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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Suspension doesn't line up

Is this a common problem?

One side lined up fine... this side dont!

Is there any adjustment anywhere or have I got a bent part? - Only part I've replaced is the wishbone and kingpin... so it must be one of those...

I'm going to try loosen the shock and see if this will give me the extra 5mm i need.

Any thoughts?

C

Christian Carter

I don't think you will get much sideways movement on the damper locating bolt although perhaps it doesn't need much because any small movement is amplified by the length of the arm. The heads of the plastic bushes look as they are protruding more than I recall. Are they right home?
Otherwise, lean on it a bit!
GraemeW (Kent!)

I've read some posts in the archive... and from it I checked if the lever arm shock was straight... and it is (i've had a straight edge on it to the edge of the plate)

Basically, it must be the wishbone - the bushes must be welded in slightly out!

Not sure I have the motivation left in me get another one and rebuild it again! I'm inclinded to do as you say Graeme and lean on it abit... but that will put a load of strain on it - which will make the lower trunion wear prematurely.

Christian Carter

I seem to remember a similar problem - I think its just all the new stiff bushes not quite taken up alignment.
Its a while now but I think it was a bit of heaving / levering to fit (and as Graeme noted see if the bush will push in - maybe with a G clamp etc)- may have slackened off but too long ago !

Best of luck.

R.
richard boobier

I think I could force it together... but that seems a horrible solution
Christian Carter

I've had them like that too, not a problem, just slacken the 3 damper bolts and heave it into place, the bushes will settle and sort themselves out when driven.
David Smith

Christian, This is normal. The rubber bushes have more give so its less obvious. Slacken everything off slightly at the inner wishbone and the shocker and lever the king pin it into position. Its a good idea to tighten everything up when its back on its wheels.
Bob Beaumont

Thanks guys, starting to feel better now about forcing it now... kinda


Anyone got any comments on compressing the spring back in without the special tool.

I don't know how this guy does it... cause my spring won't set in there like his will... and its definitely the correct length

http://www.mikeamick.com/76midget/page%203.htm

My spring compressors won't fit (even when modified with an angle grinder)

My only thought is to fit it without the spring pan and jack the spring and pan up on its own... but this may prove tough to align

Christian Carter

As the guys have already said this is fairly normal Christian. Just slacken the three mounting bolts on the shocks and use brute adjustmentation to line them up.

Shall I add welcome to the other side of rebuilding Spridgets. This won't be the only time you find it happening.

Oh yes.

Don't forget to rebolt the shockers after you get the pin through the kingpin.
Bill1

That's the method of spring refitting that I normally use. It's a bit trickier on a 1500 as the springs are longer.

The other method is to get two 4" long bolts and wind the spring pan up from underneath.

I wouldn't fancy trying to jack up a loose spring pan - it may try to leave the Earth's atmosphere!
Dave O'Neill2

Thanks Bill...

This job is full of problems!

So if I bolt up the upper fulcrum pin... it crushes itself "into" the bush... which is horrid. The old rubber bushes have a washer built into them which prevents this happening. If I put a washer in then I dont think the pinch bolt will go through.

I've decided I don't like this job!
Christian Carter

I'm gonna do the 4" bolt method. Thanks Dave
Christian Carter

Christian, I added a large penny washer between the polybush and the top lever arm, just so that it doesn't deform and chew up the polybush you tighten it all up
Guy Weller

Again, with a 1500, they may need to be longer than 4".

Easy enough to check.
Dave O'Neill2

Guy, if you add the washer - can you still get the pinch bolt through the flat in the fulcrum pin... I'll get a washer and try it. I think i'm going to have to shave a little off the bush to compensate.
Christian Carter

I've posted this before - I had the bush crushing as you note - genuine 'Polybush' Wales. Contacted them regards no washers supplied etc - promised to get back to me - suggested I could put in washers if I wanted to ! - not satisfied - its their product design !
Never called despite numerous chases.

