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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Sh*t... Have I made a scrap worthy error?

Yes, it's me again with another rambling thread looking for reassurance that I haven't made a complete an utter balls of things! I am really in the dumps about this one as things were going so well and this looks like a big 'un!

So... I have just about finished my repairs to the passenger side of my shell. New sill, A post, B post etc. I thought I would try and hang the door, check it still fits. I faffed for an hour and couldn't get the thing on properly. So I just put the door in the gap. without bolting it up.

With the bottom of the door resting on the sill (as in my picture) you can see there is a big gap at the bottom of my A post...
Malcolm Le Chevalier

doh... picture

Malcolm Le Chevalier

... and a big miss at the top of the B post...

Malcolm Le Chevalier

If I make the gaps at the a and b posts look ok by just kind of holding the door as best I can in place it doesn't line up with the sill...

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Really baffled, haven't had chance to measure up against the other side yet but whilst doing the work...

All the replacement panels that I have put in seem to 'match' well together and with the old panels that remain.

I braced the door before cutting out the sill.

The spacing between the a post hinges seemed ok when trying to hang the door. Perhaps about 1mm or 2mm out which I think is what made the attempted door hanging so tricky.

Any ideas anyone, or time to bin the damn thing!

Thank god I'm off on holiday for a couple of weeks. Really annoyed with myself and the car!

Thanks for listening!

Yours dispairingly!
Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Might be a problem. Pics are too close and too small overall to judge - need the big picture, then the close ups.
And that is perhaps the message - Big picture then detail. Always check these things constantly as you go, especially at the "tacked but not welded point."

B post looks bad, but I can't figure out how you managed that - what was replaced exactly?

Set the door in the hole with 3/16 spacers on top of the sill and take an overall pic.

I know you are discouraged, but we've all done it, or something similar. I once rebuilt a BMW 2002 floor/sills, checking constantly, including after tacking everything, and then after final welding most of it, and checking door fit, I got carried away welding the final sill seams across the bottom of the door opening. They are spotwelds of course, and I seam welded it (Oxy-Acet). Came to final door install, and the damned door opening was 1/2" shorter than the door and forget about the 3/16 all around dead even clearance that I had just an hour ago. It took a lot of figuring, hydraulic jacks, wood blocks, heat and hammering to unshrink that weld so that the door fit, but I'll certainly not forget the lesson. I was really glad I hadn't welded the other side at the same time, which I might have done, as it was already "fit and checked".

FRM
FR Millmore

Struggling to get a wide shot FRM due to lack of space in the garage. I can't stand back far enough!

Dug into my photo archive and found the fit wasn't all that great to start with. I am positive I checked the door gaps when I bought the thing but maybe I only checked the driver side...

Photo from the day I got the car.

Malcolm

Malcolm Le Chevalier

It looks like it has banana'd slightly.

Have you fully welded everything or is it just tacked in at the minute?

bracing the door gap is good practice, but you also need to ensure the floor doesnt buckle at all whilst there are no panels in a vertical position to prevent the bowing of the shell.
PeterJMoore

The A post gap is mostly a matter of the skin fitting, a common repair and the first one ever required on these cars. Could have been done 3 or 4 times by now.
The door bottom looks odd - if either of these has been fixed/patched/monkeyed, all bets are off. Door bottom is the prime reference.

The B post fit is a matter of the A post hinge panel, separate from the A post skin, assuming the posts are correct as original on the sill.

Your right side B post bothers me because the Post and outer skin height from sill should always be 3/16-/1/4" longer than the back edge of the door. Hard to see how that can be otherwise, unless the door has been ---d.

You always set the bottom gap straight, line the B post to the door back edge, fit the A post skin gap to the front edge of the door. Limiting factor is that the front and rear of the A post are parallel to each other and the front wing rear edge.

