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MG MG Y Type - YA Dashboard Veneer

Can anyone tell me what type of wood was used to veneer that part of the dash which carries the instrument panel and glove box lid (which are rosewood, I believe)
Thanks

TonyK
A B Knowles

Hi Tony

Book matched Walnut - also used on the window cappings and side frames of the windshield.

If you want to DIY it - check out the Hints and Tips page, there is a link there to an article written by David Hague on veneering.

PAul
Paul Barrow

Ooops - my apologies Tony! Knew it was somewhere - it was actually in the Reprinted Articles, so I have also added a link to David Hague's piece on veneering now to the Hints and Tips page too!

Paul
Paul Barrow

Forgot to add, if you check out the Colour Schemes page under Technical Centre, you will find details there of the original wood too ... but not how to do it.

Paul
Paul Barrow

I am in the same situation having constructed a new dash from aircraft quality beech ply and now need to veneer it. I was told the veneer is expensive burr walnut which is a bit tricky to apply and even more difficult to french polish. It seems two pieces meet in the centre and need to mirror the grain either side. So in my case I think a professional touch is needed unless I can get some instruction.

As a footnote the dash I made up is of two thin [6mm]panels glued back to back so any warping is cancelled out by the opposite panel, also the routing on the back face for the instruments to sit snuggly in can be cut out simply on the rear panel before the two panels are joined. It all takes time though!
B Mellem

Brian

Hope you never have a short on the wiring ... or an over heat. If you do it could smoulder nicely inside the wood there and the first you would know would be that you didnt need a heater any more! Personally I wouldn't recommend that. Also you would have to make sure you wired through with a new harness ... even then a fault is not ruled out.

Hopefully all the instructions one would need on the veneering are in David's notes. I have never done it ... but they seem comprehensive enough.

Paul
Paul Barrow

Sorry Paul I have missed your point. On the instrument sub dash panel the switch fixing nuts and instruments are recessed into the wooden panel so that the mounting plate fits flush behind, also the instrument bezal tangs are not long enough to reach right through the full thickness of the panel. As for fires I would have thought that all wiring looms should be replaced by now. When I first inspected the wiring on my ex Californian TF one tap and a shower of insulation fell off. I do like fuses! One point is that if the wooden dash catches fire at least it won't drip molten burning plastic on ones lap.
B Mellem

That conjusres up the smell of Christmas in Central Park-'Chestnuts roasting by an open fire'
S.R. Barrow

Thanks Paul, Brian
Yes, the instrument panel & glovebox lid are veneered in wallnut (why I put 'rosewood', I don't know!), but it is the long panel going across the whole width of the car, holding these and fixed by two large chrome plated screws at each end to which I refer. This is of half inch ply, veneered with a much lighter, longer open grained wood. I think it may well be beech (www selectveneers.com shows lots of samples.)
This piece has completely delaminated and broken away at its RH end and at the 'loop' over the steering column, hence its necessary replacement.
Tony
A B Knowles

Tony

Please look at the Woodwork section of the Colour Schemes in the Technical Centre at www.mgytypes.org.

It says quite clearly there "Dash Y and YB. Natural finish Plywood but with walnut veneer on glovebox lid and instrument panel surround which are book matched one to the other." in other words the main panel was not veneered.

Some owners have "modified" and "upgraded" their dash borads to walnut veneer ... but this is not correct to standard stock.

Does this clarify the situation for you?

Paul
Paul Barrow

Hi Paul,
I did look at 'Woodwork' when you first suggested it & thought 'Well mine's not like that, it's definitely veneered with a very light coloured wood 'cos its delaminted so I can actually see it - and on both sides too'
So I have just had a look at a scrap of contemporary ply, nothing special, the sort builders use - & would you believe it, that's just the same! - it has very thin <<1mm finishing "veneers"!! on both sides.
(A bit slow these days I know, but I get there in the end!)
One final thought - UK ply now is often a sort of pinkish colour. Apart from any other considerations, I dont think it would be a very good match with the wallnut!
TonyK
A B Knowles

What do you make of this picture from a 1948 owners handbook?

