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MG MG Y Type - UK seat belt laws

Advice please on UK law concerning seat belts.
I think that as they were never fitted we are legal.
The real question is can my grandchildren ride in the car without using seat belts or is there an age restriction where they must be wearing belts regardless of front or back seat?
Michael YA 7141

http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/seatbelts.htm

The above link answers your question
Richard Knight

Michael, without checking Richard's kind posting as to the exact word of the law, I think I am correct (and stand to be corrected if not - so check the link) that your Y is exempt on the seatbelt law. Safety considerations may lead you to want to retro fit them though, and that would be entirely your discretion. Once fitted though, wearing would be mandatory and they would also become an MOT Test item. With the computerization of UK MOT Test, this might then pose a problem for a later buyer who (like me) does not want them in the car as they are not PERIOD.

If you do fit them they would have to be secured in such a way as to be attached to the chassis members and would have to comply with the requirements of fitting/bolting etc.

My own personal view is that we are probably reasonably safe without them on the basis that we are not only paying attention to our driving more as we dont want anything to happen to our little car than the regular motorist is of their modern piece of junk, and we are thinking that they are wondering what on earth that was so we are aware they may not have their full attention on the road either. Accordingly we are anticipating their potential bad driving more than usual too. That is of course only my personal view!

Any such modification should also be reported as a REPORTABLE mod to your insurance company too though. If they tell you you dont need to worry about that I would get that in writing from them before not worrying. Changing your insurer you would be advised to get new confirmation from the new insurer!

Paul
Paul Barrow

thank you richard for the link.
I item below two points from the link,

1/ Children become adult at age 14.

2/ Older cars that do not have seatbelts:
Do not need to have them fitted and worn, but cannot be used for carrying children.

From this I understand that children under the age of 14 can NOT be carried in my MGY.

I welcome anyone else reading the link and giving their opinion.


Michael YA 7141

Michael, I disagree. If you look at the government website highwaycode.gov.uk, it states that children over 3 need to be in correct restraints IF seatbelts are available. If no seatbelts are fitted it would seem to be legal to carry children oiver 3 years old. The MGOC magazine had an article about this some while ago - it might be worth contacting them.Cheers, Dave
DM Gibson

There are considerable risks in carrying unsecured minors in a vehicle, however, the risks were there in the 60s when I was a kid and I survived. This is probably due in no small measure to the fact that when we were in the car it was a case of ass on seat, feet on the floor and dont play with the doors or windows ... on pain of being "disciplined" (you cant hardly say smacked now!)

I am reminded of that scene in the film Transporter 2 where the kid gets in the chauffuer's car and the chauffuer says "What are the rules of the car", and the first rule is "Greet the man", and the second is "Respect the man's car".

The third is buckle up ... but that is what we are talking about - the modern Audi had seat belts - front and rear!

Paul
Paul Barrow

I would like seat belts fitted if possible - my insurance company says its ok to fit them but as it has been said the MOT tester may not agree with HOW they are fitted. Is there no firm that will fit belts that the MGCC feels are competent to do the job?
David Mullen

Hi David

I very much doubt the MGCC would give such an endorsement of any company purely on the basis that the assessment of 'correctness' would later be made by a third party (the MOT Tester) and the MGCC would then technically be on the hook legally for having given you a recomendation to go to the first place. Not an enviable position, so they wont go there, and neither (for the same reasons) would the Y Register.

Your best bet, if you really want to go down that route, would be to probably get the garage where you get your MOT testing done to carry out the fitting. That way you will only have the one party to deal with if they subsequently turn around and tell you they are inappropriately fitted.

That is probably not what you wanted to hear, but that is about the best advice on that score that you will get from anyone. I am not even suggesting this myself in any official capacity you will notice!

