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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Sump removal

I have removed the sump bolts and expected the very oily sump to drop on my head. OK .... its now stuck to the bottom of the engine and I am wondering what to do to get it off. Those little ally blocks are at the ends where I can get a screwdriver in the joint. Can anyone tell me how far they go from the mid line of the engine? Any suggestions re removal in the car much appreciated.

I want to inspect the bottom of the engine and more importantly remove any sludge and crap from the bottom of the sump.

As always my engine never ceases to amaze me with its resilience and just down right anti Dave attitude! :-)
Dave Squire (1500)

Well... If all the bolts are removed it is just a gunky gasket keeping it stuck on.

Being an oafish type I would give it a good whack with my trusty heavy rubber mallet and hope oil doesn't go everywhere! :-D

Malcolm.
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Brummingham screwdriver it is then Malcolm.
Dave Squire (1500)

And indeed it worked a treat Malcolm. Removed a lot of solid carbon bits and grey 'clayey' stuff. Enough to make the oil pick up be in a 'trough' of it. Anyway petrol solvent working a treat on the wash.

Now for the bad news, for the first time ever I did not keep the bolts in order and some are longer than others. Doh. Anyone know which go where? I see the sump has some holes reinforced and thicker at the back. Do the longer ones go in these holes?
Dave Squire (1500)

According to moss the 4 long bolts go at the back of the sump
mark 1500 nearly on the road

Thanks Mark, that fits with the pattern on the sump.

Cheers, Dave
Dave Squire (1500)

Surely it MUST be in the handbook! Nigel?
G Williams (Graeme)

Dave,

Also take note that (I think) four of them are a different thread. These four screw into the ali bits that pack under the two ends of the crank. I guess they are UNC others are UNF.

Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Dave,
The grey "clayey" stuff is almost certainly white metal - i.e. the surface material from the bearing shells. You need to remove the bearing shells, inspect and probably replace with new.

I would start with the big end caps. Remove one. In my experience, #4 is likely to be most worn for some reason that I don't understand. Check the surface for scoring, or for breaking up, or in bad cases it may show through to the copper or steel backing material. On the back of the shell will be the size, if it has had a crank regrind at any time. If there is any wear at all I would fit new bearing shells; you may get away with this and not need a crank regrind if the crank pins are in good, very smooth, condition.

The Main bearings can also be replaced with the crank still in position. You insert the shell whilst turning the crank to slide the top half shell around into position. Make sure it goes in the right way round. The rear and middle mains are easy. Front is more complicated. Either side of the middle one are thrust bearings which are very likely to need replacing anyway.

Important, when removing any caps and bolts do not muddle them up. Best to mark them for placement and orientation

Guy
Guy W

I understand Guy.

Now I have it apart and cleaned up I will be looking closely in the good light tomorrow. No front back play in the crank. (checked with depressing clutch). Am looking particularly for oil leak and I remember you advising me about the flanges of the sump a while ago. It looks like there is a good chance the leak is the back of the sump gasket. As you predicted the flanges are not flat (steel rule says so). Can you remind me what you said to do to get a good fit please, can't find the thread, and I know it was not simply flatten it. It was before my last HG fix and the tracking (which are both standing up well) and so only got around to bottom end inspection now.

I presume the widening of the journals is a lump out job.
Dave Squire (1500)

Dave,
All I have ever done to the flanges when they are distorted is to tap them back flat again with a flat-faced hammer. Or sometimes I would use a largish sized (maybe 10mm diameter)flat ended punch.

Not sure what you mean by widening the journals. But that does sound like something done during a re-grind, although I cannot think why?

If the journals are still smooth, you can probably manage with just replacing the shells with the same size. At most you can polish them. Ideally you would check for ovality with a gauge. If they are oval the crank needs a re-grind which is an engine out and full strip-down job.

It also depends on how fastidious you are, but you could check the journal wear by using plasti-gauge and new shells of the same size as the worn ones you take out.

But this is getting ahead of ourselves. Start by checking Big end cap #4 and the centre mains.
Guy W

Thanks, trying to think of way to flatten with my limited flat surfaces but brain now needs reboot so looks like a morning thinkum.

Oops! didn't mean to say journals, meant galleries (Oil ways?). And yes the engine would have to be out I see.

To bed for now, hope shoulders up to it in the morning.
Dave Squire (1500)

For what it's worth, here are some of the pics I took while tearing down a Spitfire 1500 recently - you can see what I found RE: bearings, etc.:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/safety_fast/sets/72157632793749760/

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Thanks Gryf, is this the one you got back together and working again?

Guy, un planned family commit caused hold up. Looking at manuals now and deciding what to do today. Need car on the road for any work travelling I may need to do tomorrow and not done this before. You know me when I am doing something first off, slowly, slowly, approach.
Dave Squire (1500)

No matter to me Dave. I understand the difficulties of working on a car they you need to have running the next day for work!

It was only your mention of grey clay-like sludge in the sump which to me would warn of white metal from the bearing shells. If it is, and if you catch it early enough, then it is a very simple job just to replace the shells with the crank in situ, just using new shells of the same size. If it is left and the crank wears through the white metal surfacing and starts to contact the backing metal, it can quite quickly damage the crank and it is then a full engine strip down job to remove the crank and get it re-ground.

Knowing that you need to have the car for work, I think I would still take the extra 15 minutes to remove one big end bearing cap and visually inspect the bearing shell. Then you will a) know the degree of wear and whether it is a job for the future, and b) more helpfully, check for any size markings on the back. This would then mean that if you do need to replace them in the future, you can buy the replacement set ready to install. For now, check one, clean and oil the surface, put it back and torque up.
Guy W

Agree with Guy that grey material is most likely white metal sludge.
Had the same on a 1500 - shells just started to show copper. Best change them all + thrust whashers.
I also fitted an oil cooler as 1500's run very hot.

R.
richard boobier

Seconded on the whitemetal clay like sludge. Happened to me last year. If down to copper you will need to check the condition of your crank, which if scored will need grinding! BIG JOB NOW

sorry

Still, its the most fun job you can do.
C L Carter

This thread was discussed between 03/08/2013 and 05/08/2013

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