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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Side screens with glass not perspex panels.

I restarted this thread as the original title was none descriptive.

I recently purchased a Mk2 Sprite and found many curious differences from what I thought were standard fitment.
The most curious is that the sidescreens have Glass rather than Perspex panes. One fixed and one sliding in both sides.
I've never, ever seen this before but the most puzzling aspect is how the h**l did they fit the glass?

Rob




MG Moneypit

I wonder if they were for an exported car?
Currently refurbishing my side screens although they are perspex I can see that if you were practiced at it, there is enough spring in the frame to get a rigid glass to go in. Its also possible that the glass, at least the front fixed one, was fractionally shorter as it would still secure in the frame. My now removed but probably original perspex are 9" 1/32" (230.5mm) for a 260mm frame.

Penny just dropped. You probably cannot accurately measure yours as you won't be able to get the glass out!
GuyW

Your frame also looks different to mine. Is your bottom seal missing, or is that a different sort of seal to the usual broad rubber flap, showing along the base? Did they change the design for the mk2 cars?
GuyW

I had a close look and found they were made by Weathershields so must have been an after market fitment. See photo. It was very hard to see because of wear and difficult to photograph. I had to enhance the image somewhat.
Rob

MG Moneypit

Rob, I believe that Weathershields were contracted to make all of the side screens, throughout production.
GuyW

Bottom of frame on my MK1 Sprite frames.
And manufacturer's nane




GuyW

Yes, I've been googling about this. The sidescreens I have are markedly different than the ones that became standard equipment. The frames are wider and the bottom rail is different. I think mine have a regd design number stamped on it which didn't appear in the image I posted and don't seem to appear on standard fitment side screens. I'll try and see what it is if I can read it, it may reveal a date.
I wonder if when Frogeyes were only supplied with side curtains Weathershields may have designed sliding window sidescreens and sold as an aftermarket part and later on BMC adopted them as standard fitment to later cars?
However, I have not found any reference to glass being a feature, only perspex.
Rob
MG Moneypit

Could you get any date or info from the BSI numbers to the glass to see if it was a later add-in?
Nigel Atkins

Rob, Mine's a 1960 Frogeye. Sliding rear half, fixed front half. Sometime soon after this they had both halves sliding, and that would've meant a change to the chanel section to allow for the extra felt. Dr Davies has a fairly detailed history of the different variants in his part I article in the MASC magazine. Though I don't think he mentions any with glass, he may have further information. He occasionally looks in here so may comment, or I could email him.
GuyW

I think the front sliding half came in with the Mk11 Sprite Mk1 Midget. I am not ware any Frogeyes had them.

I wonder if the screens Rob has come from another car? Turner/ Rochdale perhaps
Bob Beaumont

I googled the BSI number and found lots of info about what the standard is but not when it was introduced. No results on AT-55 though.
Rob
MG Moneypit

Rob,
Google is only there to sell you things, the information superhighway got diverted to an enormous mall many years back. Try other search engines and classic car sites, I've seen lists relating BS number dates on classic car windscreens at least, possibly MGs or general.

With 'friends' like Google and MS we never need worry about being sabotaged by the likes of Russia, China or terrorist groups.
Nigel Atkins

"to google" is now a recognised verb meaning to use a search engine, so powerful has been the marketing by the Google company. But saying one googled doesn't necessarily restrict to use of Google so one can ironically "google" using Bing, Yahoo, Duckduck or any of the others.
GuyW

True, but same as when someone says they've "hoover'd" meaning vacuumed it could still include using a Hoover vacuum (cleaner device/machine).

As at June 2020, "Google had the highest market share by far with 86.36 percent of the desktop, tablet and console search engine market in the UK."
https://www.statista.com/statistics/280269/market-share-held-by-search-engines-in-the-united-kingdom/
Nigel Atkins

Back to these sidescreens. I contacted Dr Davies, author of a couple of MASC articles about refurbishing sidescreens, and he responded with:

<<I've never heard of glass sidescreens and I doubt Weathershields ever tried it. The most likely explanation (I think) is that someone once took a set of sidescreens and somehow inserted the glass - either by putting the felt or whatever in afterwards or by dismantling the frame, sliding the glass in, then joining the frame together again. But it's hard to understand why anyone would ever want to do this - perspex is a much more suitable material for the job (safer and easier to work). Weathershields made sliding screens for WW2 aircraft and I doubt any of them had sliding glass windows.>>

So no further forward other than another confirmation of this being an oddity!
Where did you get them, Rob? No clues in the car's history?
GuyW

Rob - To wrench this thread back On Topic: BS 6206 appears to date from 1981:

Tom Coulthard

Rob,
many apologies, I've just remembered (I have a drip-feed memory) the lists I've seen were for Triplex number dating.

