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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Type9 woesery again guys

Hi lads, I have been watching but not had anything useful to add, but.

On Friday the thirteenth (It didn't even occur to me) I went to Poole for my annual pilgrimage to Northern France in Lara.

I fitted a replacement engine from Andy Bird last year having munched the piston and cylinder walls en route two years ago by over heating stupidly on the M40.

An old story and not important here but this made it a second run down for this engine which is lovely, so lovely it is possible that diligent care of the speedo kept me with a viable driving licence as we flowed down the A34 after Newbury.

Anyway I got safely to Poole and queued where sent to before boarding the ferry, I was very close to the front when parked up, tottered off upstairs to rest for the voyage to Cherbourg in the restaurant.

In Cherbourg we were fifth or sixth to debark and sitting waiting the signal to go I pushed in the clutch to select first gear.

Horrors, I couldnt get into gear and the whole boat wanted to follow me off.

I couldnt get the gears to select even trying second or third. and the crew and passengers were becoming, interested.

I found that stopping the engine she would go into any gear but not with the engine running.

In a (panic yes I panicked) moment of clarity I put her in first with the engine off and tried starting the car, all was good so I could get off the boat at least.

I was able to get the car running along down in the dock's lanes to the passport control, stopped the engine at the window and was released into France for the drive to Caen where I was due to stay.

While running I was able to select most gears and set off for an interesting drive, occasional slipping of the clutch substituting for different gear ratios.

But the clutch and gearbox combo failed me four roads away from the hotel so I got the recovery option started up on my insurance. Sitting inside a smoke filled Midget wasn't scary at all.

I lied.

Now the point of the posting.

The car comes home to me next week and I want to draw upon the experience of Guy and anyone else who has a type9 fitted with a thick bar behind the gearbox under the mounting rubber.

Should I get the car as high as I can and lower the gearbox back off the bellhousing or ought I attempt to pull the whole lot out over the front ledge and the bonnet slam panel.


Ref the discussions about clutch bleeding:
I use a Ford Granada (probably) concentric which has a long threaded bleed tube that sits inside the hole atop the bellhousing so I don't even have to use an extension assembly to bleed it, slacken the nut and bleed straight out of the top into a bit of hose.
Bill sdgpM

I don't understand Bill.

I have a t9. You can't pull the box off the bellhousing whilst it is still in the car.

You can't pull the gearbox complete with bellhousing off the engine whilst it is still in the car.

Unlike Fords, where you can drop the box from down under with the car high, you can only take a gearbox out of a Sprite, ir off it's engine, by first taking it out via the engine bay.

As for complete or not. I don't know if complete is easy.

I do know that it is easy to pull the engine off the box from the engine bay, take it out, and then take the T9 box out. I find that very easy.

Other than that. Hope you enjoyed the trip though. πŸ˜‰πŸ˜‰

anamnesis

Hi Bill. Great to see you here again on the BBS. It's still much better for discussions than that FB site ever is!

Well the simple answer from me is
I have only ever removed my engine and T9 as a unit. I doubt you could get the gearbox out alone. Engine yes, but not gearbox. I tilt it steeply to get the sump over the slam panel and then pivoting the gearbox up to horizontal as its tail clears the battery box. Do remember to drain the oil first! BTDT Or use a dummy in place of the drive shaft.

I suspect we may both be using the same Ford concentric, though mine was listed as for a Puma or Fiesta (some years). Cost about Β£28 as I recall, though that was years ago! I thought you went SAAB? Mine had the long bleed nipple too though as it barely clears the bell housing case I opted for hard piping to the outside and a bleed nipple attached to one of the upper gearbox bolts. Interestingly, and I don't know why, but mine self bleeds. All I do is slacken off the bleed nipple and wait as fluid flows through, dispelling any air bubbles. No pressing of pedals required! I do use a tube and jar but just to catch the spillage and preserve paintwork. Otherwise, keep the m/c topped up and that's it!

I will be interested to hear your diagnosis. I might even buy a spare!
GuyW

Hi fellows, I think, from the method I used to mount the rear of the box it should be possible to lower the tail of the box through the back of the transmission hole if I take off the prop and speedo cable. And then remove the cross girder I'm holding it up with.

I'm fairly sure that happened once before but my memory is failing as fast as my strength these days.

Guy I find mine self bleeds too if I just leave the nipple loose for a while, I remember cutting out a piece of the upper bellhousing to make room for the remote bleeder and now the nipple just sits in the cavity I left behind.

