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MG MGA - MGA Tool Kit

The MGA travelling toolkit is well documented. However, I have some 30 Motor and Autocar annual road test books and, out of curiosity, I had a browse in the "Motor Road Tests of 1956 Cars" in which the MGA has a 4 page spread. Under the coachwork and equipment list it states that the MGA was equipped with a touch-up paint pencil.

I have never seen one and did not spot it or mentioned on Barney's site. Can anyone throw any light?

Steve

Steve Gyles

Hi Steve, I have seen or heard of it mentioned before but I can't when,who or how, but then struggle to remember what I had for breakfast :)


Gordon
G C Pugh

Steve,
NEVER EVER trust without reliable collaboration anything that a journalist has written, they tend to be very lax with getting correct information or applying the information they're given fully or correctly. They also tend to copy the mistakes given by other journalists. I've got a few books on the Spridget with period road tests and there's usually some inaccuracies that I spot and I'm not an expert.

I've given a jurno a simple and short bullet list of facts for an article but the article had errors from the facts given.

On another occasion I was twice at least misquoted.

I think they just commit stuff to their memory rather than take notes from others or themselves then forget, get confused or leave it too long to record for the article.
Nigel Atkins

Looking in my Approved Accessories Price List from June 1958, Paint Pencils were available at 4/9- in a wide variety of colours. MG OEW had part number ADE1560. orient Red is ADE1567. Paint sray packs were listed for Austin, Morris and Wolseley, but not for MG.
Dominic Clancy

Nigel is right to say, don't believe all you read in the press.

Many years ago, my profession was being targeted very hard by the press, particularly on the subject of value for money. Many people back then didn't really want to wear spectacles and absolutely hated the idea of having to pay for them.

So a group of active local opticians decided to try and get some good publicity (for a change) and try to raise some funds to pay for a scanner for our local hospital.
My contribution was by being sponsored to run the local Half-Marathon and I raised £600. Overall, we raised about £6000.

We invited the local press to the official handover of the cheque to the hospital and they did indeed print the picture in the local newspaper.

BUT, the headline said "Hospital hands £6000 to local opticians!"

They got it completely wrong and we were slated yet again by the local readers for taking money from the NHS!

Ah well, at least the hospital got their scanner.

Colyn
Colyn Firth

Further to my opener I found 'The Motor' annual road test book for 1958 (2 years later than the one I noted) also included the colour pencil for the Coupe. However other annuals listing the 1600 Roadster and then the Twin Cam had dropped it from the list.

Yes, we have all suffered from inaccurate journalism on topics close to our specialist knowledge. But it was an odd item to be 'misquoted' in an otherwise correct and car specific list.

With my 3 years of intimate aircrew manual knowledge of the introduction to service of the Tornado fighter aircraft I would think it was a list originally drawn up by the MG Tech Pubs Dept and got missed when production (with its associated cost cutting) got underway.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Steve,
also bear in mind copied/repeated errors.

It might not be a misquote but an error by the original source. In commercial companies things aren't usually done to military precision, there can be many reasons for corner cutting, mistakes errors and omissions. Press and publicity departments aren't usually staffed by those that need or like to be precise, often just the opposite.

Even MG factory records such as workshop manuals and (shhhh, don't repeat this) my own beloved Driver's Handbooks can have repeated errors running through various prints/editions. Just imagine now with copy&paste.

Looking back over nearly 30 years of various classic MG car magazines last year it was interesting to see how despite the subjects being covered numerous times by these specialist magazines that a few errors persisted, no doubt copied from earlier articles without checking (don't ask what as I can't remember now).
Nigel Atkins

Nigel

I had 3 project aircraft under my remit during my time at Boscombe Down (the MoD aircraft test facility) - Tornado, Phantom and Jet Provost.

One of the more dangerous printed errors I inherited for investigation was in the Phantom emergency checklist. It was for a specific hydraulic system failure. It said in the notes "Lateral control may be impaired when the flaps are lowered". The aircrew in question that suffered this emergency did not like what they read so they elected to land flapless - and crashed during the approach. Fortunately it was in the simulator. In the debrief it transpired that the words were ambiguous to them and would have better read: "Lateral control may be impaired while the flaps are lowering". The pneumatic emergency supply to blow down the flaps by-passed the symmetry valves.