I find search engines more difficult to use now and can't find info now that was easy to find years ago.

A quick look shows BS6262 Code of practice for glazing in buildings so perhaps you could ask a glazier about the numbers and dating.

ETA: I was still typing whilst Tom posted, and the pdf put up was the last item I looked at, the BS standard (and your glass) might predate 1981 but I didn't look for full BS6262 dating).

I'm guessing the glass was added by a previous owner using new glass or reclaimed glass from a building window or door or shower screen.

Nigel Atkins

These Construction And Use Regs from 1981 give the previous BS numbers for safety glass. The earliest seems to be BS 857 dating from 1967, though I would have thought there must have been earlier ones:
Tom Coulthard

The glass would have to be made for the application and tempered, it couldn't have been cut from a previously tempered piece of glass as that would cause it to shatter into tiny pieces as intended. The only way to cut tempered is to anneal it to remove the tempering, cut, and re-temper but then you may as well start with untempered glass.
David Billington

Unlikely to be reclaimed shower screen glass Nigel, as you cannot cut toughened glass. And the positioning of the kite mark on the glass suggests a professionally purpose made and marked pane.

The frame section differs from a normal sidescreen

Sorry to repeat you, David. Timing!
GuyW

Here's the page about BS 6206 on the BSI website:

https://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail?pid=000000000010129296

The standard's title is 'Specification for impact performance requirements for flat safety glass and safety plastics for use in buildings'

I don't know whether there are different standards for automotive glazing. If so, the kitemark and BS 6206 marking might suggest the glass was retrofitted rather than installed from new.
Jonathan Severn

I think there may have been an interregnum between Perspex and the ubiquity of Lexan (which, personally, I regret).

Owners who remembered how easily Perspex scratched - and how difficult that could make driving conditions on dark, wet nights - might have insisted on glass, I suppose. But to me it smacks of very expensive restorers' lily-gilding.

BS 6206 does cover both laminated and toughened glass, so at least the glass coukd be easily cut to size. (BS 6262 is a complete red herring, sadly.)
Tom Coulthard

Rob - I would be interested to see a pic of your patent number if you could - I notice your 'WEATHERSHIELD REG' is different from Guy's, which is interesting.
Tom Coulthard

I've been rescued, without realising it I was thinking of laminated whilst perhaps referring to toughened (mixed up and confused as usual but not totally wrong for once).

I know a mate got glass for his Westie windscreen from a local glazier and it was cut to shape and just required the safety mark to be on display.

The position and angle of the marks seemed a little odd to me but perhaps the glaziers are less fussed about aesthetics.
Nigel Atkins

I think the marks are where one might expect, but the rotation of them isn't ideal. Of course the glazier or whoever added the marks wouldn't necessarily know how the glass was to be fitted.

Wherever they originate from, it's definitely a talking point for originality nerds! Whoops - is that us!! 😂
GuyW

The rotation of the marks was what made me think of cut glass. As you say the marks would be on the glass per sheet. I've no idea how many marks or where per sheet and would only guess at a corner(s) location in orientation to the sheet. So you but x-foot by x-foot panel/sheet(?) of glass and cut the shape(s) required with what's left as scrap (recycle?) or buyer to take away and use where the marking doesn't need to be shown.

Nerdship (careful with the spelling), originality of the glass maybe, but to and of the car, with that steering wheel and boss(?) :) (or am I missing something again).

I normally say not even the rust is original on my car but now it is! At last I have an original car with patina, I must increase it's insurance value.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel,
<<As you say the marks would be on the glass per sheet>>

I didn't say that Nigel. You misquote me. I believe the glass would have been cut to shape and size first. Then tempered and then marked. Or possibly the mark is put on before tempering. Either way, what I meant was that the glazier who did this may not have been aware of the fitment or orientation on the car. So he wouldn't have known which way to orientate the mark.
GuyW

There is a discussion here...
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mg-midget-forum.3/side-curtains.2369114/
about sidescreens where two types of sidescreen are discussed and been attributed (wrongly I think) to different sidescreens being fitted to Sprites and Midgets. The last post in the thread includes pictures to support this (probably erroneous) supposition. The image shows 2 different designs. The bottom sidescreen has an identical frame to the ones I have. The top sidescreen is what I would say is standard fitment. However, no mention of glass.
I'll have to attempt to disassemble them to see how easy it is to take the glass out.
And I'll see if I can get the regd number off the frame to see if that leads to anything.
Rob
MG Moneypit

There's a lot of confusion and dissent on that discussion! I think in part this relates to misunderstanding about what is meant by there being a groove along the frame. Some posts are correctly referring to the shallow groove along the inside face of the bottom rail of MK1 Sprite frames. Others seem to be confused and are talking about the much deeper groove which is along the outside of the botom rail.