Your friend,

Paul
Paul Barrow

Thanks for the information Paul. Thinking about it I can well understand the MGCC/Y reg position - I like the bit about getting the garage that does the MOT to do it - I will have to do something as passengers (wife and teen girls!)in the car are so used to having seat belts that they get a bit concerned.My other car is currently waiting for a part and we have been using only the Y all week - great stuff (for me anyway). Will keep you posted if I manage to get some fitted (at least in the back seats).
David Mullen

A. Are the seats in a Y-Type attached to the body or to the frame? If you fit belts, consider securing them to whatever the seats are attached to. Reason being that in a collision the body may shift on the frame. If the belts are attached to the frame and the seats move forward violently, you could be killed. This is the case in T-Series cars.

B. While I also have no belts in my YB, I must still disagree with Paul on being safer because of driving carefully in an unusual car. It was not long ago that an entire family was killed when the 6,000-pound pre-war Packard tourer they were driving in was struck from the side and knocked over by a mid-size modern sedan. Had they worn seat belts they may all have lived, but the point is that being careful only somewhat reduces the chances of being clobbered. To most people, a Y-Type is just a slow old car in their way.

C. Not to pick on Paul here but he's offered so much advise that the odds are in favor of it being him. ;) Today's society is way over the top with safety, but not buckling up children just because we survived is something I don't agree with. My crib was painted with lead paint but I didn't eat it. We had no child-proof bottles, but fortunately I didn't get into the medicine cabinet. We didn't have seat belts but the only reason we are alive today is because we weren't in a major collision while unbuckled. Many people back then were not so lucky. Today's roads are so much more crowded that the likelihood of a collision is far greater than 50 years ago. It's the safety features of modern cars that keep the death toll down.

My two cents (or pence) is this... I appreciate the originality of any car, and I hate the looks of belts in a vintage automobile. But if it will be used for anything other than occasional Sunday drives on safe roadways, seat belts are a very good idea. Our Y-type does no real touring, but we drive our TC on a multi-thousand mile trip each year. It has belts.
Steve Simmons

Steve - the Y has similar arrangements to a T type - wooden floors bolted to the body with seats fixed to the floor. Take your point about problems with chassis fixings if the car body moves in a crash. What did you do on your TC for seat belts - where did you anchor them and are they staic or inertia reel , two or three point fixings??
David Mullen

I've been thinking about rear seatbelts, too (I shudder at the thought of my brats damaging the precious original ashtrays with their hard foreheads or sharp teeth!!) but are not sure about the merits of two point lapbelts and doubt if three point fixing can be secured properly to withstand the great forces in a real collision. So up until now I have to transport my younger son illegally until he grows above 1.30m.
Willem van der Veer

There is a firm in the UK that fits seat belts to pre war type cars . I phoned them and they say they have done it for a number of old cars. I must phone again for more details but they are quite a way from where I live.

http://www.auto-safe.co.uk/
David Mullen

David, my belts are two point, and are unfortunately fitted to the frame. I installed them before learning of the potential for body shift.

The frame is a far more solid place to mount them than old plywood, so I'm investigating a way to secure the seats to the frame rather than move the belt mounting points.

When I put belts in our TC, it was mainly to hold us in on rough roads. The TC has a stiff suspension and on large bumps it sometimes feels like you will get bucked right out over those low cut doors!
Steve Simmons

The Y type is capable of 1g decceleration under braking. If the driver does need to emergancy stop the front passenger may not have time to brace, and the classic dash board is no place to bury their head. Any restraint is better than none. A good floor fixing is to the cross member brackets below the rear seats. In the case of a severe collision forget it, since the body will detach from the chassis - I need not go into details.
Bryan Mellem

I am not sure the body would detatch in a severe collision - it might move a bit but not that much surely given the eight bolts. Incidentally, my car failed its MOT last time on corrosion to the sills of the body because it was 'within 30 cm of a mounting point' and I had to have it welded even though the sills are not 'structural'. The reason must be that the body chassis bolt areas must be sound and the MOT now picks that up?. If the sills are sound could a seat belt mounting not go there?

