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MG ZR ZS ZT Technical - MG ZT 'Our Car' Autocar 2 Jan 2002

Had a look at AUTOCAR today. Jan 2002 issue. Lots of pictures and items on various exotica but two things really caught my eye:

1) The tasteful two page spread MG ZT-T advertisement inside the front cover. The car depicted was in that attractive green. Forgot most of the words even though so few but the "Life is too short not to" I thought was a clever touch.

2) On about page 70 there was a two page "Our Car" item where one of the journalists has acquired a blue ZT190. Apart from one minor negative comment, the whole item was full of praise for the car. The most favourable appraisal I've so far seen of any z-car since they first appeared and there's been some very good ones. Oh yes, that negative comment, IIRC something about the lack of torque below 3000 rpm. Anyone found this to be so with their ZT?
John McFeely

Autocar ran a long term 620ti back in 1994 and had nothing but praise for the car,despite the fact that the engine blew up at 6000 miles!,which was blamed on drastic over revving early in its life.They also found its 30-70 mph acceleration faster than a Sapphire Cosworth at 6.1 secs!.Their sum up of the 620ti read:"it is refined yet has a raw appeal that a silky V6 cannot match",will be interesting to see how the ZT compares.IMHO the 620ti was Rovers best fast saloon car ever and is faster than any Z car,which is probably why Rover are looking at Turbocharging future cars.
Kevin Davis

I recall AutoExcuse testing a 620ti against a 328 B*W and the end result was...........the 620 was built better, went faster, more economical, handled better and was on the whole a better car, but the B*W won because of the badge....(well, what do you expect from a Kraut magazine!). It's probably why B*W ditched the Accord-based range......(BTW, the Rover 620 and Honda Accord are NOT the same car...you try swapping body panels!)
Yorkie

I have all the road tests for the 620ti,including the one you mention above,and yes,despite the 600 being better in every department they could not bring themselves to put the Rover first.The only road test i have seen where the ti actually wins is CAR magazine when the ti beat the 328i,Saab 900 Turbo,Mondeo V6 and Renault Laguna V6.They said out of all the above cars the 620ti is the one they could live with every day.Respect!.
Kevin Davis

IMHO, if ever a sporting saloon merited the MG legend on its bonnet it was the Rover 620ti. It had all the qualifications. Political decision not to do so I believe. I do agree about the Accord-Rover 600 comparison. The Accord styling looks aimed at the US market but the Rover 600 is definitely understated european; 600ti - An exceptional "ordinary" car. I particularly like the way some owners describe the performance of their Rover 600/620ti in advertisements when the time comes to sell .... v. amusing! ... :-)

That Rover/ARG T16 engine (no Honda content!) has to be one of the most underestimated power plants ever fitted to a car. No wonder the MG Maestro and Montego enthusiasts like to slide one in their understated cars - enormous appeal with the added advantage of being a relatively straightforward transplant .... lotsa :-))))
John McFeely

GO on JOHN!
I know you can do it, we love to see results. I keep thinking "What if". If BMW had not of Mugged Honda for Rover? What could have now been? I can't help but wonder........any ideas?
Mega

Anybody remember back when Frankie Goes To Hollywood were top of the charts? I'm sure their record company was called something like Zang Tumb Tumb.

I think about and chuckle every time I see mention of the ZT-T.

Mike.
Mike Watkins

<<It's probably why B*W ditched the Accord-based range......(BTW, the Rover 620 and Honda Accord are NOT the same car...you try swapping body panels!)>>

B** ditched the 600 for the sole reason that it was starting to sell quite well, 'cos it was well built, performed well, looked better than the opposition, and to their horror, they found it was eating into the sales of the 3-series. Neutering comment of leaving a chasm in the line up, they pointed to the 75 straddling the gap left by the 600 and 800, which was in a slot twixt the 3 and the 5 so it wouldnt affect the Munich figures.
Then they axed the 100, (and that alone accounted for some 30% of sales) without replacement in the sub-B sector, moaned about falling sales, mounting losses, and the rest, as they say, is history!
Dave

A real shame then that used 620ti's seem to languish on dealers forecourts for weeks on end,a local Rover dealer has a 1998 S ti in nightfire red for £5995 which they've had now for 4 months!!.People seem to ignore them,if only they actually got in the thing and drove it they would be writing the cheque 100 yards up the road!and forgetting the overestimated and overpriced 328i.
Kevin Davis

I know only too well the benefits of the T16 Turbo engine and how easily you fit them into Maestro and Montego. The transplant doesn't doesn't affect the superb reliability, even though when transplanted and with no actual modification to the engine or it's managment system the norm was to see 15% more power then when the engine was sitting in the donor Rover. This due to alterations, which could be regarded as modifications, to the exhaust and induction systems when you fit the lump into the Maestro/Monty chassis.