The shallow groove of the MK1 Sprite frames was dropped for MK2 Sprite and MK1 Midget frames which are identical. Apparently some of the very early MK2 Sprite production still used the MK1 style frames, until the introduction of the GAN1 cars a few months later.

The other difference in that photo is that in the lower one both the panes slide, whereas in the earlier Sprite ones only the rear pane opens. As both panes slide, the outer channel is wider to take a felt, than on the MK1 Sprite frames, where the front perspex is fixed (crimped) into a narrow chanel.


GuyW

Sorry Guy not an intentional misquotation rather a missed bit of text editing by me. The sentence should have been longer and different but I messed up the edit/deleting and then missed it.

I think this also happened when I was proofreading and amending Dominic's list of Covid rules, I hope it didn't cause him any bother. I've got to buck my ideas up as I'm doing Donald's tax returns next week.
Nigel Atkins

Rob, in addition to the glass fitted in the sidescreens, what are the other "many curious differences" that you've found on your Mk.II Sprite?
J Whitehouse-Bird

Good question Jonathan.

Rob, can you please post some pictures of your car and when it was built or first registered?

These MkII Sprites are interesting and quite rare cars (I am enjoying fixing my 948cc 1961 car - it is good to swap info.

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

It's this one I bought off ebay.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324312480096
You can see some of the curious mods under the bonnet if you look at the auction pics.
I'm busy at the moment constructing a carport for it before the winter rains start, which seem to have started already here. It's on the drive covered up at the mo.
It was registered March 62 but the chassis number 7554 suggests a bit earlier.
I have no history save what is in the auction text, although I now have the address etc. for the owner previous to the one who sold it to me.
It is truly cosmetically challenged but it is surprisingly solid. Lots wrong with it though, the panel gaps are awful due to badly fixed (I wouldn't go as far as restored) doors and poorly fitted rear wings. But hey ho it goes OK.
Also it has Metro alloys from a Metro A series engined car which has entailed using spacers and longer studs to correct the different ET of the wheels.
Rob
MG Moneypit

Guy, re. your comment regarding that sidescreens were commonised for Mk.II Sprites and Mk.I Midgets, albeit following a short period at the beginning Mk.II Sprite production where the Mk.I Sprite frames were used...

This is correct but the commonising occurred much later on in Mk.II Sprite production, at the introduction of the HAN7 model in Oct. 1962.

Only at this point did both Sprites and Midgets models have identical sidescreens fitted on the Abingdon assembly line.

Prior to this all HAN6 cars utilised similar sidescreens to those fitted to AN5 cars i.e. features included the 'grooved' lower aluminium extrusion and a fixed front pane.

Rob, re. your glass panes...personally I wouldn't attempt to remove them. The aluminium frames may well have been built up around them...in fact I can't think of any other way that glass could be fitted. The original 'Perspex' has to be bent quite markedly in order to get it in place. Glass, of course, doesn't bend!

I would very much appreciate hearing about the other differences that you've observed on this car.

As an aside, the kite marks on the glass panes of your sidescreens are curiously positioned in the same place as the 'PERSPEX A S 4' markings on the original BMC sidescreens (see attached photo).

Best wishes, Jonathan


J Whitehouse-Bird

Rob

That looks like a great buy.

My Mk2 has similar bodywork but has made for a great project. As bought pic attached. Eventually aiming for something looking closer to the Healey works Sebring racers (of which Jonathan has restored a survivor): http://www.sebringsprite.com/mark2sebrings.html or the BMC works rally car YRX737 in Sprite guise on the 1962 Tulip and Alpine rallies: http://www.jacobsmidget.com/worksrallycars.html

These MkIIs look great on steel wheels. Your 948 would have been on Frogeye type steel wheels, rather than the later steels on the 1098cc 'MkIIA' model which also had front discs as standard and a dashboard lower crash pad and different seats.

What brakes are on it front and rear, including diameter of brake and clutch master cylinder?

Hardtops occasionally come up for them.

If you are ever wanting to get rid of our plus 60 over bored 948cc engine do ask!

Looks like you need a Sprite grille to replace the later Midget item. I could do with one too!

Dr John E Davies does great work refurbing dynamos, Rev counter gearboxes and voltage regulator boxes.

What warning lights are in your rev counter and speedo? Looks like could be the correct Mk2 parts rather than more easily available Frogeye bits.

