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MG MG Y Type - Brake Drum Removal Problem

Chaps,

I continue to be in a world of pain - please help.
One of my rear brakes is binding on a bit and I find that I am unable to remove the brake drum to see what's going on.
Is there any way that I can force the brake to release a bit so that I can get the drum off?
I'm pretty certain that the problem is nothing to do with the hand-brake so it's probably related to the wheel cylinder or some other mechanical snarl-up.
I've smacked the rear edge of the drum with a hammer, hard, a lot and it gives a little bit but only such that I think it is slightly pulling the brake shoes off the back plate rather than the drum coming away from the shoes themselves at all.
I imagine the brake shoes are sat in a rut inside the drum and trapped in by a lip that has built up through years of rubbing.
Please help before I get so cross that I use my hammer destructively.

Cheers,
Saul.
Saul Duck

Is it a YA or YB....if all else fails do not carry on bashing the drum with a hammer as you may well break it. You could try taking the drum and brake back plate off as one unit by removing it from the axle and take it to a garage if you cant get the vehicle there. Of course that would involve undoing the brake pipes and the nuts on the backplate etc.If you are out of your depth with the problem seek advice from a person who can help locally.
D MULLEN

Given that you have a YT Saul my guess is you have had a return spring failure. They are either worn or over-stretched and a shoe may have popped out of its retaining lug and jammed against the side of the drum.

When you get the drum to wiggle can you get a screwdriver in to move the brake shoes at all and see if either is out of alignment? If so can you move it so it binds less?

Another thing you can do is get a propane torch/gun and heat the entire drum up and then try wiggling it off using heavy leather welders gloves. You will have to heat the drum quickly and evenly and get it quite hot to expand enough to come over the misalignment of the shoes. Be very careful though as the drum will need to be quite hot to expand enough to get it off. Once off let it cool slowly and naturally.

I am also going to suggest to you before you do any of the above, that you thoroughly slacken BOTH sides of the brake shoes off using the rear adjusters. As we say in the fire department, TRY BEFORE YOU PRY!
Paul Barrow

Saul, The suggestion of taking the back plate and drum off as one will not work. To get the back plate off you have to remove the wheel bearing .... and to do that, you have to remove the drum!

I assume you have removed the slotted screws? I suggest you slacken the hand brake cable off at the lever and try again. If that doesn't work I suggest you use a RUBBER hammer to hit the front and back of the drum in such a direction that it will push the pistons in if they are seized. (I.e hammer direction is from the front and rear of the car.) If the handbrake cable has seized in the flexible outer, loosening the two small bolts which hold the cable flange to the back plate might give you a small amount of slack needed. Unfortunately they will possibly just spin around but if the nuts are visible (not the heads) you could slot the end of the bolts with a hacksaw so they can be held while the nuts are loosened.

A "long shot" suggestion is to loosen the bleeder nipple in case there is a bit of pressure in the system due to faulty return in the master cylinder. ...... Such pressure would cause ALL the brakes to bind.

Good luck with the job.
Bob Schapel
R L Schapel

Thanks guys.
Starting with the very basics - I have removed the screws holding the drum on and also loosened the brake shoe adjusters.
I can drive the car a short distance so could get it to a garage but I fail to see what they might be able to do that I cannot do at home (other than the getting it really hot plan).
The wheel does turn a bit and is much more free to spin once the drum is loosened off a bit so it's possible that the binding is partly a front to back thing rather than totally side to side.
I will try loosening the handbrake cable but I'm pretty sure it's not that. I will also try getting a screwdriver between the drum and the back-plate but I don't think the drum moves enough to allow that. I'll give the "long-shot" with the bleeder nipple a go too because it's nice and easy to do.
I'm not feeling very hopeful though :-(
Saul Duck

I think you can take the drum and backplate off in one unit at least on the rear of the YB. Not that its any use on a YT!
D MULLEN

If you have a seized wheel cylinder that won't back off, you need a large 3-leg outside puller to remove the drum.

Apply tension with the puller, then tap the perimeter of the drum with a RUBBER hammer - remember the drums are steel NOT cast iron, so you can get them out of shape with a steel hammer pretty quick.

If you are in need of another brake drum, I have about 30 of them in my shed, but postage won't be cheap !.

Tony Slattery
Black Mountain QLD
Australia
A L SLATTERY

Tony,
I won't ask why you've got 30 brake drums!!

I'm stuck at work - does anybody know the max diameter of a YA/T (rear) brake drum? It's going to need a "long reach" puller is it not!

Cheers,
Saul.
Saul Duck

The diameter of the rear flange of the brake drum is around 295mm or 11.6".

Why all the brake drums - good question - there are more than 30 saloon doors too !. My family will pay for my funeral with scrap metal one day........

Cheers

Tony
A L SLATTERY

Well done Tony for keeping all those spares...reminds me of why I have a soft spot for Australia. .some great enthusiasts ....rust is far less of a problem than here in the UK too so I bet some of those door panels are still in good condition.
D MULLEN

Saul,

If the problem is caused by a seized cylinder, maybe you could take out the two bolts which fix the cylinder to the back plate and twist the cylinder in its circular hole. You would have to loosen the hydraulic banjo connection first.

I can not remember if I had the wheel cylinders sleeved in brass/stainless when I had the car. I think I probably did. If this is the case I doubt that they would be seized.

I will email you with details of engine work I did on the car when I owned it.

