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MG MGA - Getting into 1st gear

I took my 1622cc Mk2 out for a drive today - It has been sitting in the garage for a few months over the winter.
I find that it can sometimes be impossible, from a stationary start, to get into 1st gear. It doesn't crash/crunch, it just refuses to get into gear, almost like hitting the gate when trying to engage reverse.

That's nothing new on my car, but when driving more frequently, I think I must become accustomed to it, and don't really think much about it. I often engage 2nd to move away at traffic lights to avoid that embarrassing few seconds that seems like much longer, when it wont engage.
Its all standard spec, and I use engine oil in the box.
Any ideas? Thanks
Graham V

Graham

If you select second gear and then try to select first, is it any easier?
Dave O'Neill 2

Hi Dave
Yes, that often (but not always) works better
Graham V

I had that problem long ago and found it could be overcome by easing the clutch slightly. It then generally clunked into gear!
I think perhaps the gears are 'nose' to 'nose' and just need to be aligned.
Barry.
Barry Gannon

Graham,
100% you know I'm going to suggest a thorough change of oil, get it hot, empty it hot for as long as possible to get as much muck/crud/existing oil out as possible. The more oil and stuff left in the more diluted the fresh oil will be.

MGB g/box with engine oil is change at 24K-miles or 24 months whichever is the soonest.

Engine oil isn't as robust as as gear oil and the additives do not last forever in either anyway.

Then you may have clutch wear and/or the need/possibility of changing the clutch (brake) fluid.

Changing the gearbox oil and clutch hydraulic fluids are relatively very cheap things to do (or try) and even if they don't improve matters (much) they will not hinder and will be beneficial overall.

Basics aren't sexy or macho but can often be disproportionately effective.

Also there's DaveO's method, and if new check the gear lever gaiter isn't too stiff and restrictive, and keep your revs down for engagement.

Oh, and of course drive the car more frequently and regularly if you can.

But - even with new modern cars you can be slightly "off-cog" for first and reverse.

Nigel Atkins

Just wait 10 months and then put this on your Christmas list.
Ford T9 5-Speed gearbox.😊
👍
Colyn Firth

I wonder how many are running a multigrade engine oil, rather than the straight 30 weight the factory originally specified? Couple possible issues with this... One, does the gearbox oil get hot enough in use to start acting like the higher viscosity oil (i.e. the bigger number), or does it continue to act like its lighter weight base stock? Two, as a multigrade oil breaks down, the viscosity modifiers that thicken it as it gets hot lose their effectiveness, so as the oil fails, it increasingly acts like the thinner base stock even as it gets hot.

I'm not saying that either of those things are the issue, or that they are even AN issue with our gearboxes. Just something to consider. If the second thing is a factor, that oil change Nigel is recommending may do the trick.

-Del
D Rawlins

I have a close ratio Jack Knight set of straight cut gears in my MGA box running Redline synthetic oil and I still have the problem now and then.
I use both of the methods mentioned above to overcome the problem. Plus try and select the gear earlier than needed and sacrifice a bit of thrust bearing wear. Also I tried to avoid traffic lights where possible and stick to open roads - still possible where I live in Australia.
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

It is most likely that things are not lining up inside because the layshaft is worn. In the end the only solution to a gearbox that doesn't behave is engine out and rebuild it or swap it for the T9. Trying an oil change is not a bad idea, but constant use of slipping into second and then to first doesn't help the wear on the second synchro either
Dominic Clancy

Del has a good point about the temperature of the oil and gearbox. I don't know about in the cold winter but certainly spirited driving of my Midget in summer seems to get my T9 gearbox warm or hot. Although I've no real proof as I have no temperature readings from any instruments.

I think the heat from the engine, exhaust and transmission tunnel can help heat or insulate the gearbox a bit. Of course the air under the car could have a cooling effect but less so in hot summer weather.

You'd hope that a better oil would also have a better package of better additives which will offer a wider range and margins of protection and for possibly longer.