B Mellem

Tony

If you want an easy solution then I have a friend, an ex-YA owner in the Netherlands restored a dashboard using walnut veneer from Italy. He no longer has the car but still has the dashboard, which was never fitted,which I am sure he would be prepared to sell.

If you are interested please e-mail me and I will put you in touch with him.

Regards.

David
prman@mgytypes.org
David Pelham

What is the correct thickness in inches of the new veneer?
Thanks,
Scott
S.R. Barrow

Hi Brian

You raise a very interesting point, however, it is well known that the "photographs used in the handbook were not taken from production cars. Firstly, since they hadnt produced any before the first printing - how could they have photographed them? In the days of such low production they did not have the luxury of having a couple of months' inventory on hand before they printed the book. Secondly, the famous MG pedal rubbers were never available. The third proof that this is not a production car is the key. Y Types had two keys - one for the ignition and doors, one for the boot/trunk lock (or that might have been one for the ignition, one for the boot/trunk lock and doors, I cant remember which way round it was).

The same lack of "reality" can be found on page 58 of the handbook with the photograph of the cut away carburettor and the fact that the jet lever turns upward ... but in actuality, the lever is downward. Although many of the other component pictures are from "real" parts.

The fact that the main board was also in ply is stated in David Lawerence's book "Let there be Ys" I beleive.

Regards

Paul
Paul Barrow

Thanks for all those comments gentlemen.
I'd put money on the H'book picture being a drawing rather than a photo - with lots of artistic licence!

To answer Scott's query, I'll call this 'ply outer skin' rather than 'veneer' as I seem to have caused a bit of confusion before.
The ply outer skins on the original YA dash are
1/32 inch and on currently produced UK ply, 1/64 inch.
These are approx measurements. Although taken with a micrometer I get slightly different readings from place to place (as one would expect for wood!) & I have got these figures as nearest by converting from the metric. They are very close actually.

The outer skins on current UK ply look quite different from those used 60 years ago. Now they are usually pinkish/red in colour and extremely close grained - unsuitable I think as straight replacement.

I will email David

TonyK
A B Knowles

I am not convinced that MG would have skimped on a bit of veneer leaving a surface of rubbish beech on a car that in modern money cost some £40,000. When I purchased my YA in 1960 the dash was of the same texture overall. As for the keys, the same MRN.. fitted all the locks on my car. So we are left with the supposition that along the 60 year history that modifications and adaptions were carried out. Although I purchased my car 11 years after manufacture it must have been as near to original as possible except for the MOWOG exchange engine.
B Mellem

Each to their own Brian - I merely am quoting to you what is the best known facts concerning the matter as provided in Let there be Ys and other sources of repute. I accept that perhaps there may only have been one key though. What one also has to bear in mind is that the car was the first "new" (as opposed to warmed over TBs) car for MG under strict rationing - cost cutting and control would have been very much the order of the day even if perhaps the original intent had been to provide a full veneered dash.

Another example though of skimping is the fact that the handbook clearly shows a heat shield fitted to the carburettor on page 59, however no such part was ever made for production vehicles.

The handbook therefore is perhaps not quite as reliable a source of information as one might hope. FOr the record, I have a wide selection of different editions of the handbook here - the earliest being one of the first edition print runs of 1947. Fortunately in those days there was also no "Trades Description" legislation though either!

Paul Barrow

I've really set the cat amongst the pigeons here, havn't I?!!
Didn't mean to, honest.
Brian's assumption is right. With all the different comments, I seem to have taken my eye off the ball:-
That transverse piece holding the Instrument Panel & Glovebox Lid IS veneered; On my car it is anyway.
When I find out what wood it is, I'll post it.
And:- one key fits all.