This is to replace the stinky smelly old driven plate I don't expect to have much life left...


Bill sdgpM

Bill, the transmission tunnel is too narrow to drop the box under the car. If you've cut out sufficient floor from the tunnel, pethaps you can lower the tail. But to what end? You still can't pull the box off the bellhousing, or take the box off the engine that way.

All out, either complete or separately, through the top.

I find/prefer seaparate easier, even when I want the box out. Others favour complete.

anamnesis

Agree with Anam. The bell housing is too fat to pull back into the gearbox part of the tunnel, even with the back of the gearbox tail lowered.
GuyW

Damn that pesky hole, out it is.

:(
Bill sdgpM

I don't know why the picture has turned left coming out of the pooter but this is the state of the gearbox before I take it out today.
(it is right-way-up in my gallery!)

Considering there have been frequent toppings up of the gear box oil over the years it seems to me that at least the front bearing and seal have been healthy.

Having 'rattled' the bearing face which seems OK I don't plan to fit another concentric in this space next time round, this is OK.

Box out today, after a long relaxing 'lie down on the floor'.

Thank you all for being adamant that I couldn't drop the box out back and below, I was definitely on a loser with that.

The space between the chassis rails would have needed to be six inches wider at the very least.

The bleed screw, to the left of the picture can be seen popping out of the extended hole at the top of the A series gearbox bell housing.

This method is even easier to bleed than fitting a separate bleed device such as I used to rely on, often self bleeding in service.

Anyway thanks for still being the best Sprite and Midget resource out there guys.


Bill sdgpM

PS there WAS still oil in it...

Doh.
Bill sdgpM

You mean it's now on the floor?
Dave O'Neill 2

Erm, possibly...

And flowing really slowly downhill.

Possibly.
Bill sdgpM

I have a drive shaft spider coupling, or at least the gearbox end of one, that I plug in to replace the prop shaft when the T9 is out of the car.
As far as I remember it originally connected with a rubber/ webbing disk as part of a flexible coupling for a transit van.
GuyW

I could do with one of those, wonder if there are still local scrapyards?

(have I lost touch huh?)

Choices now between fitting the replacement box as it comes or spending five or six hundred quids for an overhaul, or even try stripping down the new box, fitting new seals and gaskets and hope I can tell if the innards are worth working with?

Well I have bought the gaskets and seals set, we will see in a day or two.
Bill sdgpM

Rubber drive coupling does come in handy, I agree.

I rebuilt 4 T9 boxes. Not that hard at all, and pretty easy to tell what needs doing, from symptoms plus inside inspection when you strip it. No special tools needed, just a bit of improvisation depending on how far you go.

And while you're at it, a tad more expense, but convert it to a long 1st gear. WELL worth the effort, even though more expensive than when I did mine.




anamnesis

My two local scrapyards closed a long time ago and I was sorry when that happened.
Daniel

I have 'refurbished' a t9 with new seals and gaskets plus some of the bearings, though I forget which ones. Where I lack the experience necessary is in identifying visually when bright shiny gear teeth etc are worn or just as they should be.
GuyW

And while it's out drill and tap a thread in the sandwich plate for a drain bung---
Yell out if you need to know the spot to drill----
BUT to be honest your issue sounds more like a clutch issue than gearbox--If you can select all gears with the engine off and it has/had drive then the gearbox itself is most likely ok --more of a clutch issue I'd say----------------------------------------from here.
William Revit

All considerations are welcome Willy but I can be certain the issue is the gearbox, the clutch has been fine except where I burnt it away desperately hoping to drive in fourth through city traffic.

The gearbox did this 'fail to select' once before in March but has been working OK since.

My replacement box arrived this morning and look what was on the back.

I've been stripping my Midget adapting gear from the bad box ready to attempt the refurb on the replacement.

Bill sdgpM

I've never quite understood the function of the adjustable plate on the off side of the box
There is a little fore and aft movement which I have tried it couldn't tell much difference.
There is also guide pin which needs to slot into the right place on assembly or 5th doesn't select. But I can't see that could go wrong once installed.
GuyW

On a type 9 the operating block can fail.
Daniel

Guy--that slotted plate holds the 5th gear selector in place---I usually have the gearlever in place and move it left-right a few times then fit the plate gently feeling(try not to move anything) for a central position. It's there to line up the sideways selector gate. As you say you can't tell much differance, but if it's way out of adjustment sometimes you'll pull out of 5th and the selectors won't line up resulting in it jamming up preventing 1234 being able to be selected untill you spend some time wiggling the gearlever to get it lined up to the gate----until it happens again. Usually only needs the plate moving a little to get it to slip through out of 5th nicely. Also,There's a plunger and spring under the plate as well, another adjustment method is, if you preload this a bit(push it in) it'll locate the selector in the correct for/aft position so that you can then gently judge where to bolt the plate.--If you're not having shifting issues out of or into 5th gear gate leave well alone--
willy
William Revit

Makes sense, Willy.
Without knowing what it did, on assembling the box I would waggle the heat lever around to check that all gears would select. And then fit that side plate in. A roughly central position.

