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MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - Electric water pumps
| Has anyone had any success with the electric water pumps designed to replace the mechanical one or, more appropriate in my case as I need better flow at idle, the electric booster pump that works in conjunction with the existing mechanical? Thanks, David. |
| David |
| David , can I ask why you feel you need better water flow at idle, this is when the engine is generating its least energy. If it's the usual problem of heat build-up in the engine bay when stopped, the solution I found was to fit louvres towards the back of the bonnet to let the hot air out, and wrap the exhaust pipes with fibreglass lagging. You can see the heat haze rising when stuck in traffic. I have an EFi Vitesse engine, standard V8 radiator, and single Kenlowe fan, and even in the South of France this summer I only had an overheating problem once, in Nice after standing in rush hour traffic for ages, with air temp over 30c. Mike |
| Michael barnfather |
| David - I would agree, it is not fluid flow you need to improve it is airflow. Make sure you have big elect fans or a good engine mounted one. The elect units were originaly made for racers wanting every single fraction of a HP out of thier cars, and while they are better now, they are still not something I would want in a daily driver or high mileage car, least not yet. |
| Larry Embrey |
| Surely fluid flow must be significant as well. Haven't we all been stuck in heavy traffic with an engine overheating and tried reducing the temperature by racing the engine slightly. With electric fans, only the coolant throughput is affected by racing the engine but it always helps to slow the rate of overheating - even if the engine does win in the end. There was a recent post which included a link to some pages giving 10 tips for better cooling. (I can't find it, so I haven't included it here). Coolant flow was pretty high in the list. |
| Marc |
| Agreed, But our problems stem from lack of room around that big engine, tight fitting gearbox, and 8 exhaust pipes jammed in a tight space. If the temp gauge goes back to normal pretty much as soon as you are on the move, which mine does, then clearly the pump and radiator are adequate. Get more air in.(and out)..I've even removed the radiator supports and replaced them with small tubes bolted to wing bolts, and cut holes on the bonnet shut plate, a la MGC. Running RV8 exhausts through the wings (as I said,lagged with Fibreglass tape(a tip from a TVR engineer) has helped a little. I've considered small fans under the louvres to suck hot air out (it works on the MGF, and computers) but in the English climate I'm not sure I need them. I will gladly send you pics if it helps. Mike |
| Michael barnfather |
| Marc, I downloaded the guff on cooling, it was on SreetrodStuff. Mike |
| Michael barnfather |
| Thanks guys, I'm running a 4.6 with stage 2 heads, louvres in the bonnet and a custom aluminium radiator that's a lot taller than standard with a big blower fan against it. Normal driving it's as cool as a cucumber but 10 minutes stationary in traffic and the temp is holding at the high end but only just. This is due to poor flow characteristics around the back of the heads when at idle. I figured an in line 'booster' pump would help eleviate it, maybe linked to come on with the electric fan. I've got the standard manifolds (heard the RV8 style are better for cooling) and used the wrapping but found my manifolds cracked and seemed to make no difference. Running distilled water with 'water wetter' and 20% antifreeze made a definite improvement generally. Thanks, David. |
| David |
| David, I also took the overiders off the bumpers, and fitted a stainless mesh grille......every little helps. Mike |
| Michael barnfather |
| http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/March_2001/Top_Ten_Cooling_Tips.php David, I run similar spec, now with Ali rad twin Pacet and block huggers, unless very high ambients and 1hr + jam its not a problem even before change, in fact, in current weather car is now running on cool side so may have to invest in rad blinds. I'm looking at RV8 4-2-1 ceramic coated to reduce summer temp further just in case of longer jams. Paul |
| Paul |
| So......are we agreed..........electric water pump would not help 'cos the heats got nowhere to go till we get moving. Paul, Can stainless be coated I've seen cast iron a la Jaguar? Inside or outside? Is it not cheaper and easier to invest in some fibreglass tape as TVR did ? My underbonet temperatures reduced considerably by using this stuff (plumbers merchants, about £20 for a big roll). Mike |
| Michael barnfather |