Looking at that 1948 h'book drawing again, an all walnut dash would have looked a bit too much. By making the surround from a lighter coloured wood they got it just about right, I think.

TonyK
A B Knowles

A couple of years ago Peter Arnell & I had a good look at the first YB which is now in Kent owned by Mr Vickers. We took a few photo's, one of which shows the instrument panel/dashboard. One picture shows a panel which outside of the glove box lid and instrument panel looks veneered. But as someone has said it may be a good standard top surface to the ply just about equal to the veneer. The picture can be seen on the Y Register website under "The first YB" or I think "Interesting Y's".
T Gardner

Ted is 100% right, this picture shows a nicely finished piece of ply, albeit stained to a walnut finish, then laquored. This would have been the standard finish as it left the factory ... in my humble opinion at least.

Paul Barrow

Another shot is also shown

Paul Barrow

I think that the photos of the first YB are misleading and believe the dash shown does not conform to the original. Where is the 'burr walnut' veneer on the two panels? The burr walnut is clear to see on the windscreen rail and is nothing like that on the instrument panel and the glovebox, as it should be.
My original dashboard had burr walnut panels as everyone has so far agreed and the remainder was certainly veneered in a lighter coloured wood, just as Brian and Tony have suggested This wasn't a simple surface finish it was definitely a veneer and I well remember peeling and sanding it off before beginning the dashboard restoration. At the time when I was restoring my car I too was unable to find out the identity of this veneer and consequently covered the whole surface in burr walnut.

Jack
J.L. Murray

I think the plain part is veneered, when I redid my definitely original dashboard (see link below) someone mentioned mahogany as the posible wood used for that veneer. On Magnettes the same combination of mahogany and walnut is used?

http://home.wanadoo.nl/vdveery5888/dashboardy5888.html
W. van der Veer

nice link with 'veneer descriptions'

http://www.bosendorferlasvegas.com/build-your-own-piano/
W. van der Veer

I am resurrecting this old chestnut because currently on eBay there is a dash that was take from an early YA and this I believe answers the question totally as this car was a University Motors car.

I am attaching a picture.

As can be seen, although water damaged at the right hand end, the overall effect of the lighter colored ply against the walnut veneer juxtaposesses really well.

Still, it is up to each owner to make their own call. I personally think David Lawrence is 100% correct as his research supports my own findings too.

Whatever you do though - enjoy driving your Y - that is the most important thing!

Paul

Paul Barrow

I too believe the image previously shown clears up the question of dashboard finish and positively shows that two veneers were used.

The water damage on the right hand side shows that the surface veneer has gone, exposing the rough grained plywood that the dash is made from.

This area bears no resemblance to the rest of the outer dash panel which, to my mind, is close grained, of a lighter colour and is a veneer.

Jack
J.L. Murray

Can anyone suggest a supplier of bur walnut [in UK]. So far what I have seen on offer were examples of a rather coarse pattern unsuitable for the small dashboard area. Bryan
B Mellem

I goggled Burr Walnut Veneer and came up with several but http://www.woodveneeruk.co.uk/ looks very promising.

Paul
Paul Barrow

I should read the Safety Fast, since in this month's edition page 41 what do I find but an article on veneering! Those Triple-M boys have got it all sorted.

B Mellem

I got my veneers from Reif & Son Ltd, Atlantic Street, Altrincham WA14 5DD. Tel 0161 927 9192 They are local to me - I don't think they do mail order as they seem to be more wholesale than retail. However, visit them, show them what you want and they are more than happy to make suggestions & help you choose from their stock.
I started this chain trying to establish the nature of the veneer on that part of the dash carrying the walnut intrument panel & glove box lid. I am fairly certain now that it is Mahogany. However there are many different types and after 60 years or so what type was used is anyone's guess.
Members of the Originality Police should read no further.
So, after some discussion with Reifs, I chose to reveneer this piece with American Red Oak. After finishing with a laquer spray, this is coming up somewhat lighter than the weathered original, but is proving to be an excellent foil to the walnut panels.