Interestingly the Maestro/Monty weighs about the same as the R 200/400 and about 300kgs less than a 620Ti and 800 Vitesse. The latter two had good traction for the power and did not suffer anything like the 200/400 did for torque steer. (Talk about a hedge hunter when in standard form) The Maestro and Monty with a lowered suspension offerred a level of stability very similar to the heavier pair, yet accelerated better due to the weight advantage. The acceleration of a M/M with the 620Ti box and Torsen was always somewhat sharp. Just look at some of the elapsed times at the Pod where M/M cars are often beating some of the quickest Cosworth powered machines. Shows how much potential there was and what could have been for these.

In respect of the KV6 torque delivery, I can confirm that low to mid range torque is not one of this engines strong points and if anyone cares to read the Autocar road test of the 45 Stepspoeed they make a big point relating to the lack of torque for the 2 litre V6. In 2.5 litre form the issue remains, although much less obvious. The ZT190 shows this most by carrying most weight and having a peakier engine. The 160 is normally the power level of a 2 to 2.2 litre engine, but by using the 2.5 there is a less obvious step in torque delivery with this model.

Rog
Roger Parker

Kevin,

It's not only the 600ti that's not selling. I've been keeping a watch on many dealer used car lots or forecourts in my area for the past few months. There's a huge glut of fairly recent used cars everywhere and very few of any description are selling well if at all. Lots of recent BMWs, Fords you name it! A spotless Rover 600ti @ £2995 caught my eye locally and I asked if £2500 was of interest three months ago. Despite no part exchange, best they could do was a measly £2795. Pathetic! That car is still in the same spot there today along with most of the other models alongside back then.

On reflection now I'm glad they did not accept my offer. Because of this used car glut, many dealers will be forced to clear "stickly" winter stock via the auctions and many cars like that which have not sold will go at auction for half those dealer prices or less! I know this because I record Reg. Nos. and sometimes see the cars later at the auctions. Many thousands of unsold dealer part exs are disposed of through the auctions. If you're patient and selective, some real bargains can be had for just about any car which takes your fancy.
John McFeely

Interesting stuff Roger, particularly your partial confirmation of low speed torque limitations with the heavier ZT Rover 75 cars. Hence MG-Rover’s future plans for V8s of various specs. What puzzles me is how the now very popular Rover 75 with it’s relatively small 1.8 litre 4 cylinder engine performs in this respect. I‘m particularly interested for several reasons. I plan to get a ZT190 sometime and I’m a lover of lots of “low down torque”. This probably explains always liking the O series engine cars.

I don’t know the bore and stroke of the 2.5 KV6 but now I wonder if it’s square or oversquare which in my experience, means you have to keep the revs up and that often means limited low engine speed torque. Even in a high-performance car this can be tiresome, especially on longer journeys. Much food for thought there.
John McFeely

Why did Rover stop using the T16?,i know it was getting on a bit but if it aint broke.....I know the VVC is nearly as good but it just has'nt got the lugging power ot a turbocharged T16.
Kevin Davis

Kevin,

T16 discontinued: Why Indeed! Suggest BMW know the answer to that one .... unfortunately .. :-(
John McFeely

Yeah, I bet B** know why the T16 went.......though its a bit against some of thjeir advertising copy of a while back where they bleated on about 'Evolution, not Revolution'....'B'series to 'O'series to 'T16'...is that a good evolution or what!
Yorkie

I find the comments about the ZT190 against cars with the T16 turbo engine very interesting.

My 800 Vittesse does the 106 mile round trip from Warwick to Abingdon and back each day using the M40 and A34. I have been thinking about having a ZT190 next. (its my own money). However the with the Vittesse you get 25mph/1000rmp and the 190 spec is about 21/1000. When keeping up with the traffic this makes a difference. When the slow traffic moves over the wave of low down torque gives the option of rapid acceleration or dropping a gear and taking off.

Has anyone changed from a Vittesse to a ZT190 and how have they found it.

While I could weight for used ZT260s to be available the price step is going to be quite big.

David
David Witham

Knowing the Vitesse in both 180PS and 200PS versions, plus having driven a few ZT models I can say that the response of the Turbo T16 is very good and stonger in the sub 3000rpm area.

David I think you will find that your Vitesse gearing is somewhat lower than 25mph per 1000rpm in 5th. More like 22mph. Only the lighter 200, 400 models used the 25mph per 1000rpm. That actually puts the in gear acceleration of the ZT in a better light.

The motorway performance of the ZT is certainly more than sharp enough to attract the attentions of a silver BMW 535 with blue lights behind the kidney grilles, at least north of Jnct 12 (Gaydon)!!!

Rog
Roger Parker

Thanks for the info on the 535 Roger.

I am driving a 200ps version. The 25/1000 came from comparing the speedo and rev counter. One must over read more than the other! Does it explain why I havn't met the silver 535.

I will have to find a dealer who will lend me a ZT190 for the day.

David
David Witham

Roger, what, the B*W caught the ZT?????? Oooh Eeeerrrr!
Yorkie

This thread was discussed between 05/01/2002 and 08/01/2002

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