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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Waterless coolants again
| Sorry lads i know we've been here before but I just had a very interesting conversation with the bloke who makes/markets the stuff here. He talked to me for 15 minutes and I now have a very good idea of why they actually work. Here is his site: http://liquidintelligence115.com.au/ Whether you believe all the hype, his technical explanation was definitive on this subject, he really knows what he's talking about. I shall be purchasing his product. cheers all |
| R W Bowers |
| I don't suppose someone who has a vested interest in selling a product is going to say anything but how good it is. Do you remember the monorail episode in The Simpsons? Do you actually need said monorail? I cannot help but think of snake oil salesmen.....description on wikipedia... The snake oil peddler became a stock character in Western movies: a travelling "doctor" with dubious credentials, selling fake medicines with boisterous marketing hype, often supported by pseudo-scientific evidence. To increase sales, an accomplice in the crowd (a shill) would often attest to the value of the product in an effort to provoke buying enthusiasm. The "doctor" would leave town before his customers realized they had been cheated. This practice is also called grifting and its practitioners are called grifters. Peter |
| Peter Burgess Tuning |
| Oh come now peter....im sure this stuff does so much more I bet it cures cancer, VD, ed, old age, baldness, poverty, exuberant wealth, stupidity, hunger, drug addiction, cold feet, hoarding...you name it, im sure it does or cures it. Hahaha Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| I'm in no doubt that using a coolant with a higher vapour point and a higher boiling point would solve a great many problems. I've considered using the product ever since I heard about it but it seemed expensive and I was worried about having a leak and losing it. But on reflection it would make sense after an engine rebuild to use it; assuming the engine was leak-free and had new hoses etc. I'm interested enough to look up the current price.. at £65 for 5 litres it's expensive but as the system becomes effectively a no-low pressure system leaks would be slow compared to a water leak. I'm tempted but I might do it! Anyone know what it's made of? Can we make it ourselves |
| Nick Nakorn |
| Its an interesting read for sure, but I feel its still very expermental...id love to see it in action The key words or phrase is low or no pressure, I dont recall right off but I want to say we are running around 17psi on a stock system...he does mention on a pressurised system there is a 30 % efficantcy over stock pressurized system, but I dont know what that actually means...the system runs 30% cooler possiable, meaning you would need a 210 degree stat because a 160 F @ 30% would be to cold equaling 117 degree F. Engine temp, (not good) For $100 plus for 5 liters vs $12 for 10 liters (2 gallons cut 50%) id think there are a number of tricks that could be empoyed 1st... good flush, wash, and boil out along with adding 2 cap fulls of water wetter, and a couple of 1/8th inch holes drilled in the stat face is where id start...those 3 tips can do wonders and are cheap I just cant imagine converting a water system to a steam would be a good thing, esp for our cars that are pressurized...but maybe im missing something I was hoping peter could fill in the gaps, after all he and I are both old cynics for a flare of the eye roll sighs....(good grief really?) When it comes to something totally new and world changing beyound the normal avg. Lets face it, TV is just a fad and will disappear any moment now and the world sure looks flat to me |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| I've been running it in my car, and it is working just fine for me, so far (I adopted it after a full rebuild last year). Haven't had the opportunity to measure the pressure at temperature. They say the operating pressure is lower because the working temperature is so much farther away from its vapor point than a water based system is. The key caveat is that passenger car systems are designed with a lot of margin, so adopting a very different coolant like this is usually pretty risk free. But, for racing applications the system is optimized for minimal margin, for a variety of reasons, and in that case, one must be very careful to confirm everything before making any big change. Jay Leno uses it in all of his classic cars now, and he drives them all the time, in all kinds of weather, and his are all kinds of extremes from garden variety Packards to insanely unique Merlin engined one-offs. Also, the Mazda racing web site has a lot of guys who have adopted it to great effect in their rotary engines. I don't have enough experience with it yet to categorically declare it is OK for anyone to use, but after reading up on it quite a bit I determined it was worth a try. The extra cost is nothing compared to what I spent on everything else during the rebuild, so it looked like cheap insurance against needing future cooling system work, if it works out. YMMV, Norm |
| Norm Kerr |
