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MG MGA - Emergency Brake

I have a '58 coupe in which the emergency brake wouldn't keep the car stopped. The handle and the lock release work fine, it just doesn't hold the car when engaged. I was told by the shop I took it to that the rear drums were too worn to adjust the brake any further. I bought new drums and had them installed.
Now I'm told that the brake holds good. But after driving the car a bit, the brake no longer holds.
They're not sure why.
Anyone have an idea why this would happen and what would fix it?

Thanks

Pat10

I wonder if you have what I had. After fitting new shoes, the rear brake adjuster went to the final “click” to adjust the shoes, meaning there would be no future adjustment possible. Maybe yours are even worse?
The drums measured correctly. I purchased new adjusters (mask and snail cam), not because the old ones were faulty, but because I wanted them nice and clean. As I fabricated some small shims to sit under (the now shiny clean) masks to allow the adjusters to make more of an impact on shoe adjustment. I secured the shims (about 4mm width) to the masks.
It seems to work well, as shoes adjusted correctly after just two clicks
Graham V

Of course Barney already has covered it - look at Vin Rafter's post here https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/brakes/bt102.htm
Graham V

Thanks for the response, Graham. According to the mechanic, by shoes were in really good shape but the drums had become too worn to adjust the emergency brake any further. After the new drums were installed, the shop said adjustment worked. But, after driving, it slips back out to where it doesn't hold again. ?
Haven't yet read the link you sent. I'll take a look at that.

Thanks again.
Pat10

Addendum:
My brakes, themselves, were working just fine. I have front disk brakes...rear drums. My only problem had been the 'non-holding' emergency brake.
Pat10

It's not certain, so you need to check, but you may have entered the world of piss-poor modern made parts. If you have one of these places nearby that relines brake shoes you could take the new and old shoes there and see which they might suggest they could improve on. Brake adjustment is very important to the brake pedal feel as well as operation of the handbrake.

It always amuses me that the handbrake is called the emergency brake out your way, in the UK if you ever needed to you use your handbrake as an emergency brake you've probably already pushed the margins of your lucky much more than you should have, and will necessarily get away with.
Nigel Atkins

Pat
If you haven't done so already, I would suggest you jack up the back of the car and had a good look at how well the foot brake is working, and what is happening when you apply the hand(emergency) brake.
That should give some clues
Graham V

Well, as far as the shoes are concerned, I didn't get new shoes. I was told the shoes looked very good and had plenty of "shoe". The problem was, with the 'hand' brake adjusted all the way out, the drums didn't have enough material left to grab. So...new drums. And, supposedly, the hand brake adjusts fine now with the new drums but then becomes "loose" (?) after driving. Go figure.

And, for "emergency" rather than "hand". Ha, you're absolutely right. I guess it comes from years of being used to having the ol' foot pedal for the emergency brake for all the other cars I've ever driven. Guess I should refer to it as "handbrake". And, yes, if it were an emergency, it would be tough to get to quickly enough.

Thanks for the response.
Pat10

Given the apparent good condition of the rear shoes, I wonder if the rear breaks were not working at all. Front brakes do 70-80% of the stopping and I wonder if perhaps on Pat's car the fronts weren't doing 100% of the stopping. If the new drums have a slightly larger diameter it's possible that the rears are not engaging with the drums at all. Jack up the car and have someone depress the pedal and see if you can still rotate the rear wheels. Just a WAG.

Jud
J K Chapin

Well, maybe. But, then, it doesn’t make sense that they get the hand brake to work and then it doesn’t hold anymore after the car is driven. But I’ll tell the shop on Monday and see what they say.

Thanks.
Pat10

Yes I agree with Jud. That what I was trying to say.
If the rear brakes work perfectly with the foot pedal, and not with handbrake, it must surely be the hand brake mechanism, ie cable etc.
So you first need to be absolutely certain the rear brakes work perfectly with the foot pedal.
It shouldn’t be difficult to track it down once you have the back jacked up.
Graham V

Nigel
I have been glad, on at least one occasion, for the "emergency brake" on my MGA.

Years ago when I was in my early 20s (in other words, young and foolish), I was making my way over the Woodhead pass in the Yorkshire Pennines to take an important examination at the University of Manchester (UMIST).

The Woodhead Pass is normally a fun ride in an MGA with lots of fast bends and hairpins, but my trip became a lot more exciting when one of the steel brake pipes cracked and I lost all braking on a steep, but fortunately straight section of road.

Fortunately, the handbrake was really good, I could lock up the rear brakes if I pulled the lever really hard and so I decided that I would carry on with the journey to see if if I could get to the university in time to take the exam.

I learned very quickly that this was going to be a real challenge in the rush-hour traffic of central Manchester. I had to anticipate the traffic lights changing and keep well behind the car in front, but after a few near misses, I made it without running into anything!

And I somehow got through the exam ok, even with the
worries of how I was going to get home, in the back of my mind.

When I exited the University in the early evening, the rush hour was long gone, the roads were very quiet and so I decided to risk the 55 mile journey home back over the Pennines in the dark.

Fortunately, the roads were really quiet, plus I knew the road really well, and so I used engine braking to slow the car down on the many downhill sections, only applying the handbrake when I had to.

Anyway, amazingly, I made it home without incident although it did take me about an hour longer than usual.

And I did pass the exam!

But would I do it again?