Finally binned them as not satisfactory to me and fitted 'Super Pro' - Australian make (from Moss) they came complete wish washers and lub etc.

R.

richard boobier

I might be too late with this but just in case

as you know I'm far from an engineer but for the springs I found the two bolts method to be easy (awkward at one point but when aren't these things)

I used two M8 hex head set screws, 120mm long (these should be long enough for 1500s)

threaded rod could also be used of course

as 'belt 'n' braces' I used washers and spacer tubes (6mm copper pipe) to make getting spanners on easier once at top, I also used a second nut on each as a back stop

I also had a scissor jack under just in case (a 'bit of string to add to the 'belt 'n' braces')

note check that you use the two diagonals easiest to get at before you start to compress the spring
Nigel Atkins

Well, each to his own preferred method.

I have only ever done it using a jack under the wishbone, and that on both 1500's and earlier cars. But the jack I use is a bottle jack that locates pretty securely up inside the cone of the spring pan where it cannot get knocked or displaced out of position. Its a pretty quick job and it makes it easier bolting the spring seat into position in the wishbone first, without the hindrance of the coil spring. Only difficulty is that you need the engine in place to counter the strength of the spring - or an attractive assistant to seat demurely on the wing as you work away beneath.
Guy Weller

Guy,
I did consider your method but I didn't have a bottle jack or scissor jack that was a fit and didn't fancy putting a locating column on the scissor jack I had

I once had a very, very small hatchback car on a scissor jack at the kerbside trying to get a wheel off to find that it had bonded to the brake drum casing, I thought brute force was the answer so laid down to kick the wheel off, the car almost moved off the jack with my legs under the car so now I'm much more cautious
Nigel Atkins

Agree Nigel, I wouldn't work under a car supported just on a jack!

Perhaps I should have added, the method uses prop stands under the chassis rail to securely support the car. And the bottle jack under the spring pan to push the wishbone up into position sufficient to get the nut on the top of the Kingpin to start on its thread. From there on, it is tightening the kingpin nut that compresses the spring that last inch or so.
Guy Weller

And here's how I do it. I specifically took this pic for a previous question on this.

As the spring approaches the right point, I put my foot against the base and push it into place. Been doing it this way on spridgets for over 30 years without mishap. Anyway that works, -- works for me. :). But not for children or the squeamish I guess lol.

Lawrence Slater

When I dropped the springs out I opted for dropping the pan and letting the spring down through the hole. I used four lengths of Wickes studding and the double length nuts they sell. I had wondered whether the studding and nuts were a sufficiently high grade for the (unknown) loads hence opting for getting as much thread engaged as possible. Same process putting it all back.

It all felt very safe throughout although generally it felt a bit of a "sledgehammer to crack a nut", particularly at the point where the spring is fully extended and justs falls out. Time consuming, tedious, but preserves the front teeth.

GraemeW (Kent!)

Nice one Lawrence... I love it. Anything that make life more exciting.

Well I put a washer in, and it woukd work... But it still splurged out something awful... So I've gone back to rubbers... Which work perfectly.
Christian Carter

Lawrence, that is how I do it to, just to get the spring into place,and before compressing. Only I just push it in by hand; never tried the foot approach! Your photo appears to show that bit being done with the aid of a jack - unless you have very odd shaped feet! At that stage, the spring isn't really compressed at all, and that is where the bottle jack comes in.

What makes it really easy, but hasn't been mentioned yet, probably because it is so obvious - is that this is all done with the kingpin nut removed and the kingpin itself left to hang free out of the trunion. I see in your photo that is how you have it too. The kingpin is then guided up into the top trunion, and as soon as enough is through to get the nut started, this then takes over from the jack in compressing the spring. Very easy, and perfectly safe.

You do need to have checked in advance that you have the right combination of kingpin shims so that you don't have to remove it all again just to swap out a single shim. Unless you are looking for a candidate for the other "annoying or what!" thread!
Guy Weller

Hi Guy, Christian. when I first did it, I used a lever, but when I bought new springs, -- must have been a bit longer or stiffer -- the spring kept flying off. So I took to jacking it to compress it just enough to push it in with my foot. But it seems that Guy lives more dangerously than me, by using his hand. :).