Just goes to show how careful you need to be with your written work. It might make total sense to the author but open to interpretation by a third party.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Its also documented in Clausager's "Original MGA", to quote: "In the 1500 tool kit there was also a Lockheed brake bleeder screw & drain tube, but only the early 1500 cars came with a Tipon touch-up pencil as standard."
Nick Kopernik

There we go Nick has it (although it has been said that Mr Clausager's B book has errors).

Steve,
for me just about every post I know what I mean to write but that's not always fully what gets typed. I have difficulty seeing the mistakes in the raw white prepost box and even when posted I can go through my post a number of times and miss bits. Sometimes I might see an old post and even I don't fully know what was meant to be written. I must be part of the reason for the post edit guillotine is now 15mins.

Imagine this in your checklist, I often forget to put in the word not, sometimes more than once in a sentence! I've no idea why, bit like when adding a word and it goes after instead of before the word intended (or is it the other way round) apparently that's a common thing.
Nigel Atkins

I spent some time and found another reference, this time in an early version of a 1500's Owner's Manual and sure enough, the touch up pencil is listed as part of the tool kit. I guess the final line (in parentheses) on the attached page says it all.

Nick Kopernik

I'm embarrassed now, I should have thought of that, of course the Driver's Handbook comes to the rescue once again. :)

And of course its on Barney's site (page 20 of the book) "The tools supplied may vary or be omitted from time to time as a result of design modifications" as Nick pointed out. -
https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/books/pdf/Drivers_Handbook_1500-1st.pdf
Nigel Atkins

That's interesting. It's been omitted from my driver's manual.

Steve Gyles

There were at least 8 different editions of this booklet for the 1500's. Originally titled "Operation Manual", it was subsequently changed to "Driver's Handbook" somewhere early on. And it would also appear that the factory started to fiddle with the components of the tool kits as they gradually reduced the number of tools in them, and then somewhere along the way they stopped listing these parts in the handbooks. You can also go in an early 1500 Service Parts List and see the part numbers for the Tipon touch up pencils.
Nick Kopernik

Well, on copying the info from the hyperlink I put up as I was typing it I wondered "What's modifca ions?", I thought it might be Latin but then spell-check helped me out.

Don't laugh, it could happen to you one day - no do laugh, it gets worse, I read it as modifca icons anyway at first. :)
Nigel Atkins

Has anyone seen one of these pencils? It would be interesting to see a picture of one. A quick search of the internet doesn’t help.

Mark
Mark Wellard

Mark, we owned two P4 model Rover 90 cars back in the sixties.
I clearly remember that the tool kit in the second contained a touch up pen. Probably the first also; I just no longer remember. (I was probably too preoccupied playing with the big Bakelite Freewheel knob! That was such a COOL thing!!)
I even think I recall the colour: "Sage Green".
It was cylindrical with a cap and about the size of a crayon. Perhaps 2/3 the size of a whiteboard marker pen.

Here's a couple of images I found on the net.
I seem to recall just one touch up paint pen; these have two each. Perhaps for two tone cars?

It's a long time ago now, but if my memory is correct, ours had either a black or (Sage) green cap, and the body of the pen was the contained paint colour, Sage Green.





T Aczel

Not a picture, but a drawing from the "Handbook" shows what the Tipon pencil looked like. It had a surprisingly wide, flat brush vs. the narrow ones in use today.

Nick Kopernik

T Aczel, I remember the dashboard freewheel on my 1938 Rover 14 Sportsman. (my first car in 63, 28 pounds) Crash gearbox, but clutchless changes in freewheel!
Art Pearse

The drawings are often as illustrations and not necessarily always 100% accurate or 100% scaled. I don't know, but is that drawing even of an MGA?