| Norm, I just looked out the window....the world still looks flat to me ! Hahaha Wow norm, very cool of you taking on the roll of a gerbel, caution stay away from richard geer, I hear he has a "special" kind of love for the little guys...hahaha Seriously do tell, what did you do to the system to prep for it, how did you install it, whats your opinion so far, whats your fears, what do you want to accomplish with it...im your new biggest fan, im definatly looking forward to any updates you will have I am curious about how the water pump gets lubricated, is there enough lubes and chemicals in the steam vapor to adequately lube the pump bearings ? Btw norm, I know its not necessary ... but I wouldnt have pooed on your parade and been more supportive had I known you were the playing a test gerbal for this product in our cars... its all in good fun until someone decideds to start running thur the house carrying a large pair of sharp siccors Intelligent coolent now has increased its street cred by 3 whole points...it has some legs. Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Norm, It would interesting if you could measure your system pressure with the waterless coolant and report back. I mentioned when this was discussed recently that the expansion of ethylene/ propylene glycol is about 3 times that of water so hard to see how the pressurisation is less with a waterless coolant. |
| David Billington |
| Ive been thinking about this for several moments now. Im guessing the water pump becomes an anchor along for the ride and dosnt really do anything Its all about the stat opening and closing that cirulates the steam/vapor...if so I guess you better make sure its one of those fail safe stats Im thinking if this system fails, its going to be a huge fail for the entire engine very quickly If there is no coolant/water.... what is the gauge senor reading...I know its reading the temp of the steam vapor, but is that actually an accurate spec. It certianly is intresting to think about Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Digression: In old low powered engines there was a thermosiphon cooling system that did not require water pumps. |
| Trevor Jessie |
| I still need someone to explain why it is better than water when it has not got the specific heat capacity of water and cannot reject heat as fast either. I also want someone to explain how using 3-4 bhp more to pump it compared to water is better. I also want someone to explain why, if it is already perfect, a mark two formulation is lower viscosity to use less pump horsepower? I have seen the differences first hand under load on the dyno. Not seat of the pants stuff. This reminds me a little of the best thing since sliced bread boxer quad su carbs manifold for rover v8s, we argued they were poorly designed and didnt work(again dyno testing, not seat of the pants).....where are they now? Peter |
| Peter Burgess Tuning |
| Prop, you're joking I assume.. steam is not involved...:-) |
| Nick Nakorn |
| Hey nick Im not joking, but im probably misinformed...I assumed by vapor that equaled steam...sorry for the misinteratation Sooo does this mean that lead balls placed into gas.tanks dont actually add lead to non leaded gasoline, cause that would really suck....hahaha Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Prop, Steam isn't used exclusively but as I said in the other thread more heat is taken up when water at 100C changes to steam at 100C than in the heating of water from 0C to 100C so localised boiling absorbs a great deal of energy, the problem is when is gets excessive and a vapour pocket forms that isn't shifted by the coolant flow. |
| David Billington |
| DO NOT USE IT IN OLD THERMOSIPHON COOLED ENGINES!! It has given us a lot of problems in a J2 that kept overheating when the owner/other garage filled it with waterless coolant. In the end we switched back to water/glycol mix and never had a problem again. I don't see why you would want to use it either. When the cooling system is in good nick then it should cope just fine with water/glycol mix. So when you have problems fix them and don't resort to these expensive non cures |
| Onno K |
| "Anyone know what it's made of?" Propylene glycol |
| Geoff Ev |
| """Anyone know what it's made of?" Propylene glycol""" Now that I think about it... Ive been selling my self made yellow lemonaid for the past several years for 25 cents a gallon That might explain its popularity Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Geoff, Propylene glycol or ethylene glycol or a blend of the two is the main constituent typically. I kind of thought normal ethylene glycol antifreeze was neat with the corrosion package and you diluted it with water to the required ratio so why not use that. I noted that the MSDS details appears to have gone missing from the liquid intelligence site so no checking on the basic makeup currently. |
| David Billington |
| Hi Lads the gist of the explanation was that water develops bubbles well before 100 c, at around 85 c apparently, which is what the thermostat reacts to. What the temperature is at the cylinder head and around the block is unknown. It's the bubbles which render the water/glycol mix a less than efficient heat transfer medium and the "snake oil" a better one regardless of what it's made of. All I know is that I'm constantly on the limits of my car's cooling system's capacity hence my search for a cure. Cheers all |
| R W Bowers |
| Why did the race engines expire with the more efficient expensive waterless coolant and ran fine and made more power with cheap less efficient water as the coolant. I cannot get my head round the concept of the wc being better in any way. You also have to remember we are raising the boiling point of water as we are running under pressure with water. I do not know what temp the free O2 leaves the solution, maybe Dave can tell us? I am only reporting what I found in practice. You can say I built the engines wrong 9even though one of the engines had nothing to do with me) You could say I tuned them wrong. The only failures were on wc engines. I understand many many other folk have stopped using the wc too. Most folk will not be bothered to share info. I am happy to do so as I see the wc as a waste of money....dont forget it even tells you on the tin the engine will run hotter. No one has addressed the reason for formulation wc2 as opposed to the ultimate wc1, maybe it is postultimate? Peter |