| No we are not agreed! The two extremes in terms of heat dissapation are firstly when the engine is being worked very hard, and in this situation the efficiency of the pump and radiator are critical. Clearly this is the starting point for the design of the cooling system. If the system is designed to cope with this situation then the radiator will be able to cope with any other operating situation IF there is air flow over the radiator AND fluid flow through the radiator. If you now consider the situation of idling in stationary or slow moving traffic, the air flow over the radiator has reduced dramatically and the fluid flow through the radiator has also reduced as this is dependant on engine speed. The air flow can be increased by using electric fans, but this will not help if the water pump is not moving sufficient fluid to carry the heat to the radiator. Equally if as David suggests the fluid flow is also restricted in certain parts of the engine when the flow and pressure generated by the water pump drops there is also the problem of localised hot spots. Therefore an electric pump which can operate at its most efficient at any time required will make a significant difference to the ability of an engine to lose heat energy at idle. This must be the case as the mechanical water pump cannot be at its most efficient when the engine is idling. However the pump is of course irrelevant if the radiator is under capacity or the fans poor. On the subject of underbonnet temperatures, this will be an influence but not a significant one. The vast percentage of the heat energy of the engine will be lost through the radiator, not directly from the engine block to the outside air. The underbonnet temperature is much more relevant to the efficient running of the engine in terms of fuel and air inlet temperature and of course untimately all those plastic bits! As to the reliability of these pumps I suggest that Volkswagen would not be using them in current production cars if they were not up to the mark on reliability and durability. And of course you cannot ignore the other advantages of the electric pump system: - fast engine warm up - controllable engine temperature either summer to winter or whether power or economy are required - less horsepower lost to ancilliaries - can carry on running after the engine has stopped to reduce the problems of heat soak. All in all a great idea! Andy H |
| Andrew Hamilton |
| Andrew, that is excellent information and I am in agreement. David, you never mentioned which engine you are or will be using. Our company uses an electric water pump with our 60° V6 conversions as the only pump and have NO overheat problems at all. If you are using any Rover engine based on the 215 Buick or Buick 215 engine we can supply a direct fit electric coolant pump that is a bolt in for the mechanical pump. You will need 5 13/16" clearance between the water pump body at the pump gasket and any other object in front of the electric pump. Please ask for more info by emailing us directly. We cannot respond with any quotes in these threads because of respect for other vendors and our own professional ethics. I hope I have been of some help. Thank you, Dann Wade British Car Conversions |
| Dann Wade |
| RE: Posted 20 October 2003 at 09:59:04 UK time Michael barnfather, Blackpool, Lancashire Paul, Can stainless be coated I've seen cast iron a la Jaguar? Inside or outside? Yes...I had my RV8 stainless headed ceramic coated inside and out by JetHot down in Alabama, USA. rick |
| rick ingram |
| I thought the electric water pumps were basically just for drag-racing, and got switched off seconds before the start and then back on again after the finish line, so they wouldn't consume horsepower. [In fact (?Larry pls confirm?) I thought drag cars pretty much ran off the battery en route to the finish line; the alternator's decoupled so there's no load on it.] The thing that seems like a -distinct- negative to me is, if it fails, you're not gonna limp home (I mean if your regular water pump springs a leak it ain't the enda the woirld!) but if the electric unit goes kaput, Thy Goose Be Cooked, Dude. |
| David D. |
| David - a supplementary electric pump might indeed be helpful but enhancing primary coolant flow might be more effective. At tickover your engine is making as much (or little) heat as the other V8s - and properly maintained, the factory V8 did not have a problem in ambient temps up to 45 degrees Celsius so long as both fans were running. on the assumption your guage is accurate ? |
| Roger |
| David, you've got to be kidding! You mean to say of all the things that can go wrong you can predict that if the pump did happen to fail that there is nothing else that can cause a complete shut down. Dinosaurus Nervosus has stricken you.All MGB owners have AAA towing insurance. Just in fun. :-) |
| Dann Wade |