But I still remove them with a lever.

Lawrence Slater

I should have clarified -

IF - and I stress the if - you're just changing or removing the front road springs then the two bolt method is best as it doesn't interfere with or involve work on other parts or components

I forgot you'll also need a bit of wood to hold the suspension position in its usual position to allow for having the car held up

this method is proven as being simple as I could do it, end of, as Christian would say
Nigel Atkins

Nigel: I would play safe and use four bolts as it gives a bit more control over the spring and pan in that you can tilt it or align it by tightening bolts on one side more than the other.
GraemeW (Kent!)

End of lol... I love it!
Christian Carter

This is the official BMC spring compressor. Anyone ever used one? Bet it wasn't cheap. I do seem to recall trying to modify a pair of small compressors once, but gave up. Unless you're into changing your springs regularly, or on their own, personally, I think the lower and lever methos is the better way to remove springs, since you have to strip the rest off anyway. But it's the results that matter, so whatever way works is good.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, how is it to be used... I can see how those 2 rods would go through 2 holes in the pan... and the main body would screw upwards and compress the spring... so would make it easy to put a spring back in. But how would it help get a spring out? How does it hold the compression?

Christian Carter

So I went with Nigels method... I used the crush tubes from the upper trunions as spacers - see photo (cos I had 2 spare anyway - and I'm using rubbers now too - you need the spacers... wihtout them it would be painfully slow)

I couldn't get m8 studding through the holes, which are about 7.9mm - perhaps they are slightly worn on other pans and wishbones... so I had to use m6... which are strong enough, although its a bit worrying for the last inch or so - best to have more than 2 in just in case one goes PING!
Also note that if you use m6, it was a bit more painful to lever the pan into a postiion where the 2 holes lined up to recieve the 5/16 bolt.

NOTE - if M8 fits in yours... .use m8

But I approve of the method... took about 10 to 15 mins to compress the spring... you can get the first few inches done with a jack to save time, and just wind up the last inch.

Note if you don't want to use studding a 4 inch bolt would be easily sufficient.

C

Christian Carter

Graeme,
as 'belt 'n' braces' I used washers (and 6mm copper pipe spacer tubes to make getting spanners on easier once at top) I also used a second nut on each set screw as a back stop plus as ‘a bit of string’ to add to the 'belt 'n' braces' I also had a scissor jack under the spring seat

my springs are uprated (36Olbs standard ride height at a very good price from Kim Dear at Magic Midget - http://magicmidget.co.uk/ ) but they were fine with just the two bolts

if I had to change just the road springs again I’d use two new bolts and two new nuts (and reuse the washers and spacers I’ve already got) and not bother with back nuts or the scissor jack underneath

but if you or anyone else suggests or uses four bolts then I totally understand and wouldn’t go against it

how frequently you need to change the springs, could as it did with me, depend on whether you've made the mistake of ordering uprated springs from 'T*ss' and had the misfortune to deal with some of their 'er' mangers


Christian,
yes I’ve got to using “end of”
Nigel Atkins

Christian,

8mm is 0.315" and 5/16", which is the spring pan bolts, are 0.3125" so sod all between them so I would expect them to be interchangeable. Likely your bolts have been over tightened and have squeezed the metal in around the bolt holes just enough so the M8 catches. The actual diameter of the M8 and 5/16" UNF fasteners will be slightly smaller but still for practical purposes should be interchangeable.
David Billington

the method certainly not mine I got it from this forum suggested by a couple of posters, it's also in both of the (much maligned by me) Haynes books

I asked for various methods and Guy, Lawrence and Kim Dear gave me their (to me more complicated) methods but as soon as I had the wheel off I thought as I only wanted to change the springs that the bolt method was the simplest for a non-mechanical type like me (even then I had some unrelated problems and a mate had to add some muscle and confidence but that another long story)

just to save any confusion the two metric set screws I used were 13mm spanner size hex head