| Peter Burgess Tuning |
| The theory goes: -the hotter the engine, the better the thermal efficiency (up to a point). -The hotter the coolant, the more efficient the radiator. The advantages are that Waterless Coolant runs hotter than water, doesn't need to be pressurised to remain well below its boiling point, doesn't wear out, and doesn't allow corrosion. The disadvantages are pumping losses due to the higher viscosity and lower specific heat capacity. It would be a terrible choice in a race car. In a race car you can fit a huge radiator if you need to, you want the least pumping losses and the highest ability to absorb heat. Keeping the system pressurised is easy when you're tearing it down multiple times a season. Water is perfect. In a classic, though, it's a no-brainer. I'm using it on the Mini because it makes the factory radiator work much better, it doesn't allow corrosion, I don't have to worry about keeping the pressure in, and I (should) never have to change it. |
| Growler |
| Hey Growler, when working on race cars we were always trying to minimise radiator size for the sake of better aero. |
| Nick Nakorn |
| Doesn't a splash of antifreeze and corrosion inhibitor do the same job at a fraction of the price? Smaller radiator with water bigger radiator with waterless because of the heat transfer properties. Why do you want the engine to run hotter which it does with wc. Peter |
| Peter Burgess Tuning |
| You can change the thermostat to make the engine run hotter ;). Then the radiator will be more efficient. But you need to raise the boiling point of the cooling water, perhaps by fitting a radiator cap! Cooler engine running = more power. Is anyone really that bothered by the extra mile per gallon you may get by running the engine hotter? If you are get a small modern diesel or fit a 1.4 K series. Dave |
| Dave Brown |
| ISTR there's an optimum temp for a given engine for max power, too cool or too hot, both bad. Peter do you have any data on this? |
| David Smith |
| Sorry David, I haven't a clue. I think cooler is power, hotter is better mpg. A friend of mine used to race a TR8 V8, he always kept it below 70C claiming best for power on engine dyno. it was very successful winning back to back championships so maybe he was correct. My old Vitesse V8 used to give a couple of good runs on the rollers then crap as it got hotter, I thought the efi was the culprit. Peter |
| Peter Burgess Tuning |
| Dave, "Cooler engine running = more power." might be oversimplifying. To be more clear, you need to split that into two statements; 1. Cooler intake charge = more power 2. Less heat absorbed by the combustion chamber walls = more power The first one's easy to understand: it's that thing what happens on a cold day when your car just feels a bit more powerful than usual. A cooler intake charge is more dense, and so more fuel can be burnt. Modern high-efficiency engines try to keep the intake charge cool and dense until the last possible moment, using tricks like picking up the intake air from the front of the car, plastic inlet manifolds, isolated inlet manifolds, intercoolers, and short ports in the cylinder head. The second one is a bit trickier. Combustion gases expand when they burn, pushing on the pistons. The hotter the gases, the more they push. If the combustion chamber absorbs heat from the burning charge, there's less heat left for expansion. Modern high-efficiency engines try to limit heat absorption through material selection (ceramic coatings on pistons and valves, choice of metals for cylinder linings and head), but also by running the engine block and head hotter. A cylinder block at 100C will absorb less heat than a cylinder block at 50C. The first factor (a cool intake charge) is easy to implement, and makes for the most impressive power gains. The second factor (lowering heat absorption) is hard work for relatively minor gains in power. In an older engine, the intake charge is usually warmed by the manifold and ports long before it makes it to the combustion chamber. If you run the old engine hotter in an attempt to limit heat absorption, the additional heat added to the intake charge will probably lose more power than you gain. Running an older engine hotter has other disadvantages too: you're closer to the boiling point of the coolant, coolant flow paths aren't as well designed as in a modern engine (possibility of a hot spot and localised boiling), and tolerances that work at a lower temperature might not work so well at higher temperatures (I'm thinking of piston rings, primarily, where an overheat can cause the gaps to close up to the point of seizure). Whenever you're tuning an engine you need to identify the things that limit power and eliminate them. For my Mini it's the size of the radiator. To make the stock sized radiator work better, the coolant needs to be hotter. Waterless coolant does that perfectly, but hotter coolant means a hotter intake charge. To compensate for that I've added heat shielding to the inlet manifold, ceramic coating to the exhaust manifold, a cold air pickup pipe that runs to the grille, and a sodding great big air box above the carbs. Which sort of negates the point of a stock-looking radiator, but such is the way of madness. Speaking of madness, I should stop typing. |
| Growler |