I have tried moving it along it's slotted limits but couldn't detect any difference at the gearstick. But that was just trying it by hand with the box out of the car, not on a running vehicle. Not that I have ever had a problem, - yet!
GuyW

That's a blow, pretty sure I wont be fitting this one.

No oil inside but it looks as if some water found its way into my friend's garage over the years.

Oh well at least it has convinced me to open my own one to look for faults, thanks to youtube videos.

I'll report back if you like.

Bill sdgpM

In the spirit of reporting back, I cannot see me ever getting this opened and derusted, can you?

A pity really because I was hoping to use this tail shaft housing instead of my own which has been battered by life until it quaked.

Second picture showing huge chunk of missing casting which has lost its lump of Quicksteel repair paste.



Vague hopes of making one good un out of two gently receding into the middle distance.




Bill sdgpM

Seen better days, Bill.
- The tail shaft housing I mean. I'm not being personal! 🀣
GuyW

Sadly both of them Guy, not sure what will be feasible.
Bill sdgpM

Well I managed, by dint of much hammering on the tail shaft plug to remove the tail shaft, which means I may be able to salvage it although the inside is full of Aluminium oxided residue.

Does anyone know whether there were two iterations of type 9 tail shaft housing, this one did not have the 5th gear centralising dooberry inside the side plate like my own one.

If I am lucky, and the dog separating things arrive Ill be able to get on with the rebuild.

Which brings me to the most difficult thing I have to do, does anyone know how I can lock the first gear and the reversing gear together so I can undo the 36mm gear locking nut.

Steve's useful video simply says "do it!"
Bill sdgpM

There are 2 types of extension housing, see details in PDF. To lock the shaft I expect you can just engage 2 gears once the interlock plate is removed.
David Billington

Thank you David that is very helpful, I did get the method of locking in the assembly video I studied this afternoon,

Hopefully a decent day in the workshop (OK garage) tomorrow should see me cleaning and checking components ready for the build up.
Bill sdgpM

Bill,

How are you getting on Bill?

I know you have the Haynes WSM, and it's very good too, -- but have you got the official FORD workshop manual PDF?

It's also very good/useful.

anamnesis

I have a copy I could send you Bill.
Only its in German. 😁
GuyW

I have it in an English pdf Guy. I seem to remember posting it here before.

I'll dig it out later.

Meanwhile, you can download it here.

https://www.scribd.com/document/732042857/Ford-Type-9-Transmission

anamnesis

FORD N TYPE TRANSMISSION (Type 9).

ENGLISH VERSION. Official Ford WSM.




anamnesis

Thanks for asking chaps, coming along nicely, even getting inside the rusted up one too.

I have been using Stephen Morten's guiding films on You Tube and have actually begun cleaning up and renewing bearings now but one thing I didn't get from the film is that you need to remove* the layshaft so the gears can drop and lift as required to extract the mainshaft and input shafts.

It took me a couple of days of failing before I worked out how it all hung together inside.


*it came apart during tail cover dismantling so Stephen didn't mention that he'd have had to tap it out of position at the beginning

Oh well

As usual, whyever? the pictures are 90ΒΊ left of angle for display





Bill sdgpM

Repairs begun, the new bearing is on to the input shaft

Looks successful.

Bill sdgpM

I have been taking my time with this rebuild but I think the gods are against me.

I replaced the bearings to find my drive shaft bearing is NOT a tight fit in the front of the gearbox but you know how I found that out dont you, yes with a big hammer when trying to couple the input shaft to the main drive shaft and engage with the laygear too.

The entire gearbox has now seized through the laygear locking onto the drive shaft.

And I cannot get near the inner part of the outer race with a drift to remove it.

And the laygear stops me removing the main shaft.

Doh.



I may be even longer...
Bill sdgpM

This thread was discussed between 26/06/2025 and 19/08/2025

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