath tub theory does also assume reasonable build quality which some electrical parts didn't (don't?) posses |
| Nigel Atkins |
This thread was discussed between 14/05/2014 and 21/05/2014
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