Nigel Atkins

Well its a bitterly cold and snowy morning and having nothing but time, I did some searching and was able to find some photos of "Tipon" touch-up pencils. Some history: a U.S. patent (see pdf)was awarded in 1949 to an HW Jockers of New Jersey USA (pat no. 2485494) and this pat.# appears on "Tipon" touch-up pencils made by Tipon Corp. of Galion Ohio. First photo depicts the size and what the tip looked like before use. Side image depicts "Tipons" made for GM cars (early 50's). Now we know that "Tipon" pencils were also used in BMC kits. I found a reference to a D.J. Tipon Ltd. in Piccadilly, and their Sales Director, a Mr. Stewart Staples, which supplied paints, resins and tools for automotive body work. There is also a link to Austin Motors and D.J. Tipon Ltd. as D.J. Tipon Ltd. made "Austin of England" touch up paints. Second pic shows what these touch-ups looked like in the early 50's; they do sport a reference to D.J. Tipon Ltd. on them. Now D.J. Tipon Ltd. was actually owned by a Mr. Donald Joseph and I'm going out on a bit of a limb here with the thought that Mr. Donald Joseph licensed the name "Tipon" for his company & some products: hence D.J. Tipon Ltd. I'd expect that the MGA "Tipons" were similar in nature, with functionality intact but maybe different packaging to those pictured, but can't be sure until one is actually produced (what's the chance of that happening??, but I'm going to try to find one.....maybe.

Hmmmm, feels like I'm back at work with all this effort!!!

Thoughts, rebuttal, commentary?






Nick Kopernik

Good bit of research Nick. That will get the Concours people going!

Steve
Steve Gyles

And here's me thinking I had finished with MGA tool kits for good :)
G C Pugh

Yes, well done Nick.

With the pens being a bit over 4" long it does suggest the drawing is flexible with scale, and perhaps the drawing is of another model.

Now the 'concourse boys' will need to know exact car numbers for when the pens were part of the tool kit so they can say with great authority, but little respect of factory or life facts, "that's not correct for this car".
Nigel Atkins

Nigel

I cannot wait for the next MG gathering to ask the question of any of the 'smug' guys sitting there eating sarnies in front of their perfect car, boot and bonnet open for inspection!

Steve
Steve Gyles

Now don't be naughty and say in a stage whisper "so nearly correct" or the less subtle "that's not right" and walk away before they can ask what and argue it is. :)

I've no problem with the polish guys 'n' gals just their attitude as they guard their vehicle from all but the worthy, at a general public show putting off anyone with a casual interest instead waiting for praise from those that can recognise the "correct" bits of their vehicle.

A chap with an E-type turned up and mistakenly parked with our lot at a show somewhere or other and I explained this was the open bit and he'd have kids crawling all over his car, he just replied it was just a car and his family did the same. He had people sitting in the car, kids turning the wheel and sounding the horn. He literally got a youngster with sticky hands mark up his car that he'd polished and didn't say a word and only wiped off the marks once the family was out of sight to save the parents any embarrassment. Mind you I think there were a couple of bits that might not have been "correct" on his car, an expert would know for sure. E-Type owners are often very precios about the model and often too very unrealistic about it.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, I hate to say this but I think you are being a touch unfair.

There are many many people that like to do things correctly with the genuine parts so that everything looks (and is) correct rather than bodge. These same people are quite happy to open the door and let someone (even young kids) sit in the car and take some photos / selfies for them. I know that the "guests" are always hugely appreciative. It isn't an either / or personality trait, and although I don't visit many car shows, I have always found people very restrained and respectful of the car and have never regretted giving anyone the opportunity to enjoy sitting in the car and sometimes even taking it for a drive.

Dominic Clancy

Donomic,
no need to worry about picking me up on generalisations.

But I think you might be misunderstanding what I put and meant, it's not about genuine parts against bodges, in fact it's more about what was and is a genuine part and some not being able to accept that these things are often not simple black and white definitions.

If you've not been to many shows then you'll have to accept that in the last 30+ years I have, enough to last me two lifetimes. Some from set-up to breakdown. I've also dealt with the general public from Lord-X to places where you wipe your feet on the way out, and over-precious and over-nerdy classic car owners exist and turn up to general public shows when their attitudes and temperaments would make it best that they didn't but they are rewarded when they get admiration from the select few that meet the criteria. If you think I'm being cynical you are correct but then I've meet too many more of these types at shows than you.