Personally if I was using engine oil in a gearbox now I'd change it every 2 years (24k-miles) as its not as robust in a gearbox as a gear oil. A thorough hot change of oil obviously refreshes the oil but also gives the opportunity to see what else comes out with the old oil.

In a MGB thread Paul Hunt put up an April 1975 BL Technical Service Bulletin, for Service Personnel, that "Hypoid SAE 90 has now been approved for use in the gearbox on MG vehicles" (this related to the B/GT). This is despite the 1976 Driver's Handbook still showing engine oil. Note, Paul is a strong believer in using older and standard spec oils.

As Dominic has put if the box has damage or wear fresh oil will not turn back time but might help by offering slightly easier working for the box and greater protection than with worn and/or much lower quality oil that might be the existing oil.


Nigel Atkins

Thanks for all the helpful comments - Oh and thank you too Colyn ! :)

The posts have made me realise that I haven't changed my gearbox oil for some considerable time. I dont do a high mileage, but I know its not just about mileage but also about time.
So that will be the first thing to try - although as I said, I always had the first gear problem. But possibly it is worse than before, I'm not sure. Anyway an oil change is easy enough and cant do any harm.

Thanks
Graham V

>>Anyway an oil change is easy enough and cant do any harm.<<

Normally it is (except on a RV8 apparently) and not too much quantity or expense (except a little more on an RV8) - but it will probably do your car some good and certainly no harm.

Let us know how you get on, don't expect miracles but you might find an improvement, if only a placebo one perhaps.

Do remember hot and long, and I pour a little fresh warmed oil through the open box at the very end of the drain as a final little flush.


Nigel Atkins

Oops! Sorry Graham.

Your post ("Thanks for all the helpful comments - Oh and thank you too Colyn ! :)" ) did make did make me chuckle though.

In other words, "Thanks for all the helpful comments and thanks Colyn for the un-helpful one" :^)

A Ford Sierra T9 gearbox box would fix the 1st gear selection problem though, but it is an expensive way to do it.

My last two MGAs which were FHCs had exactly the same random 1st gear selection problem but I usually found that selecting 2nd gear before selecting 1st gear usually worked.

The occasional difficulty in selecting 1st gear means that the MGA probably wouldnt make the ideal getaway car but it does add to the charm of driving one.

Cheers
Colyn

Colyn Firth

Nigel
Yes as we know only to well, changing the gearbox oil on an MGR is a very different story. But that is what started me thinking in the first place. Replacing the oil on that from what MG originally recommended, improves things considerably. So I was wondering if there might be something similar for the MGA box.

Colyn
Your original post made me smile too. Frankly, much as I would like a 5 speed box, I do such a low mileage that it's hard to justify. I spoke to someone at the classic car show about the Vitesse 5 speed Mazda box. It has a concentric slave which is quite neat.
Thinking about using it as a getaway car, the police did of course use an MGA. I wonder what box it had?

G
Graham V

Graham,
but the others don't know.

The other chap with the RV8 said the oils had been changed on his but didn't mention any hassle with the change on the gearbox - but someone else done the work, I think.

I don't know the MGA box and don't know what owners might vary to, I'd look at what type of oil the class winning MGA racers use as they'd look for advantage over tradition in their oil selections.

The same Castrol might not be wide of the mark - but the MGA box unlike the B box may need a 'thinner' oil like the SAE 30, I don't know.

Always good to hear feedback or solutions to threads - good, bad or indifferent adds to the knowledge pool.

And of course I won't think of axle oil changes. I might have dreamt it but I thought somewhere it originally said biennial (I had to look that word up) oil changes on g/box and rear axle but I've never seen a MGA workshop manual or Driver's Handbook so I don't know.

Nigel Atkins

A couple of points.

Firstly as a 49 year A owner I can confirm these gearboxes have always had the so called first gear problem so it is nothing to do with modern oils.

