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MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - Anti-sway bar

I just removed the rear end from my MG and am about to take the Mustang rear end to get it shortened and have the brackets welded on. I am having some brackets made for the torsion bars and was about to make some other brackets for an anti-sway bar, when I saw that the 1977 B has some kind of swaybar already on it as a standard. I cannot find room to add my own sway bar yet. Will the standard swaybar on the car suffice for a V8 conversion or will I have to make my own?
Samy

It's unlikely that a rear anti-roll bar will be necessary on your car. What torsion bars are you talking about?
George B.

I dunno, I _really_ like the Hopkinson rear roll bar BUT if someone said 'you need to pay attention, because you can induce snap oversteer coming out of corners' I would have to agree.

What the ^&%* kind of torsion bars are you talking about???!?
Ted

I missed typed torsion bar. It should be a traction bar, to prevent twisting in the rear axle. Also when I say an anti-sway bar, I have heard it called an antiroll bar or a Panhard Rod. If there is a difference please let me know. Will the standard antiroll bar on the car handle the cars' shift in weight (or horizontal movement) during hard cornering or do I still need to find a way to fabricate and install a Panhard Rod?
Samy

The factory V8 did not come with a rear anti-roll (sway) bar.

The panhard rod works on a different principle and attached the axle laterally to the body thereby reducing sideways movement (but accepting a height penalty).

Tramp bars attach the axle lengthwise to the body to prevent spring wind up during hard acceleration.


Many MG modifyers fit some or all of these - but some of the racers prefer to let the back end move more freely. They fit a front roll bar, negative wishbones and re-do all the suspension bushes with a harder compound
Roger

As has been mentioned in othr threads, the stock swaybar acts like a anti-tramp bar in a limited fashion. The only weakness in the stock swaybar set-up besides the small bar is the axle mount clamps. On my V8 they were bent after 1500mile including a full day at the drag strip. I would definitely recommend you keep the swaybars ont he car. My car has none and handles terribly.
Larry Embrey

What about the Lateral movement. Will the standard antiroll bar handle it or is it recommended to fabricate a Panhard Rod? Thank you very much for your info about the racers not having them. I will look into the front suspension also.
Samy

My factory V8 was modified by the PO with the Ron Hopkinson rear bar and uprated front bar and I have been able to compare it with an unmodified factory V8 as well as my own roadster. The car does ride very flat, with little dive, but it does have a tendency to oversteer in the wet even with the thicker front bar. However tyre choice particularly between front and rear also has a significant effect on oversteer. The rear bar does seem to improve axle location, particularly over bumps under power.
Paul Hunt

Paul that's the point - the B with one thick front roll bar is such a forgiving beast - Oversteer as the result of a rear bar is an uncomfortable sensation but to balance the argument one should probably consider the possibility (with an unmodified rear end) of a snake situation at high speed - OK for racers prepared for it - terrifying if you have a lot of traffic around you.

- the panhard rod would be my favoured solution (but then I am not looking for fast take off - just for high average speeds. Safety fast on the autobahn.

Samy - try to borrow a car with a PH rod.
Roger

What is the consensus on sizing for sway bars? I know bigget front but what are you folks finding works?? 1" front, 3/4" rear??
7/8" front and 1/2" rear??

Larry Embrey

Larry,

For normal road use a 3/4 at front is fine. However if considering using a rear bar I would go for 7/8 at front and if understeers try a small rear bar.

Paul
Paul

Larry,

If RB ride height may need rear bar.

Paul
Paul

UPDATE:
It had been recommended in a thread that since I currently cannot fit a front swaybar I should remove the rear swaybar as just a rear would cause oversteer problems. I had done this and run the car for a month and a half. Going to our ABFM last weekend I was caravaning with 5 other B's and noticed how badly my car handled compared to thiers. I was all healed over and the ride uncomfortable, while they smoothly cornered and actually pulled away from me. I came home Monday night and re-installed the stock rear swaybar, then followed much of the route taked for the show on the way to work Tues.