I never believed in stereotypes, thought it was all made up or exaggerated, until I was about 20 and saw a bit more of life outside of my particular bubble. People are not generally better or worse just different, sometimes they're unable to adapt to their surroundings, that's all of us - even me.:)

I think even you would be nervous with your car at some of the charity cheque presentations the club's been on to places with children with special needs that couldn't care less about concours correct examples of special editions or if some famous racing driver's butt-cheek has touch the seat but loves its bright colour and the sound of the horn, or swinging on the indicator stalk like it was the column shift of a big truck. Some classic owners have little understanding of true values, shiny painted metal is fine as far as it goes but it's not that far.

BTW, I've won at a Greenwoods car show but that's another story ... :)
Nigel Atkins

I dug a bit deeper and found a vintage ad for a French "Tipon" manufacturer & distributor (founded in 1857!!); not MGA related, but it does strengthen the fact that the "Tipon" touch up pencil was licensed & manufactured in a number of countries. First picture is of the ad, second is a fusion of the manufacturer's letterhead and a reference to their capabilities from a 1967 manufacturing compendium.




Nick Kopernik

Steve (and others),
The touch up paint is listed in the SPL in Section S on page S.3
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/books/spl/spl_1500_s.pdf

Jim
JL Cheatham

Nigel,
you have reminded me of the very first time I attended an MG car show about 10 years ago.

I parked my car to an absolutely mint OEW 1500 roadster, the car was absolutely perfect, it looked brand new to me and I complemented the owner on its amazing condition.

At the time, my car was recently restored and looked pretty good, with unmarked paintwork and a very high level of polish, (it's not quite so good now).

The owner of the 1500 asked me if I was competing in the Concours competition but before I could answer , he was all over my car, examining it in detail.

When I caught up with him he was saying "Ahah, that's the wrong engine for this model", as if to say, "Caught you!"

I had to smile because, although I had to complement him on spotting the subtle 1.8 cast on on top of the cylinder head which gave the game away on my non-standard MGB engine.

In his zeal to find fault, he hadn't realised that he was looking at the cylinder head through 2 rows of very obviously non standard louvres cut into the bonnet. He also failed to notice that the car had 6" wide alloy replica knock-off wheels fitted with very wide 185 tyres, that the suspension was lowered by 2 inches, the small Moto-Lita steering wheel and the fact that the car had no bumpers fitted.

I didn't have the heart to tell him that my car wasn't even entered in the Concours, it just happened to be parked next to his car.

I expect he has forgotten me, but I will always remember him with a smile.

Cheers
Colyn

PS. I hope Dominic likes his new name
Donomic :^)






Colyn Firth

I used to have an 'Austin Healey' Spridget and the AH club didn't like it because it wasn't a 'big Healey' or even 'Sprite Mk1' and some of the MG lot didn't like it because it had AH badges, especially before I swapped out the Midget rad grille it came with.

At one show I saw a Midget drive in with an AH rad grille so I rushed over to the driver to ask if he wanted to swap it with the Midget grille I had, he said bring it over and he'd have a look.

I took the rad grille off my car, lay on the grass to get at the two bottom screws, watched as the two end top nuts of the four drop into the rad cowling and flounder around to find and retrieve them.

I take my rad grille over to the Midget owner for his approval, which he readily gives as my grille was in better condition than his. I then offer to lend my tools to remove his grille, no need it's only wedged in. When I fit it to my car I knock it back too far and struggle to pull it forward again so I left it as I was called away at this point. I can't remember now ever bothering to to fit the 6 screws and four lots of nuts and washers (perhaps I did but can't remember).
Nigel Atkins

Don't get me started on our MG purists here in Australia!
Gary Lock

...or Honda purists, Gary!
Mike Ellsmore

Mike, after I sold the car, my heart rate settled down, and the nervous sweats went away!
Gary Lock

This thread was discussed between 19/01/2021 and 07/03/2021

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