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MG MGA - Duty of Care

Hi Guys

Was wondering if the rest of the world is worried about duty of care when a group of MG fanatics go on a run together under the banner of a club?
We are, at present, sourcing a safety kit to give to Tail End Charlie in case of a breakdown when on club sanctioned runs to "show" that we care about the safety of our members. Apparantly, the legal implications if an accident should occure, are watered down if we can show "duty of care".

Any comments from club committee members, maybe?
Dave
David Godwin

David, I don't think it's a concern here in the U.S. because of the difference in our laws. Not to say that we don't care for our member's safety, it's just that I've never heard of any legal liability to assist in the event you witness an accident. Of course in our overly litigeous society, you're more likely to be sued if you help someone than if you don't.
As far as legal liability goes, most of us rely on individual insurance coverage which is mandatory in most states to cover us when we are driving on public roads. The only time we see a need for insurance for the club is during a "static" event such as a show or for a "driving event" off the road such as an autocross.
One thing we do is make sure some of the cars are equiped with a 2 way radio or cell phone and one of these cars is at least in the lead and bringing up the rear of the group so we can alert the group to any problems.
It is a good idea to have some sort of emergency kit available with both safety items as well as some basic medical first aid items in the car though.
Bill Young

Hi David, I don't think that you could be held responsible as a club for any accident on the public highway - Each driver is responsible for his own safety when driving and will be covered by his own insurance.Check local by-laws for driving in convoy - it is illegal for more than about 5 cars to drive in a convoy here - break your members into small groups. There would only be liability if you were on private grounds, or if you attempted to direct traffic yourself. I would advise all club members to carry their own first aid kit - care has to be taken if you administer first aid to someone who has been injured. We have had a lot of experience in looking at health and safety whilst organising our club shows over the last 8 years. cheers Cam
Cam Cunningham

I am surprised you said that Cam as I thought you were a committee member of a club. Anyone who organises an event in the UK whether that is stationery or motoring, can be held responsible and liable if they are negligent.
The MG Car Club for instance is a member of the RACMSA and as such are indemnified by them as long as they play by the rules. Those being that they must always get a permit to run the event from the RAC. This puts the cost of the event up a little but it protects the organisers from being personnally held liable.
I do know that there are a few motoring clubs in the UK who ignore this liability and do not explain to their officiers the risks they are taking when organising an event without protection.

I can not believe it is not the same in the USA Bill!
Bob (robert) Midget Turbo

Bob, I'm no lawyer, but it probably is the same here. Certainly with a show or autocross the organizers carry the liability insurance. We've never thought about the driving events just relied on the individual drivers insurance to cover them and their passengers. Definitely something I'll have to bring up with the club at our next meeting. I do know that as an affiliate club with the North American MGB Register we have insurance coverage through that body for club events, so we're probably covered bythat for our driving events as well as our shows.
Bill Young

It would probably be a good idea to have participants in any driving event sign a liability waiver. I've signed them for rallies before.

As a side note, anyone participating in a driving event should check with their classic insurance provider to see if they are covered while participating in that event. For instance Hagerty considers a "Funkhana" or a "Gymkhana" a race since it is predicated on finishing times. They won't cover your damages if they find out you wrecked your classic while racing it. At the least you'll have a hell of a fight on your hands.
Mark J Michalak

Advice from our national motoring body and our club insurance agent has led us to take out (additional) liability insurance for committee and club members when organising club events - even if it is just a drive to a park for a picnic. This covers us for legal action against us as individuals or the club as an entity should it become necessary. Our national insurance covers us at motor sport meetings specifically IF we rember to fill out the paperwork early enough.
My actual question relates to the safety of a member when broken down on the road - say, at night, raining, could not pull off the road due to a barrier, flat battery.......
The "proposed" kit includes safety triangles, flashing tourch, safety "glow" vest, basic medical kit as a minimum.
Additions being considered include a tow rope, basic tools.
Next problem is 1.) To get the Tail End Charlie to remember to bring the kit 2.) Everyone to have the Tail End Charlie's mobile number in their mobile phone.
Would be easier if everyone kept their own kit BUT what would happen if the above situation occured on a run you organised and the member was killed? Could the family sue you or the club for not excersising adequate duty of care?
Dave
David Godwin

I see what you mean David but I think you are doing to much.

As I have said the MGCC is indemnified by the RAC and as such runs events to their rules, which are accepted by the law authorities within the UK. Thus compliance with their rules ensures indemnity from legal prosecution and also from civil cases for damage or personal injury. I am sure your insurance would be the same and would need to know in detail how you intend to run your event.

However from a personal point of view it is also important to ensure that the chances of damage to entrant's vehicles and injury to themselves is "ALARP" so that we can enjoy everyones company and as you say "sleep at night"
Bob (robert) Midget Turbo

Hi Bob, Our club road runs do what Mark suggests - that is completing an indemnity waiver/disclaimer ( and participants are told that this NOT a race or time trial). Those following a suggested route do so at their own risk (they are in control of their vehicle at all times and must decide whether it is safe to proceed)- and all the routes are on public roads. I would be interested to know if (and how) this puts the onus of responsibility on to the club committee . I will have to find out what regulations the RAC have that indemnifies a club. We do take out insurance for the finish of the event at our show, which is private grounds.
David - I would not take on the responsibility of supplying breakdown kits either officially or unoffically as this could certainly leave you open to litigation if after an incident, something supplied was not considered adequate or appropriate . cheers Cam
Cam Cunningham

Cam I can not understand your reasoning. If you are correct and you get everyone to sign their lives away then why not do the same at your static shows on private grounds, save you buying insurance for those as well wouldn't it?
The reason why we need RACMSA Approval for all events is that they oversee ALL motoring events in Britain and as such clubs registered with them enjoy many benefits
I do not see the difference between an organised club event on private grounds and one that uses public roads, indeed if you were to organise an autotest on private grounds without a permit from the RACMSA then all competetors would be liable to prosecution for bad driving I believe.

However the proof of the pudding will always be that if someone enters your event and damages their vehicle on your suggested route could they sue you personally?
Bob (robert) Midget Turbo

Bob,

I think that buying insurance for static shows makes sense as it would seem impractical to get all participants and spectators to sign a liability waiver. If a bonnet comes crashing down on some kids hand (or head) due to say, wind, I would see a need for insurance.
Mark J Michalak

Reading all these comments, I'll suggest (at our next committee meeting) that we "advise" our members as to the level of insurance we hold (as a club) and the insurance we suggest they hold personally, so that we can all enjoy the clubs activities "as we except them to be enjoyed".
Thanks for the time..............
Dave
David Godwin

This thread was discussed between 28/12/2007 and 29/12/2007

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