WOW!!! What an amazing difference!! I would strongly advise anyone out there to always run at least a swaybar, front or rear if you cannot run both. The car handles 100% better. I was taking corners much faster and smoother and actually was able to push the car a good 10mph+ faster through many freeway on/of ramps in comfort. Now I can finally push the car to the edge of the tires ability to hold rather than backing off due to being uncomfortable..
Larry Embrey

Jeez, Larry, running w/just a rear bar can be *quite* dangerous because that car will power oversteer like you read about. Just the thought of you pouring on the coal with that 302 into a sharp turn with just a rear bar makes me queasy! ... you'll be picking bark out of the door-handles. It occurs to me that there isn't all that much magic to sway bars -- just get a 7/8 bar up front bent to go around your pulley ... in the worst case they'll have to cut out a section and weld in whatever shape you need to clear the motor -- but as long as the X-sectional area's the same and it's close to the same grade of steel, it should work great. They're certainly no high grade of steel, so welding in a new piece shouldn't be difficult. Sure, the welded areas will be a little more brittle but you're not talking about tons of bar twisting in any case.
David

Larry,
David's comments make sense, and if you do go the route of having a roll bar made up involving welding, you could go the addtional step of having the bar heat treated to avoid any brittleness. There's a number of local places here that have big ovens and metallurgists who know just what needs to be done. I had a couple of welded pieces stress relieved for $25. I'm sure Tacoma has these companies as well. Joe
Joe Ullman

There is no-place here that can fabricate a swaybar except for one, and they are saying $250 at a min for one front swaybar. That is just a bit out of line to me. I am looking into making my own pulleys for the motor that would let me have a bar in the stock location, then I could just get a off the shelf uprated bar and move on to other issues.

I can tall you quite honestly that the car handles more tamely with the swaybar than without, I took a 90* offramp lastnight at a good 50mph and the car was rock solid even when I dropped the hammer in 3rd gear exiting the turn. Comparetively I would have maybe taken it at 30 without a bar.. It is THAT pronounced, and she leans SOO bad that it is not even enjoyable to drive the car. anyone with a bone stock 76B (RB hieght and no sway bars) can tell you what it is like.

Joe, I have a stock sway bar that could be used as a template, but I would need a 7/8 or 1" bar made from scratch.. If your local guys can do that let me know!!
Larry Embrey

Larry, look at ford preformance they have shorter water pump and pull kits. I've got the serpentine set up on mine.
Steve Nightingale

I can't use that water pump. I have a early block standard rotation, short pump is reverse rotation..

Shorteneing my current crank pulley will be easy as it is a dual belt unit and the rear grove is about perfect.. Then making a water pump pulley should not be to hard..

Larry Embrey

Sorry to be so argumentative about the swaybars, I just know how my car handles with and without. Maybe some cars handle badly, or maybe I am just carefull with my fat right foot, but she has not exhibited oversteer unless during a fresh rain and then is no worse than my pick-up truck..
Larry Embrey

Larry,
You certainly know your car better than anyone! The friendly exchange of opinion and info is what it's all about!
Dutchman's machine shop in Portland can and will make anything, not cheap, but probably less than $250. In addition to auto machine work, they do work for Boeing, and they're where I go when I have something that absolutely has to be right. There's also a guy here in Vancouver, Westside Welding, who you might want to give a call; he's into British cars, and is able to do heavy bending. If you call him, you might ask him if it would need stress relieving.