As it is a long way from S. Glamorgan to Altrincham, if Bryan would like to email me, I may be able to help him with the Burr Walnut.

TonyK
A B Knowles

I thought keen observers might be interested in a couple of "findings" when cleaning up what I firmly believe is my original (Y3348) dashboard.
(1) the fabricator's inscription 2007 appears on the back of the main dashboard ply base, as well as on the rear of the instrument panel ply. The writing is exactly the same style as the "Jones" and 3007 which appears on the underside of several pieces of door trim.
(2) It is very obvious that the apparently original dash main panel was veneered using the same bookmatched veneer as was used on the glovebox lid and the instrument panel. I hope the attached photo shows this adequately. This sets me a challenge - I am very reluctant to discard pieces that formed part of the car when it was built nearly 70 years ago; so I need to work out how to excise the damaged portions of main dash, and "let in" sections of replacement veneer, to complete the dash while retaining as much as possible of the original veneered finish. This would enable me to salvage and re-use the patinated but still attractive veneer on the glovebox lid and instrument panel.
I hope this is of interest. Regards, John

J P Hall

Sorry - the fabricator's inscription (in black crayon and sometimes also in pencil) is 2870 on the dash pieces. John.
J P Hall

In 2009 you couldn't attach pictures and the link in my post is to a site that closed long ago.

I'm in no doubt that the main board is veneered in straight grain walnut.
On the attached picture the veneer layer is clearly visible and noticeably thinner than the other layers.

The 2009 pictures of the dashboard can't be of an original dashboard. If you compare the finish of the dashboard with the nicely patina-ed window rail, to me it is obvious that it was redone.

Willem van der Veer

this was the finished result

Willem van der Veer

and the complete picture in which the colour differences of the main and small panels is shown.

The dashboard shown by John Hall differs so much to all original straight grained panels I've seen so far, that I wouldn't be surprised if it had been refinished in it's early life.
Remember that a good leakage in heavy rain could spoil the dashboard of a 10 year old car easily.

Willem van der Veer

Thank you Willem. When I look closely at my dash, I can see no evidence of previous repair, though as you say I don't know the early history. So I wonder whether either -
(1) some cars had the entire dashboard bookmatch-veneered (like mine) to full width, at manufacture; while others had the plainer veneer to the main dash and the (walnut) burr veneer only on the inserts? or
(2) Australian-delivered cars maybe had a different dash treatment at delivery here? Just a thought.
Yours, John.
J P Hall

Hi John,

It's a real shame that your dashboard is damaged like that. In full glory it must have looked magnificent!

Just for the sake of going into the minutest details, would it be at all possible for you to take some very closeup pictures of the veneer edges of your dashboard?
Preferably a damaged section like the my picture where the veneer is peeling. Maybe in a real "CSI" fashion we can find out more about how it came into existence?

Also, do you have (closeup) pictures of the finish on the window rail out off the same car? All original dashboards I've seen so far had the same veneer on the rail face as on the glovebox- and instrumentpanels.

As Paul says, it is up to each owner to make their own call. But, dare I say it, I personally think David Lawrence is 99% correct and should investigate further on the dashboard finish? (and just maybe then there's the very remote possibility that we can lure Paul into the veneer camp, too! :-) )

Back to Paul: Whatever you do though - enjoy driving your Y - that is the most important thing!

Willem van der Veer

Thanks for following up, Willem. I will be more than happy to try to add to the dossier of dashboard knowledge, as it's a fascinating subject.It will be no problem to load up a couple of photos - probably after work today. The dash support plywood was so delaminated that I actually have the entire dash veneer (minus the missing sections unfortunately), detached from the rest but still stuck to its original layer of ply.
As to the window rail: it is a lovely solid lump of teak, originally veneered in the same style as the dash - bookmatched of course. Sadly, I had already removed the veneer on one half before I gave proper thought to the possibility of a salvage operation, so whatever I do with the dashboard I'll probably leave the window rail as a nicely grained piece of lacquered teak. I'll try to attach a photo of the veneer on the rail, for interest.
I confess to still suspecting that SOME Y Types were given the bookmatched walnut veneer treatment across the entire dashboard.
Yours, John.