FRM
FR Millmore

Hi Malcolm,
As FRM says the door must be reliable in its dimentions and shape to match the car to.
Once you are sure that the door is fine so you can use it reliably as a guide and check for the door gap, make sure the floor is kept flat (I put mine on axle stands on a quite flat floor (The floor was laid flat to put the car on for welding but your garage floor would be fine) then make sure the floor is kept as flat as possible (I jacked two pices of 5x3 under mine to take the weight of the middle of the car when the sills and floor were removed on the drivers side. At this point you work to get (or in my case keep) the A post geometry right and once that is correct you work to it. Sills next, checking that floor or where floor is going to be is flat etc. continuously as you go. (I made a jig to hold the door opening like you but as each part was tacked in place temporarily I still checked the alignment (by eye mainly) and with the door.
Its slowly slowly get it right I am afraid although I have read threads where people have bent the shell later. I know I would bend it wrong.
Anyway all the threads I read and porters restoration guide all said keep going, you will always find more problems than you thought but always remember to keep checking and checking.
I would tend towards some disasembly to get to a point where you know the basic structure is straight and then re weld from there.
To be honest if the engine runs now this is the easy bit, just very time consuming.
Keep at it,
Dave
Dave Squire

Hi Malcolm,
The thing that is simple enough, but took me a while to comprehend, is that one builds the car shape around the door. (which I hitherto thought of as a removable and secondary addition to the shell). As you have discovered, you can get all of the dimensions right, each panel fitted to its neighbour correctly, and yet the overall structure is out of shape. It looks like your door opening has "lozenged".

So your question is at this stage how to correct it? You could re-skin the door to fit the opening. But that would definitely be a bodge. And I am NOT recommending this. But just in case it crossed your mind as an easy way out!! And it it looks like it is far enough out to give other problems anyway if you don't correct it.

I would start by trial fitting the front wing against the leading edge of the A post and the curved sill line. This will confirm if the A post is at the correct angle relative to the sill, and also if it is at the right spacing back along the sill from the front wheel arch. From the door gap photo it looks like the A post is leaning backwards (or the sill is high at the rear; comes to the same thing) Using the front wing to check will either confirm what the door is showing or tell you that the door is wrong.

Although the A post skin is easy enough to alter, the forward facing side of the A post needs to fit to the wing correctly. If you find that the A post is indeed wrong, then you will need to use a slitting disc to cut vertically down the footwell side just ahead of the A post. You need to work out if the bottom of the A post needs to move back, or the top forward, which you can determine from the fit of the front wing. Adjust it into the correct angle and then seam weld back up the slit.

I would really concentrate on getting that A post right in relation to the door bottom. The angle of the B post is much easier to deal with!

Guy

PS - How am I "qualified to advise? - well, when I rebuilt my blue car I had done exactly the same! And cheer up! It is not scrap! Once you have done the thinking and measuring it is less than a half day's work to get it all aligned perfectly!
Guy Weller

You don't have to justify your qualifications to me Guy! Your advice on all my other bodywork cock ups has been spot on!

Thanks Dave and FRM.

As I said, I am off on my holidays for a couple of weeks now so don't have time to investigate what has gone wrong. Hopefully the time off will give me chance to chill out from the project.

When I get back I will do two things I think:
1. measure up the driver side door and door gap and compare.
2. take a good look at passenger door, it is certainly pretty rotted out at the bottom and full of rather damp and cruddy structural filler! Perhaps it has been bodged in some way.

Was just pretty upset about a possible major cock up last night, as I thought I had been making a lot of good progress recently.

Thanks for listening everyone.
Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Do just offer up that front wing, it will quickly confirm (or otherwise) where the fault lies.

Enjoy your holidays. I must admit I read it that you had two weeks off to work on your car. But maybe you are not fully master of your own destiny?!!
Guy Weller

yes, edit, check front wing too. Maybe that will be number 2 on the list! Whipping out a tape measure stays number one as this will only take 2 minutes.

Unfortunately not two weeks to work on the car. Going to Goodwood!

Thanks Guy,
Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Sounds to me like you had best be on the lookout for a couple of decent doors!

Have a nice trip and carry the correct spanners.

FRM
FR Millmore

Malcolm, I'm not *exactly* on your route from Aberdeen to Goodwood, but in the overall view of that size journey it's not far out of your way.

I have a couple of reasonable door shells that no one seems to want, if you can come and look at them you're welcome to them. it may be worth at least offering them up.

Max
Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com

i think the idea of trying another door is a good one. . whats done is done, but i am sure that a another door will part remedy your situation. Enjoy your holiday
p bentley

Malcolm probably needs another door as he says the present one is full of filler. But I doubt it will sort out the dimensional problem. He is going to need to do some other adjustments to resolve that, but does need a good door to build it around to get it right.
Guy Weller

Thanks max, unfortunately there isn't any room in the car as there are 4 of us with all our gear (its amazing what people think is essential!)

On my phone so can't be bothered typing my other thoughts at the moment!

Cheers
Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

This thread was discussed between 25/06/2012 and 27/06/2012

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