Best, JOe
Joe Ullman

Larry - Try the Club - even allowing P&P they have to be cheaper. If the pulley does get in the way - make up some spacers to mount the bar lower.
meantime - careful as you go R
Roger

Larry:
A friend who worked at Ben's Springs in Seattle made up a 7/8" bar for my non-V8 GT (using my stock bar as a template) in his spare time. Unfortunately Ben's is no longer in business, but if you can find a shop that caters to suspension work for large (tractor-trailer size) trucks and motor homes, they should be able to whip one out for you. Especially if you offer to let the guy who makes it test-drive the setup on your car when he's finished!
Regards,
Jerry
Jerry Causey

Larry,

I'm with the others here, I'm sure that there are a number of places that can custom make a sway bar. Take or send your old one and tell them to make it maybe 1" in dia. with a 3" dip 8-10" wide in the middle of the bar or whatever you deem will make it fit. It should be heat forged from high carbon steel, hardened & stress-relieved, then have it powdercoated. :)

Have you checked with the major manufacturers to see if they do custom orders?
Carl

Larry,
If you're happy with the handling and there's no problem even in the wet, maybe the extra weight of the Ford lump is enough to balance the effect of the rear sway bar. Why not try it out for awhile, CAREFULLY, under various conditions, before you invest and fit a front bar? But then, you probably thought of that already. Joe
Joe Ullman

I know she can use more help, so a front bar is the next step.

I am actually looking at cutting the water pump down (see water pump thread posted shortly) to get the water pump pulley I have now to line up with the rear of the 2 grooves on my Crank pulley. Then I can take the crank pulley to the lather at work and have the front groove machined off. This will let me put a stock tpe bar in the car AND AND AND!! probably put on a nie big puller fan which will solve my cooling worries.. Nothing like 2 birds with one stone!!

I do really appreciate the help. Joe, you heading to Portland ABFM?? I am still up in the air, it is more $$ than Bellevue was, but maybe we can meet up down there!??
Larry Embrey

Larry,
Oh yeah, I'm goin. They always have lotsa parts for sale, and cars to look at. Since I live directly on the way there for you, you could stop by the house and help me turn the B over on it's back so I can do some work on the bottom....just kidding. But, if you brought your V8, then my neighbors could see that there's a good reason that I've been spending so much time in my garage the past years!

best, Joe
Joe Ullman

Joe,
I am still thinking about it. I will have to see if Kurt and Terry are going to bring thiers. That way we at least have 3 V8 at the show. My personal domain is down right now, but drop me an email at : lamrith@hotmail.com

That way we can swap directions etc..
Larry Embrey

Larry,

There are several things that you can do. One, as mentioned was to use lowering blocks at the stock swaybar mounts. These can be made of anything, even oak if sealed well. Next would be to heat and bend the stock swaybar to clear the pulley. Easy enough if you have an acetylene torch, let it cool slowly as quenching is likely to make it hard but brittle. You can play with that if it ends up too soft. But a small bend inside each mount and another in the middle. You can cold bend it if you can get enough leverage on it. This will narrow the bar slightly but should work.

Next is to find a suitable donor bar that can be bent to your satisfaction. No magic to this, just leverage. The ends can be reshaped, welded, or drilled as needed although you may need cobalt drill bits. Don't be afraid to experiment, it ain't rocket science. HTH
Jim Blackwood

Jim,
Thanks for the input. As mentioned on another thread, I have been helped and found a shorter water pump. Why should this matter you ask? Well currently I have a crank pulley that is for a 2 belt system. Due to limitations of pater pump pulley I am using the front belt location. With a shorter water pump, I can abandon (A.K.A. CUT OFF!) that front location which will give me room for the pulley. On top of that it should also give me room to install a large elec pullet fan!!

YIPEE I solve 2 problems with one change heh

I did look at spacing the swaybar mount down, but that was not feasable as I needed around 4inches of drop which would be to much for blocks..

I must thank all involved for the time and effort to help with this, especially Bill Jacobson. Bill took some time looking at my car with me at the Bellevue ABFM and came up with the idea of using the rear belt location and cutting the pulley down.

THANKS GUYS!!
Larry Embrey

This thread was discussed between 24/07/2002 and 04/08/2002

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