J P Hall

Out of my comfort zone here: there should follow a couple of photos of dash veneer alongside window rail veneer - not apparently matched for pattern. John.

J P Hall

Out of my comfort zone here: there should follow a couple of photos of dash veneer alongside window rail veneer - not apparently matched for pattern. John.

Next photo shows the rhs of the rail, veneer removed and showing the clever use of grain to follow the shape of the rail.

Final photo is more of the same.

J P Hall

Last one - left-hand end of window rail, where veneer remains.

J P Hall

Hi John
I share your view that some Y's had a full book matched veneer
I have attached a pic of 3117's dash which I believe original






R J Snell

Another pic

R J Snell

Speaking to my dashboard craftsman today, he advises the veneer to look for is Walnut - you can use British, American or Australian Walnut, they are all similar in pattern & colour.

He also advises that the "panels" should be burr or burl finish veneer, while the main panel is normal grained veneer.

The burr or burl veneer (depending on which part of the world or person you talk to) is harvested from those lumpy growths (the burl) on the side of tree trunks, while the normal grain veneer comes from the main tree trunk.

Not every tree will develop a burl.

There can be a lot of wastage in harvesting burr/burl, and that's why it is so expensive and only used in "feature panels".

On a similar subject - Does anyone have any "spare" chrome surrounds for the glove box or instrument panel on a YA/YB ?. The craftsman is building a new dash panel as a special prize/award for the 70th Anniversary Rally in 2017, and we are short one set of chrome strips.

Thanks in advance,

Tony Slattery
Black Mountain
Australia
A L SLATTERY

Hi Tony
I have a spare chrome glovebox surround but not the chrome piece from below glovebox door yours if it helps.
The dash surround is from y0974 a car last registered in 1968
and has a plain veneered dash surround not burr.
Cheers Rob



R J Snell

Great photo Rob, certainly looks as though like 3448, your 3117 had the full bookmatched dashboard. Where in Qld are you? - I'm up in Atherton, near Cairns. John.
J P Hall

Rob

Can you drop me a note about the status of Y/0974 off line please?

Thanks

Paul
Paul Barrow

Hi Rob & John.

Great pictures both. The veneer on John rail is very much like the dashboard and supports the original look, especially with the dashboard of Rob, that is very nice, too.

I wonder if the bookmatched main panel is typical to Australian Y's?

To All,

Can we have more dashboard pictures please?

Willem
Willem van der Veer

Hello all, here are some photos of my Dash. My Y2866 is an original un-restored vehicle with known history and I will stick my neck out and say that I believe my dash is totally original other than a small repair adjacent to the lower screw on the left hand side of the dash. The veneer had lifted and broke away. The veneer was no more than 1mm thick and possibly less than 1mm. A slither of wood (about 25mm tall) was glued in to replace the missing piece.
Al veneer in the car (dash, instrument panel, dash top rail and window sills) is book matched Wallnut veneer. There is however a slight difference in appearance with the dash rail being the most attractive closely followed by the window sills and then the Dash panel.
The veneer used on the glove compartment is the piece that was cut from the dash panel as was the veneer on the instrument panel that was also cut from that half of the dash panel.
The book matching is most obvious when you compare the pattern of the lower left corner to the lower right corner of the dash panel.
My car Y2866 and Y2868 and Y2870 are all survivors and are on Y's on parade. All three cars originate from South Australia and I would guess that they arrived together on the same Ship. It would be most interesting if these three cars could be compared.