| We also experimented with cooled fuel. I don't understand why the rad works better if it is hotter. Unless you are thinking along the lines of the heat gradient twixt the coolant/tube walls and air? Not sure why this woul reject heat quicker, didn't work on our race engines with wc, system overwhelmed and compromised. I understand Evans not sponsoring MG racing this season. Peter |
| Peter Burgess Tuning |
| Absolutely it's the heat gradient. It's all about the temperature difference between the coolant and the air. Imagine the tiny radiator you could use if you could guarantee that all races would be held when the air temperature was at 0C, rather than the normal* 20C. Sadly, only racing when air temperature is 0C isn't practical, but if you raise the coolant temperature by 20C you should see the same improvement. That's, of course, the theory. I have yet to test it by running the Mini in a race, at full power for hours. I may well find that the radiator is still too weak, but rough calculations are favourable. I'm very curious about why it didn't work with your race engines. "Overwhelmed and compromised" sounds definite, but I'd like to know more about what exactly went wrong. Do you mean it got hot enough that the waterless coolant boiled? (Bloody hell, that would be a sight to see!) Or just so hot that you started having other heat-related issues like excessive friction, oil varnish, fuel vapourisation, etc? |
| Growler |
| We had detonation problems to contend with and engine slowly got hotter and hotter till it seized on 4 and partially on 3. System could not dissipate heat fast enough which worries me about your temp gradient theory because the system was fine with water. We have also seen valves nip in with heads running too hot, localised overheating which does not show up on temp gauge. Peter |
| Peter Burgess Tuning |
| Also I do not think you are considering the slower uptake of heat from the bores into the coolant with wc, again, localised overheating. If the shc is only 68% ish or whatever of water it cannot absorb the heat as fast. Peter |
| Peter Burgess Tuning |
| LOL! You posted while I was midway through the screed below. You're absolutely right, but here 'tis anyway: Interesting. Scary, but interesting. To experiment further would be risky, so I imagine you'll stick with water as a coolant. The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages in a well-maintained, high performance engine. However I have an idea of what might have happened: the best radiator in the world won't do any good if the coolant can't deliver the engine's heat fast enough. Waterless coolant has a much lower specific heat capacity than water, so to transport the same amount of heat using the same volume of coolant it would need to flow faster. I bet you've got a nice big pulley on your water pump, sized so that it moves just enough water at peak power to keep the engine cool, while not wasting energy moving too much water. I suspect that once you changed to waterless coolant, the flow rate was no longer enough to shift all the heat the engine was producing. That would explain the gradual increase of temperature. The localised overheating is an interesting side effect of waterless coolant's higher boiling point. Water actually has two modes of cooling- generally heat energy makes the water warmer and flow carries the warmer water away. But when water turns to steam, it can carry much more heat energy due to the latent heat of vapourisation. This works to our advantage when there's a localised hotspot. Water boils at one small spot, but the larger volume of surrounding water absorbs and carries the heat away. Waterless coolant doesn't do this (and if you read some of the snake oil literature they make out that it's a good thing!) so your hotspots are going to be hotter than they would be with water. Again, increased coolant flow is the solution, and a bit of overcooling on the rest of the engine be damned. |
| Growler |
| ...which might also explain why waterless coolant seems to be reliable on a road car, but problematic on a race engine. Road cars' coolant flow rates are designed for sitting in traffic, but are way higher than necessary at full power. I wonder how many people using waterless coolant also use that vehicle as a commuting hack? They might have issues. |
| Growler |
| Growler, Do you find your system runs at a lower pressure with waterless coolant as they say. I have a hard time understanding that with the volumetric expansion of ethylene/propylene glycol being about 3 times that of water and so far no one seems to have checked if it is so and posted a result. |
| David Billington |
| Vizard states "..for maximum hp from your Series A engine it needs to be run at 70C / 160F". Use of a bigger radiator will result in increased weight [from radiator and coolant] which is not welcome in a race car. |
| D Plumb |
