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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Starter motor - plain or fancy?

For the last few years my car has been sluggish to turn over and it's now reached the point where it won't start. The battery is only a year old and is showing a good state of charge. I've changed the solenoid and checked the wiring. I also have a direct earth cable from the battery earth point (which is clean) to the starter. Even with a starter charger on the car the engine is barely turning over.

Consequently my next port of call is the starter motor. The starter on the car is about 15 years old but I've only done 8-9k in that time. I do wonder if the standard starters are being made down to a price now. I had it out a couple of years ago, it's a funny one with a disc commutator. It all looked ok and a lube and commutator clean seemed to cheer it up for a while.

I'm in two minds as to whether to spend £70 on a standard one or several times that on a reduction gear one. I can afford the latter but do I need to?

Your thoughts / experiences would be hugely appreciated.

Thanks, Jeremy.
Jeremy Cogman

Hi Jeremy,
I've had a couple of "new" starter motors in the last 6 years so I do wonder at the quality of some of them out there. Fortunately I have a mate who rebuilt my last one and its been spot on for 2 years now. He did say the quality of the one he rebuilt was really bad and doubted much had actually been done to it previously.
A good check of connections and earths also helps!
aj robinson

Surely the real question is what you would do with the cash difference between the alternatives? I'm guessing that's about £200+ ? That £200 has no value at all unless you can use it, so what would you use it for?
GuyW

Retire a day earlier? 1% of what needs spending on my Fiat Dino?

Thanks for your thoughts so far, keep it coming folks.
Jeremy Cogman

Btw, does anyone know if the pre-engaged starter from the later Minis fits?

Edit: A quick bit of research suggests the tooth count is different and you need a different ring gear.
Jeremy Cogman

I think I would stick with the original as far as practicable. You can get them fairly easily and they are pretty easy to rebuild. Brushes and bearings etc. are still easily available and inexpensive.
The old Lucas inertial starter is not sophisticated, it's frankly a bit of a crude design but they are generally reliable and pretty tolerant of neglect. They just get a bit tired over the years and a bit of a refresh does the world of good.
A usable Lucas original shouldn't cost a lot, certainly less than a shoddy modern copy, and it's more than man enough to start an A series. I have two spares in The Shed which I know to be good or Andy Jennings might be worth a try.
I know that the expensive high-torque starters like Wosp and Alton have their fans in this parish but I've never been convinced of the benefit versus cost comparison to a Lucas original.
It's your money, but if it were mine I'd stick with the original type.

I did enjoy Guy's bit of philosophy!
Greybeard

I dont think the high torque ones are necessary either. If you dont want to strip it yourself find a local auto electrical place to refurb it. I assume there must be several along the south coast considering the number of restoration outfits down your way.

Trev
T Mason

Yes, I agree a decent Lucas unit is fine in an A series. Whilst there are other views,I certainly have had no need to change in all the years of Spridget ownership.
Bob Beaumont

Jeremy
I bought a replacement starter (standard M35) from Leacy Classics, which is now performing well after some "teething" problems. It spun without engaging a time or two initially and I found metal swarf around the pinion clogging up the inertia mechanism. Been fine since but I presume they're all Chinese copies now.

If the windings on yours are OK you could try new brushes.
Bill Bretherton

If you do fit new brushes DON'T unsolder the old braided leads - snip them off. Its important to leave a stub of the old lead attached to solder the new brush lead to. Depending on year of manufacture many starters used an aluminium post for the field coil and resoldering new brushes direct onto that is nigh on impossible.

Other than taking heed of that advice I am firmly on the side of a standard starter. They work just fine for years and years.
GuyW

Following Guy's theme it also depends on if you like the nostalgia of the clattering crash-bang-miss-whine down, crash-bang-start, in the same way of the whine of first gear. And if you'd find the hi-torque whizz-start sound out of place and not as pleasing.

No you don't need the hi-torque type of starter but you'd also not want a standard starter from say the last 20 years perhaps, certainly 15 by what you've put. Perhaps an original Lucas starter that's been reconditioned like the ones in Grey's shed would be a good choice and you'd keep the original sound.
Nigel Atkins

I'm sure you guys are right about quality of modern replacements. My car has the starter that was on it when I bought it in 1978. I have only ever replaced the brushes, and then less than once a decade. There is no case for an upgraded starter, just a good standard one.
Les Rose

Thanks for your thoughts folks. Buying refurbed in blightly by specialists rather than knocked out cheaply in India makes alot of sense so I've gone with a rebuilt one from ebay.
Jeremy Cogman

Mini mounting bolt holes are 4.5” between centres, whereas Spridgets are 5”
Dave O'Neill 2

I fell foul of that Dave.........
aj robinson

If you have any trouble with your ebay one, you can drop in at mine and have a good s/hand unit for nothing, I have quite a lot for you to choose from.
David Smith

Many thanks as ever David, a very generous offer and I should have thought of you.

To close this one off, my rebuilt one is night and day compared with the old one. Car spinning up very nicely, in hindsight I think the old one has been on it's way out for years.
Jeremy Cogman

Fancy every time
I went for a hi torque unit and a lithium battery. I jumped out my skin first time I turned the key, so did the car!
At the time I was on a mission to tidy the engine bay of anything not strictly necessary - the original solenoid and connections can be junked with the battery wired direct to the unit.
S G Macfarlane

.

S G Macfarlane

SG. How is your battery secured and connected?

You might want to consider quick-release fittings.

Two weeks ago I had my first encounter with a run away Lithium battery when marshalling at a sprint: I took one look at it smoking and called the Emergency Crew who made a right meal of dealing with it: Numerous laser temperature readings before any real action, 3 extinguishers worth of foam played on it in quick squirts to cool it; struggle to release bolted connections and fittings before picking it up gingerly, placing it in a hand-cart that was then loaded on a trailer to be taken to the middle of a field to be dropped in a tub of water where it remained for hours with another marshal standing guard.

While some foam for cooling would have been required, if it had been on quick release fittings it could have been removed in minutes.

I'm not anti-Lithium batteries, just a bit more aware and cautious of them.

Colin


C Mee

Hi Colin
The terminals are regular screw fittings. There is an aluminium cage that that fits over the battery to secure it - not fitted in the picture.
S G Macfarlane

SG

No solenoid? How does your starter operate - does it have a built in solenoid/contactor?
Bill Bretherton

yes, built in. Although if I remember correctly Powerlite didn't do a positive earth version off the shelf at the time, but were quite happy to make one up at no additional cost
S G Macfarlane

That's interesting SG. Is it pre-engaged too, or inertial?
Greybeard

its pre engaged so no crash - bang - wallop!
thinking back - they did a positive earth starter but the solenoid had to be retained as the switch unlike the negative earth one which did away with the existing solenoid all together.
I specifically wanted to do away with the existing solenoid and Powerlite was able to modify the negative earth unit to suit - I think they added a post for the ignition feed - but it was a while ago now and I'm struggling to remember!
S G Macfarlane

This thread was discussed between 25/09/2022 and 18/10/2022

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