T J Ciantar

Picture 2

T J Ciantar

picture 3

T J Ciantar

picture 4

T J Ciantar

an other pic

T J Ciantar

And another

T J Ciantar

and one more

T J Ciantar

Last pic.

T J Ciantar

And just for the record I will include some pictures of the window sills.

T J Ciantar

Another Pic

T J Ciantar

And another,

T J Ciantar

And a last one.

T J Ciantar

Hi John ,
I am in Ipswich QLD
I am pretty sure I may have recored your y radiator a while ago.

Cheers Rob
R J Snell

This is turning into a marathon post !! As can be seen on the photo my top rail is book matched veneer but I suspect that the dash has been re-veneered at some time with one piece as the glove box and panel grain match. Based on no evidence whatsoever could it be that availability of materials post war meant that there was no definitive original method of finish. I will also post a photo of a door rail showing the walnut that I didn't know was there due to opaque varnish. Not wanting a high gloss finish I carried out my first French polishing since grammar school in 1963.

J Foster

Second photo

J Foster

To Terry: good to hear from you! - great photos, adding to a very interesting topic. I'm agonising over whether to try to salvage undamaged veneer on doors as well as dashboard, and I really like the finish on your doors. I'll update this thread with any decisions and attempts I make.
Rob - yes, quite right, sorry I forgot that.
J Foster (John?) - I too boarded at a grammar school in Bury St Edmunds in '65/66, so I hear you brother.
Regards, John.
J P Hall

Yes John, it is John (forgot to sign it) If the veneer is undamaged then go for it. Whatever finish you decide on it just needs patience and a lot of work with very fine wire wool. It was just as well I did French Polishing in the first year at grammar school as they made me drop woodwork and do Latin after that.
J Foster

Terry, further to your comment on the 15th: like your photos, 3348 is definitely one sheet of veneer used on the entire dash - bookmatched at the centre and with the glovebox and instrument inserts then automatically mirroring each other. A very pleasing finish. The window rail was veneered in a similar but not identical looking pattern, suggesting that the veneer for the rail perhaps came from further along the same sheet?
The veneer on the door trims, which has more "wear and tear" but which I still favour salvaging, looks like more of the same original sheet (which would make sense), again bookmatched. I'll try to clean one up today and post a photo.
BTW, my woodworking mate told me to use paint stripper to remove old varnish; stainless steel scrubbing wads to clean off; no water to finish, only methylated spirits so that no harm is done to the old veneer or base wood. I was alarmed, but it works a treat! Yours, John.
Back to bed now (4am) - I only got up to check the England/India cricket score. Regards, John.
J P Hall

John, I think what is obvious from this thread is that no two vehicles were absolutely identical. Just as each piece of timber is unique so are our cars. Just as J Foster said in his post the availability of timber post war would have dictated what was used. Sales brochures for the Y type state that all cabinetry was walnut but then no two pieces of walnut look the same with the exception of book matched pieces.
I remember when I attended the 60th Anniversary meet and seeing 23 saloons in attendance there was a huge variety in the dash panels. It is this uniqueness that makes our cars interesting. What is original on my car may look completely different to what is original on an other car.
As has been stated earlier on this thread, what is important is that we enjoy and use them and maintain them to the best of our ability.
John, will you be attending the 70th Anniversary Meet at the Sunshine Coast. Would be great to catch up with you there.
Regards
Terry
T J Ciantar

A very experienced restorer in Melbourne, Neil Wakeman, kindly prepared a new plywood dash support for me. His Y Type restoration has been written up, and is of the highest order. Neil points out that I'll need two veneer sheets to create the "mirror image" bookmatch effect, with one sheet being inverted. Sorry I overlooked that in my 17/12 comment.

Terry, I'm firmly booked in for the Y 70 gathering; it will certainly be good to catch up and also to meet people like Tony Slattery. See you there! Regards, John.
J P Hall

This thread was discussed between 26/07/2009 and 19/12/2016

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