| When coolant (any coolant) expands, it pushes against the radiator cap. The radiator cap has a spring-backed valve in it which holds the coolant in until coolant pressure exceeds the spring's pressure. Coolant gets pushed past the spring-backed valve until the pressure in the radiator is again equal to the pressure on the spring. This happens all the time as the coolant warms up, until the coolant is at a steady temperature and the pressure is held. (the coolant which gets pushed past the radiator cap is captured in the overflow tank, and when the coolant cools again the lack of pressure sucks the lost coolant back into the radiator) Water needs to be pressurised to increase its boiling point. Waterless coolant doesn't. If you're using waterless coolant, there's no advantage to pressurising the system- you should change your radiator cap to a plain cap which has no pressure valve. Coolant that expands will still move past the cap into the overflow tank. Once you've replaced the old radiator cap with a plain cap there will not be any pressure in the cooling system at all. It scares the bejesus out of petrol station attendants when you whip the radiator cap off! The expansion rate of waterless coolant is an issue, but not because of pressurisation. Waterless coolant expands more than water. You're probably going to need a bigger overflow tank. Water expands to 1.000214 times its size for every degree celsius it gains. Propylene* Glycol expands to 1.00057 times its size for every degree Celsius. So when your 20 litre cooling system gets to 100C it will have to find room for 20.428 litres of water, or 21.14 litres if you're running Propylene Glycol. If your expansion tank is only 0.8 litres, you're going to run into trouble using waterless coolant. Your expansion tank is going to overflow when hot (until the system has been cycled a few times), and you're going to end up with air in your radiator when it all contracts as it gets cold. You could leave your expansion tank the same size, and only check coolant levels when it's hot, you'll just need to be careful that it doesn't draw so much air into the system when cold that it creates an air lock. *Actually this is the figure for ethylene glycol, which is close enough. |
| Growler |
| Hah! 20 litres. I'm thinking of the monster truck again, because that's the one I pull apart the most often. Stupid thing. Let's say you have a more Mini-sized cooling system of 5 litres. At 100C you'll have to deal with 5.107 litres of water, or 5.285 litres if you're running waterless. Which explains why I don't have issues with the overflow bottle being too small. |
| Growler |
| Growler, I understand all that but it doesn't explain one of the selling points of waterless coolant where they say the system pressure will be lower due to the lower vapour pressure of waterless coolant at the operating temperature. I see system pressurisation at normal running temperatures where water is less than 100C as a function of the volumetric expansion of the fluid and not its vapour pressure so don't see why the pressure would be lower with waterless if it expands more. |
| David Billington |
| Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me either. Either you're running pressurised, in which case the pressure cap regulates the pressure, or you're running atmospheric, in which case there's no pressure to regulate. Either way pressure from boiling coolant is going to be released. Some of the marketing material for waterless coolant seems to be a little confused. They tend to treat "lower vapour pressure" and "higher boiling point" as synonyms, and use whichever term sounds the most relevant. From memory Evans make a fuss about the lack of spot boiling when using their coolant, and I think their reasoning is "Boiling bad, make heap big steam, make big pressure go boom" (even though spot boiling is actually better than what Evans coolant does, the steam produced is rapidly reabsorbed, and if your cooling system is over pressurising then you've got problems unrelated to your choice of coolant.) Maybe they're referring to the localised pressure buildup where spot boiling happens? But when was the last time you heard of a head cracking because of pressure from inside the cooling jacket. |
| Growler |
| I am with Peter on this one - Glycol/waterless coolant used on its own is worse at transferring the heat away from the cylinder walls than a glycol/water mix - ideally no greater than 50% glycol, for the UK 33% is more than adequate. The water pump is essential for circulating the coolant and avoiding hot spots - thermosiphon systems use much larger passageways. I have seen engines that have been run on glycol /water all their lives with regular changes and the inside of the block and head are like new - no corrosion at all. I see absolutely no advantage to the long life coolant, except to the sellers pocket and given the rubbish Kevlar hoses that people also fit you are likely to dump all your coolant in one brief instant - an expensive exercise! |
| Chris at Octarine Services |
| lol - having looked at this guys website he seems to specialise in snake oil - http://liquidintelligence115.com.au/products/blown-head-gasket-repair Not sure I would rely on this stuff fixing a blown gasket - especially if it was the usual blow between 2 & 3 on a B series block! |
| Chris at Octarine Services |
| If you use a small w/pump pulley and speed the flow up the problem is even worse. At the end of the day, this fluid is not suitable for the use we need from it. Others may say it is the best thing since sliced bread, but, as I said in t'other wc thread, it is a case of the Emporers New Clothes......or......pay enough for a product and you will convince yourself it is better to justify the lighter wallet. I just do not see the need for this product at all. Now Evans not sponsoring a specific MGB I wonder if the owner will continue with the wc? Peter |
| Peter Burgess Tuning |
| Just curious... Are we staying with rocks and pitchnforks or are we going to progress to battle axes and broad swords I know peter is just itching to try out his archery skills :-) :-) :-) Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Like this Prop? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErQMxqvfBU mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm green tights :) Peter |
| Peter Burgess Tuning |
This thread was discussed between 21/02/2014 and 28/02/2014
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