Enjoy and keep us updated please with your progress and plans. Makes me realise I could do with putting more on my blog: http://austinhealeyspritemk2.blogspot.com

Cheers
Mike


M Wood

Hi everyone, I managed to get in touch with the owner before who lives not 20 miles from me.
He owned the car for 25 years and did most of the mods to the engine. He had the glass panels cut and toughened and replaced the original perspex panels. So the sidescreens are the originals but he managed to stretch the frame enough to fit the glass then installed the felt into the frames under the glass. He also fitted the alloy wheels. The engine is +60 thou, big valve head (presumable 12G295) skimmed 80 thou to raise the CR, fitted and modified an MG Metro exhaust manifold. Not sure what pistons were used. He made the odd looking plenum chamber as it originally had trumpets (and still does under all the gubbins) fed by a K&N filter tucked under the wing. It has odd wings, the offside being wrong, fitted by the previous owner.
He put new sills and rear arch panels on both sides and resprayed it 20+ years ago.
The person he bought it off sold the original reg and had an age related number assigned.
Unfortunately, he never kept any paperwork or pictures or bills or anything else and can't remember what the original reg was.
So the trail has run dry.
Rob
MG Moneypit

It is on drum brakes all round. It needs a grille, the one fitted is a later one from a facelift Sprite.
I got both bumpers and the 4 original wheels which have been stored outside in bin bags so have not survived very well. The bin bags didn't keep water out, infact they have kept water in so the wheels are very rusty. They have 135 tyres fitted.
I have the cable tacho which looks in reasonable condition, the original head (or maybe not as it has single valve springs) and 2 rocker assemblies with forged rockers. One has small foot rockers the other big foot rockers that may be Mini Cooper S.
Rob
MG Moneypit

Rob,
did you mean 135 tyres or was that a typo?
As I've always speculated that at least the Frogeye perhaps could run on 135 tyres?

On a brief look the rad grille is a later Midget to my eyes.

Could you still get change of reg history from DVLA on the V888?
Nigel Atkins

Yes, 135 tyres all round.

The grille is as you say. Introduced on the facelift update and used on subsequent chrome bumper midgets.

Didn't think of using a V888, does it have a tick box for that?

Rob
MG Moneypit

Thanks for the reply, so at least one other person thought 135 tyres could be used, and on a Mk2 Sprite (Mk1 Midget). Next you get a chance please I'd be very interested in knowing the make model and age of the tyres if possible (amatheur nerd mode), assuming 80% ratio sidewall(?).

Data protection restricts details a lot now to how it used to be but you might/could get previous reg info(?).
"You can ask DVLA for information about your vehicle or another vehicle and its registered keeper if you have a ‘reasonable cause’."

See form, "Please state what you require, why you require this information and how you are going to use it. (Please continue on a separate sheet if necessary.)" -

Just very briefly say you're interested in the history of the car including previous reg but obviously under no circumstances say you want previous keepers' details (to contact them).

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/853889/v888-request-by-an-individual-for-information-about-a-vehicle.pdf
Nigel Atkins

One of the other curious mods done on this car is to the heater. Someone has added a second heater matrix to the heater under the bonnet. 2 heater matrixes in series. I've not investigated this as yet but plan to put it back to normal - eventually.
Rob
MG Moneypit

Wasn't that an old dodge for overheating engines in small spaces?
Greybeard

Beat me to it, it certainly shouldn't be for extra heat as Spridgets have little furnaces as heaters (subject to cooling/heating system being clean and seals and system all in good condition).
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, get your anorak on. Pictures of tyres.
Make Sabre S800, Size 135/80 R13 69S
They are retreads dated 1995.
Rob
MG Moneypit

Not sure where the pictures went!!!!




MG Moneypit

Cheers Rob, 1995 retreads, get them on ASAP you'll have great fun in shower damped roads. :)

69, load index is 325kg load, so times by 4 is 1300kg load, which is 2,866lbs, plenty for a 1,900lbs ladened car and allows for bloaters and a few pairs or winter underpants in the boot.

S, speed rating is to 112mph (IIRC all speed ratings are tested for the up-to speed for only 10 minutes use).

A quick Google Chrome search shows they're (one?) still available! at £23 each (tyre only). - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174488924537

Possibly yours are from Sabre Tyres (Euro) Ltd. - https://app.duedil.com/company/gb/03795640/sabre-tyres-euro-limited

Seems like, as Trev and Oggers would say, the interfering busy-bodies of local government had it in for upright company. - https://www.am-online.com/news/2002/9/5/firm-is-fined-3000-over-illegal-waste-tyre-usage/3595/

The unkind might suggest that there were four wheelbarrows missing their tyres but I still think four good quality tyres 135 tyres might be enough - could you please fit yours and test them (on a very large private empty car park)?

:)

PS - is that a crack in the wheel(?), if so watch that when trying the tyres for me. :)

Nigel Atkins

The "crack" is actually paint lifting. Even though there isn't a crack I don't think I'll try the original tyres any time soon. With the alloys on I would need to replace the long studs with original studs just to try the old wheels. Sorry Nigel you'll have to find someone else to try them.
Rob
MG Moneypit

This thread was discussed between 21/10/2020 and 26/10/2020

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