ETA: as usually happens someone has posted while I was typing

cheers David I couldn't find any info in a quick search that gave such good and clear details to the size of M8 set screws/bolts and as a comparison to the imperial sizes
Nigel Atkins

Haynes has 'not less than 4˝” bolts', the ones I used were 120mm long - but - I can't remember how far from the bottom of the thread the tension is off
Nigel Atkins

Hi Christian. I don't know for sure how the BMC tool would be used. Maybe you have to have been in the union back in the 60's/70's, to have been told the secret. lol.

But I guess you remove two of the original bolts, put that thing in their place, and run the centre up to the spring pan seat. Then you remove the 2nd original set of bolts and gradually lower the central screw.

Actually it looks pretty easy to make one of those.
Lawrence Slater

So if you did that, you'd have lower the wishbone on a jack anyway, so the only thing you're saving is the pry kicking the spring out
Christian Carter

No I assume the idea is that once the pressure is off the spring, you can remove the compressor and drop the whole lot out of the bottom. OK if all you are doing is changing the spring, but more time consuming if you are also stripping the suspension.
Lawrence Slater

That tool looks cumbersome to me. Fine in a fully equipped garage where the car is up on a lift of some sort, but it looks like you would need more clearance underneath the car than I normally achieve with jacks and axle stands.

Even for just removing the spring the bottle jack under the wishbone pan method is pretty quick and simple. You only need to undo one nut - on the top of the kingpin - and that is the only dismantling required. Its slightly easier if you also remove the TRE balljoint and lift the swivel hub off, although even that isn't absolutely necessary if you turn the wheel to full lock position.
Guy Weller

Hi

See this previous thread

http://www2.mg-cars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&access=&mode=archiveth&subject=97&subjectar=97&thread=201103281017593893

I had the opposite problem - too much clearance

In the end I accepted what I had and just got on with it

Regards

Stuart
S G Macfarlane

sorry, I must apologise for my obvious mistake, I'm surprised no one mentioned it, the copper pipe I used as spacers was 8mm (I/D) (not 6)

(it would have to be 8mm to fit over the M8 set screw)

I'd had the off-cut of pipe for a couple of decades and somewhere my mind made it 6 so that's what I thought of it being

I was wondering if using a course thread would speed things up a little

Stuart,
sorry the link doesn't work for me
Nigel Atkins

no - the link doesn't work for me either!

If you search the archive using "slackening stiffen" (all words) it will come up titled Are my kingpins bending

there's got to be a better way..............
S G Macfarlane

yeap found it, the thread's called 'Are my king pins bending??'
Nigel Atkins

I've used the two-bolt method several times, and each removal/replacement has been simple and uneventful.

I just wanted to mention (and I think somebody else did, above) that it's recommended to stick a 1" thick piece of wood between the lever arm and the bump rubber to prevent the wishbone from dropping too far while extracting the spring. I found this helps, as the flatter wishbone angle facilitates slipping the spring through the hole.

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Gryf,
the factory workshop manual says 1.125" (25.87mm), I love the precise metric measurement

I can say that the 1 and 1/8" wood or metal block is best if it's nearer a square thickness rather than 1 and 1/8" on edge otherwise it can fall over and cause the fitted rubber buffer to fly out - guess how I know

that's the downside to fixing cars no matter how many tools you have you need more, which average person, has a selection of different size bits of wood or a 1.125" piece in their wood collection ready for jobs like this
Nigel Atkins

1 1/8" is approx 28.6mm.
Not that I think that level of accuracy is necessary !

R.
richard boobier

sorry, my typo it has it as 28.57mm

my copy of the factory workshop manual is on the official DVD which is very clunky to use and switch between it and other stuff on the computer

I thought it was strange to have it as precise as 1 and 1/8" instead of 1" or 1 and a quarter"
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 14/12/2013 and 21/12/2013

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