Secondly surely the pre 4 synchro B gearbox is internally the same as the A box?

Paul
Paul Dean

Paul,
I wasn't suggesting the problem was actually from the oil but as Graham knows different oils can help a little or an old (in age) and/or different type of oil may even hinder a little. Or even sometimes the owner may not have checked the level (not meaning you Graham :)).

Well I'd have thought the same about the box A to B as you but I don't know for sure and people have their own strong preferences and beliefs particularly with oils so best to suggest and hint.

As you have 49 years of experience how loud or not is first gear whine on a typical A?

Cheers.
Nigel Atkins

Thanks everyone.
I will treat my fist gear with respect - as part of the charm that comes with the privilege of owning such a lovely car.
At least until Colyn treats me to a new 5 speed box

Graham
Graham V

I think the only B 3 synchro boxes that are significantly different internally from the A boxes were the late 1967 version which had the improved 2nd gear synchro arrangement and the improved 4 bearing laygear with larger shaft. Both of which can be retrofitted to the earlier boxes. The latter requiring some machining.

-Del
D Rawlins

Del

By late '67 the B had a 4-synchro 'box.
Dave O'Neill 2

Nigel

As you asked I haven’t notice the wine changing significantly over the years. Isn’t it just what you expect with straight cut 1st?

By the way I am interested in the oil discussion as is am due an oil change.

Paul
Paul Dean

I was interested to see the TSB from 1975, I always made a point of reading everyone we had sent to us, and I had not seen this one before, I contacted an old work college, (who had the job of filing all these TSBs) in todays workshops he would be known as the Master tech, and he also told me he had never seen it before, but he did remind me of a case where another workshop in the town bought and fitted a new L/H overdrive to a B and filled it with Hypoid SAE 90, and on road test everything was fine until the overdrive was selected, Then there was a big bang I don't know what broke, but when they returned the unit to us to send back for a warranty claim the factory rejected the claim, on the grounds of it having the wrong oil in it, something to think about when you are changing the oil in your O/D box
Andy Tilney

Paul,
thanks for the reply. I only asked as my mate said the box I had (previously, now T9) in my Midget was the loudest he'd heard for first gear and he'd had a ropey A in the 60s and said almost all cars sounded like that then but mine was loud. I thought mine was loud but not excessively so, well from the driver's seat anyway, but I wouldn't know as I was a mere child in the 60s. :)
Nigel Atkins

Interesting Andy, the plot as they say thickens. What oil do the o/d refurbishers recommend in other marques and models (I can't remember).

Andy I must have been a Master Tech then, hard to believe, as I used to keep my Policy & Prices Handbook, product data sheets file and company Policy and Procedures Book, up to date and in good order. I had to keep an eye on them and hide my personal copies of the Policy & Prices and product data sheet file when I wasn't there as others would borrow it or look at it and leave it in a right mess, pages missing or out of order. Others had the first or second books but couldn't be ar*ed to properly update and leave pages loose so they got lost or have the previous updates instead of current.

I've always like the idea of information being available. When I was supposed to be in charge and people came to me with questions I explained that I operated a library system and they could look the information up for themselves as long as the books didn't leave the room but most didn't bother and waited until I was around to ask as I could turn the page up quickly knowing where to find it and having actually read the updates(!). I always said I knew very little, but I usually knew where to find the information, not anymore though. :)

Nigel Atkins

> By late '67 the B had a 4-synchro 'box.

I don't know when the exact change over was to the 4 synchro box (not really an MGB guy), but in the last year (and maybe a little before) of its production, the 3 synchro box did get the improved 2nd gear and synchro combo, and the 4 bearing laygear with larger diameter shaft. Those parts can be fitted to the earlier boxes, which I have done to mine. The box that incorporated those changes in production I have usually seen referred to as either the '67 or the late'67 3 synchro. I mentioned it only to point out that not all of the MGB 3 synchro boxes were the same internally as the MGA boxes, in response to Paul's question.