David Mullen

David, while I don't want to cross swords with you, it should be realised that we drive very vulnerable cars. I started my driving in the early 50s and in those days high speed accidents were virtually non survivable. As an illustration just think about that long steering column and the effect of a front end impact, and yes it often happened. I don't think that we can do much to minimise the effects of a severe accident other than to remain strapped inside the car. My point is that if passengars are taken unawares when the driver has to emergency stop, there is a chance they will get hurt. Drum brakes are equally as good as disks at lower speeds and I would expect a Y type to stop at 1g which is a sudden load for the arms to resist. [ I fitted belts to my YA in the early 60s ]
Bryan Mellem

Bryan, I fully agree with you. Just for interest where did you put your mounting points on the YA because I am determined to put belts in ..at least in the back for now as we do use the car for trips out in good weather.
David Mullen

Seat belts are just one part of a safety system in modern cars. The structure is designed to collapse progressively on impact, as is the steering column; the glass is laminated so as not to cause injury; in an impact the fuel system cuts the supply to reduce fire risk - and so on and on. Then there's the ABS, EBD, traction control, etc etc, which are all designed to reduce the chances of dangerous situations occurring in the first place.

None of these are available to those of us driving cars designed on Edwardian principles in 1938. To take one example, a beam chassis like the Y's will not collapse progressively - it will stop dead, and the very high rate of deceleration involved will break ribs, cause severe whiplash and damage organs if a passenger in such a car is belted in. Of course, if not belted in, there may well be other impact injuries. There are clearly major risks either way.

I can understand that Bryan likes his belts, but the benefits arise from placebo effect - they're not a free(ish) ticket to a safe car. If we want modern standards of safety, the answer, I fear, is to buy a modern car.
Tim Griggs

Of course we have to accept that safety was not really considered when the Y was designed but seat belts would help and I am convinced that they could be attached to the body particularly in the back if strengthening plates are used - some years ago (early 80s) a chap near Crewekern in Somerset showed me his sun bronze YA (MG B engine) where he had fitted a modified steering column with universal joints (he said it was easily fitted). He was concerned over the solid steering column and he said the UJ would snap on impact saving the column being forced backwards. He was also intent on seat belts at the time but sadly I lost touch ages ago. The best thing is to do what you can in terms of safety but always drive in anticipation and not too fast and avoid motorways where possible. I always plan journeys carefully to select the best time and route etc. I have even put a small reflective triangle on the back when on fast routes!
All this must explain why I ended up in a government Health and Safety job!! Anyone fitting belts please post to this thread so we can compare notes.
David Mullen

It is well documented that in a car of any vintage, seat belts help reduce the risk of death in a collision. Unbelted occupants are thrust against oddly-shaped surfaces of wood, metal and glass at violent force. You may be injured by a seat belt from a sudden impact, but it will be far less dangerous than anything else on the car impacting your body at the same rate. Seat belts save lives, period.

I still don't have belts in my YB but I do think about it from time to time and may eventually install them. If I do, they will be the "hook" type so they can be easily removed without tools.

Tim, if you're really worried about injury from the belt itself in a high-speed collision, you can always mount them to the wood floorboard so they will protect you from leaving your seat in a slow speed accident, but tear out in a major incident. you will then be free to flail around the car like a life-sized pinball game. ;)

One thing no one has addressed in this thread is the reason many racers started using belts in the first place. You have better control of the vehicle with a belt tightly placed around your waist.
Steve Simmons

David. Sorry that I responded rather testy, but I once had a small child in the back, hit the front seat when I had to brake suddenly in my Y type, fortunatly without lasting injury. It was a lesson too me.
I can while my YA is in for its 300 thousand mile service take some pictures of the anchor points and email them to you. I hasten to add that they will not comply with current safety regulations.
Bryan Mellem

Bryan, I understand only too well your concerns and I would be most grateful for pictures of your mounting points if only to give me ideas of what has beeen tried. I do intend to take advice on this from a company that actually fits belts to classics. I will probably fit rear belts first so that any passenger is belted up. Congratulations by the way on 300K in the Y type. Obviously you can't make the Y as safe as a modern car but you can try and minimise the risk. Safe driving and intelligent anticipation are also musts when driving any car.
David Mullen

This thread was discussed between 18/07/2007 and 02/08/2007

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