Bob Schapel
R L Schapel

No luck so far :-(
Basically I removed everything I possibly could from the rear of the back-plate. So I have disconnected the cylinder completely (banjo, nipple and two fixing bolts). Now I can wiggle the cylinder around a bit and it is clearly being held end-to-end by the tops of the shoes, which is just as it should be if the return spring is functioning okay.
I also completely loosened off the handbrake cable on that side.
The only thing this achieved is that on loosening the cylinder the drum seems even more wedged on, particularly (I think) near the bottom.
My gut feel is that the cylinder is not seized but that the handbrake lever mechanism at the wheel is somehow fouled-up. However I could be wrong and in any case I'm still at a bit of a loss as to what can be holding the drum on quite so earnestly.
I think I need a puller but am struggling to find one big enough that isn't about a million pounds.
I found this one on ebay:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201107972812?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
"3 Jaws 15 Ton Hydraulic Separator Hub Puller Gear Bearing Garage Tool Set Kit"
Which apparently has a max spread of 300mm but looking at the pictures I don't think that it would be able to handle the depth of the drum when nearing this spread limit.
Any further help, advice or details of a suitable puller would be very, very gratefully received.
Saul Duck

Ok, you have a real problem with this one.

There is one other way !!!..

If you can remove the drum and axle from the other side of the car, you can use a long bar or pipe (through the diff centre) to drift out the axle (& the brake drum) on the problem side.

The screws that retain the drums are the only screws that hold the axle to the rear hubs, so if you have got all 3 of those out, you should be able to use the axle to remove the drum.

This is pretty desperate stuff, but it's all I can suggest without that big puller, or sacrificing the drum with an angle grinder !.

Good Luck

Tony
A L SLATTERY

Saul,

I have emailed you off line. But also have found a puller online that would do the job it has wide enough span http://www.skf.com/group/products/maintenance-products/mechanical-tools-for-mounting-and-dismounting/bearing-pullers/external-pullers/standard-jaw-pullers/index.html

The part number TMMP 3x300 there is supplier based in Southampton and I have phoned them to ask cost of the puller and to see if they would loan one for one off job, with deposit, they were going to find out come back to me. Finger crossed may be lucky.

Richard
R E Knight

Thanks Richard.
That looks to be just the thing. It also has the look of being many hundreds of pounds but we'll see what they say. Thank you so much for checking this out for me.
Tony's suggestion is utterly ingenious but also quite insane. I am sorry to admit that the angle grinder option is moving closer to the top of my list, especially as (like I said offline) a refurbished drum from NTG is less than £35 (which I imagine is cheaper than postage from Oz)!
My continued appreciation to you all and I hope that whatever I discover when I finally get the drum off is worth all this nonsense and worthy of sharing a photo or two.
Cheers,
Saul.
Saul Duck

Saul,
Is this what you are looking for. A small batch of these pullers were made by Ted Gardner some years ago.
I've emailed you directly.
Keith


Keith D Herkes

Thanks Keith.
I think that puller would have to be for a YB.
Unless someone can tell me that I'm being completely dim (distinctly possible) I don't believe it would be of any help in my quest to remove my YT drum.
Huge thanks for trying to help though.

In terms of an update on my plight I have to admit that yesterday evening I simply couldn't face any more time crouching next to the car in my cramped garage. I'll give it another good go tomorrow...

Cheers,
Saul.
Saul Duck

Saul.

The puller that Keith shows is adaption of the Churchill special tool part 18G304 and is specific to YB only. This will not help you, in any case I have couple of original pullers so would have helped you by now if it worked.

Richard
R E Knight

Hoorah!! Drum is finally off thanks to the loan of a suitable puller - thanks Richard.
There's no way I could have done it without a puller.
Looks like the problem was due to nothing more interesting than one side of the cylinder being stuck out a bit.
Very dull but very satisfying to now be finally able to proceed.

Thanks again to all of you that helped and advised.

Cheers,
Saul.
Saul Duck

Hi Saul

I was pretty much thinking that when I said "I am also going to suggest to you before you do any of the above, that you thoroughly slacken BOTH sides of the brake shoes off using the rear adjusters."

I guess if it had popped out you would not have enough freeplay to by pass it.

Glad you got it out.

Paul
Paul Barrow

Indeed - the adjuster on same side as that of the stuck piston did nothing more than spin like a (stiff) windmill.
Would have been a clue to someone brighter than me!

Cheers,
Saul.
Saul Duck

Now that you have the drum off Saul, when did you last renew the springs between the shoes (return springs)? I would suggest it might be a good idea if they are all original to replace them all round in all drums which should hopefully help avoid over extension again. The springs are available for MG Y/YT drums from NTG.

Paul
Paul Barrow

Yes, of course the puller is for the YB- silly me - and I carted it all the way to Beaulieu for nothing. Keith
Keith D Herkes

Hi Saul

Paul is spot on about replacing the return spring.I suggest though that you try the Octagon MG CC for your spares. Phone Pete Moore the Secretary on 01458 611746. They are often much cheaper than other main T and Y Suppliers (Moss, NTG and Brown and Gammons) for a range of spares.
Have Fun
Jerry
Jerry Birkbeck

Thanks again to all.
I have a package of brake re-build goodies (including springs) arriving from NTG today and am almost looking forward to working my way round all of the wheels over the next few weeks, now that I know what I'm doing.

Cheers,
Saul.
Saul Duck

TIP - only dismantle one axle at a time, that way you can use the other as a reference point Saul.
Paul Barrow

This thread was discussed between 16/05/2016 and 24/05/2016

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