-Del
D Rawlins

Del, the change points for these items always interested me.

The steel second gear baulk ring and appropriate second gear were introduced in December 1965, not long after my own 1965 MGB was built.

The larger ("4 hole") layshaft came quite late, in March 1967. It apparently had already been fitted with the close ratio competition box, so the improved durability of the larger layshaft had presumably been by then established.
The Mk II MGB, and the new four synchro box arrived (in the UK) from November 1967, so the larger layshaft 3 synchro gearbox was only in standard production for about 8 months.

My 1965 MGB now has both the steel second gear synchro ring and the appropriate second gear, (has a different part number) and the four hole layshaft fitted.
The change to the later second gear is a straight swap. To fit the larger layshaft to the earlier gearboxes requires the case to be reamed.
The same components can of course be similarly fitted to the MGA gearboxes.
T Aczel

Thanks for that info. I had been under the impression that both improvements were introduced at the same time, but I was apparently mistaken.

I ended up springing for the special piloted adjustable reamer needed to ream for the larger shaft. I will probably keep it until my brother's car is done and I also have a spare box I may rebuild at some point too.

-Del
D Rawlins

3-Sync boxes in both As and Bs do that sometimes. Since you always have to go 2nd before 1st anyway, the easy way to defeat the problem when it occurs is to go back to 2nd and move the car slightly with the clutch, then go again to 1st. It only has to move a fraction of an inch. If you're on a hill you can even let it roll on its own. Any movement of the rear wheels, even an imperceptible amount, will clear up the issue.

I've always envisioned the gears "nose to nose" as well, and it does seem a plausible scenario. 20W-50 vs 30W-ND does not make a difference, I've tried them both.

Regarding the 3 to 4 sync change, that also happened with the change of center tunnel. The cars built for 4-sync boxes had a wider tunnel and were built as '68 models, at least in the USA. They also included the padded dash panel and other things the home market never saw. So a true '67 year model would have a 3-sync gearbox, no exceptions.
Steve Simmons

And getting back to the original topic of this thread, I'm embarrassed to say that I sometimes seem to have an ability to recall things I read very long ago, such as in the 1960s even.
I can remember quite well reading in a road test (Australian publication) of the period, of an MGB in which the journalist commented that Issigonis was opposed to the use of synchromesh on first gear because sometimes the gears will obstruct and not mesh. Yet this was precisely what the test MGB was, according to the writer, sometimes inclined to do. Even then, as just a bit of a car tragic kid, I remember wondering if Issigonis really had said that; it didn't make sense to me. As Steve said, I too imagine the gears as "nose to nose" when this occurs.
T Aczel

My wife's modern car's German made (and we all know German engineering quality is great(?) always is, isn't it(?)) gearbox with first (and reverse) can be what I probably totally incorrectly and technically wrongly describe as 'off cog' and is difficult to engage unless slight clutch play or as Steve has put inch-roll.

With our older cars changing the g/box oil to/from 20w/50 and 30 won't make the problem disappear but just refreshing the oil with new of the same type may help generally and might help ease getting first otherwise, a very little, slight bit, or not. Changing the make and model of the oil might help a little too, or not.

Changing oil type, make and model will also not make you taller, slimmer or better looking, manage your expectations and you'll be less disappointed but more accepting of any improvements, real, noticeable or not or placebo.
Nigel Atkins

You saved me some time and money today Nigel. My wife wanted me to be taller, slimmer and better looking so I was going to change my gearbox oil. But now I know it won't work. :)
Steve Simmons

Steve,
change your gearbox oil, your wife knows you'll still be you even if you are taller, slimmer and better looking but she'll really appreciate sharing the details of gearbox lubrication maintenance, she'll be boasting about it with her circle of friends. Before you know it gearbox oils will be in short supply for miles around.
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 02/03/2019 and 09/03/2019

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