Definitely NOT!

Cheers
Colyn
Colyn Firth

I think I've had to use it in addition to the foot brake a few times but that'd be at lower speeds, really of course when at that stage the car shouldn't be used.

I think of emergency as a one-off use, engine braking is reusable, a real emergency with that would be slamming it into a stall.

Both rely on the tyres, particularly rear, to be in good condition and not hard through age and/or lack of use.

I've just remembered a handbrake occasion, going to university was unimaginable for my youth I was just messing about thinking I was being clever and showing off. During winter on a quiet country road in an old (fwd) banger (now called a 'classic' car) I decided as the roads were icing I'd do a long brake-slide of the car to a stop as close as I could to the give-way line. Panic set in as I learnt more about momentum as I pumped away on the bake pedal and pulled the handbrake with all my strength. The car slid across the crossroad and finally stopped about 10 foot into the other road. Luckily there where no vehicles on the road I slid across. Lesson learnt ... but only not to mess about with ice, stupidity is very long lasting. 🙄
Nigel Atkins

Jesus! Mary, Joseph and the wee donkey!
You guys are mad. I can just about understand Colyn driving to the exam, rather than waiting for a cab, but driving home?
Graham V

I wonder if they might have adjusted the handbrake up without adjusting the rear shoes first
Might be worth letting the handbrake cable off loose, adjusting the shoes up, and finally adjust the handbrake
William Revit

"J,M,J and the wee donkey" Graham?, have you been bingeing on Boxsets of the Line of Duty series? :^)

I did say that I was "young and foolish at the time", it was back in the early 70s when I was in my early 20s.
I was earning around £12.50 per week as a trainee optician and so I really couldn't afford the train/bus fare home.
My only other option was to walk / hitch-hike the 50 odd miles over the 1500 ft Woodhead Pass on a Winters night, which would have been a real challenge.

No I definitely would not do it again, but the main difference today is that I can now afford the train fare!

Now, whether I could bring myself to actually leave my MGA parked for a day or two in a Central Manchester Car Park, is another matter entirely!! :^)

Cheers
Colyn
Colyn Firth

We love our handbrakes downunder - fly off handbrakes are made for doing handbrake turns in motorkhanas. We add an extension handle, it extends up like a second gear stick (yes you need to make sure shoes and drums are machined to same diameter and adjuster scrolls are modified). If you’re really keen you can fit a hydraulic handbrake as a lot of Midget motorkhana guys favour.
Finding a good brake guy will solve your problems.
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

This lack of rear brake adjustment and the need for shims seems quite common. I had this problem with new shoes and still had it on fitting new drums. Personally I reckon the shoes today are fitted with some 'metric' thickness braking material, instead of an imperial thickness. The shoes appear to have a too small a radius and only start rubbing at the cylinder ends and am convinced tends to cause the leading shoe to bite.
Has anybody perhaps had success with a thicker braking material?
PeteT
PeteT

I relined my brakes myself to great effect a number of years ago. Kits are available on line. It guarantees having the correct shoes.

Steve
Steve Gyles



Thats intertesting, Steve,

Of recent times O/E brake shoes with bonded HARD HARD linings attached , have been the only usual parts available.
These very hard linings suit the pressure from modern vacc. brake boosted systems--especially cars fitted with front disc brakes.
So, are there softer linings on offer for non-boosted drum brake sustems to suit our cars? This interests me greatly.
Run of the mill linings are just too hard. The brake shops just do not want to know!
Accepting that modern hars have disc. brakes and the mechanical leverage at the rear wheels designed to exert more leverage onto the hard linings-
therefore making modern hand brake linings work better on newer models as compated to our older cars with less hand brake leverage onto the rear drums.

How about describing the colour of the linings you refer to--are these slightly red---or---grey grey hard material?
In their day, hand braking sustems worked very well, using the old softer woven linings [provided the rear hubs/brake drums ] were not running in diff. oil! These linings had a fair bit of asbestos in them.
The motor trade does not always cater the most suitable parts for our older cars, unfortunately.
I wonder who supplied the kit to you?

Cheers,
From down under.
I.W. Cowen.

Sorry, I'm afraid it's a bit too long ago to remember the exact details. At the time it was a standard drum braked 1500 with no servo assistance. I had previously done the same with my MGTC. I only did it myself for the experience and because my local village auto supplier had the parts in store. He also kept stuff like starter motor bendixes and bendix spring compressors. One of those old fashioned suppliers long since gone when the owner retired.

I had a browse on the internet and kits for various cars are still available. You can buy reels of the linings and rivets. You just need to be handy with the machining of the recessed holes. Some suppliers also supply the bonding glue if you want to go down that route.

Steve
Steve Gyles

If you have a local bus or transport company you could ask where they have their brake shoes done as the commercial market has always been bigger with those vehicles for obvious reasons.
Nigel Atkins

Thanks for the tip Steve. Can we assume your brakes adjust up as they should?
Next time you whip off a rear brake drum, do let us know how thick those shoes are - nearest to the pivoting end where there is no wear. Must check for any of these kits you mention.
PeteT
PeteT

PeteT,
I've just seen this - https://www.autoandindustrial.co.uk/
Nigel Atkins

Pat

Be good to hear how you got on, and if you found the answer
Graham V

This thread was discussed between 01/05/2021 and 16/05/2021

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