| Just to add a bit of a different slant, I have just read an add in "Popular Hot Rodding" from a very respected manufacturer of cooling products for high performance engines, specifically, water pumps, introducing a secondary inline booster water pump. This is an electric inline pump which appears to be able to fit almost any engine, spliced into the lower radiator hose. Manufacturer is Stewart Components, www.waterpumps.com I have no connection, don't know prices. Check it out yourself if interested. Seems like a good idea if you are subject to long traffic tieups, especially in hot weather. |
| Jim Stuart |
| Dann, I've emailed you twice for info but no reply. Marc |
| Marc |
| Marc, I'm sorry but I have no email from you in my box. Are you using another name? Please post. I will send a note to you by using the name you have listed here. Plese use reply email. Thanks, Dann |
| Dann Wade |
| Dann I tried again using your link address. This time I received this message about an hour later:- ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- <killerbv6@aol.com> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to air-zd01.mail.aol.com.: >>> RCPT To:<killerbv6@aol.com> <<< 550 killerbv6 IS NOT ACCEPTING MAIL FROM THIS SENDER 550 <killerbv6@aol.com>... User unknown ************* This is a problem with your email or your service provider Marc |
| Marc |
| Marc, I hope I found thee problem. I sent you test email. Dann |
| Dann |
| Dann I received your email and replied to it. Got another delivery failure message ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- <killerbv6@aol.com> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to air-xm04.mail.aol.com.: >>> RCPT To:<killerbv6@aol.com> <<< 550 killerbv6 IS NOT ACCEPTING MAIL FROM THIS SENDER 550 <killerbv6@aol.com>... User unknown ***************** Your system seems to be blocking messages from me. Maybe it thinks that I'm spamming you. Marc |
| Marc |
| Dann All I want is that you send me some info on your V8 electric water pumps. As your ISP isnot accepting my messages, maybe you can email me. Marc |
| Marc |
| That is a new feature of AOL. You must be using an isp or IP chunk that has spammed AOL in the past. Dan will need to add you to his acceptable emailers list. Don;t you just love AOhelL!?!? |
| Larry Embrey |
| Larry you got the word for AO...L real good. I inadvertently put poor Marc in my spammers list (very sorry Marc) I get so much email that I try to sort the Spam first. He was most likely listed next to a spammer when I busted him in my rush. This has happen to me once before and I tried to correct it with the same suggestion you speak of but noooooo AOL said I had to dump all of the spammers and start over. Guess what? I dumped more than 300 spammers which opened the door for them again! I looked at my list and found him and removed him but I suspect it didn't take. GRRRRRRR Dann BCC |
| Dann Wade |
| In case some of you are still looking into electric pumps I came across this site: www.mawsolutions.co.uk It was listed in Jaguar World this mn. Mike |
| Mike |
| You might want to look at the manufacturers website :- www.daviescraig.com.au Barrie E |
| Barrie Egerton |
| What about an electric drive for the existing water pump. http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=6847&prmenbr=361 Regards Tony |
| Tony Bates |
If the vehicle is stationary and no flow of cool air, other than the fans either electric or mechanical means. A constant flow (electric pump) would be pumping hot water that is just a few degrees cooler but not enough to keep the engine cool. Airflow cools the radiator, water pump flows the cool water from the radiator to the engine. So how an electric water pump help cool the fluid from the radiator while it’s stationary. Only the hot water flow would increase, the water temp can become equal to each other, radiator and engine, and slowly increasing the temp. In the radiator and the engine. I would think that the solution is to install a larger fan. The fan has to purposes, one is to bring in or push cool air from outside (cooler density than the internal air in the engine bay) through the radiator, second is to help with air that already has gone by the radiator, blow the hot air out through some means out of the engine bay. (Air-cools itself while in motion) A fan shroud around the fan does help (evens the air flow around the radiator), larger cfm fan, and some sort of escape for the hot air in the engine bay. Small water pump pulley will increase the rpm of the pump at lower speeds (good idea if you can cool the radiator) but it will create air bubbles at higher rpm and it increase the heat or boil at driving speeds, due to the air bubbles creating hot spots in the block. Electric pump came about to reduce power robbing from the accessories. GM, use a rheostat that would reduce the pump speed to keep up with the water rate of cooling. I am not saying that electric motor driven water pump are not good, what I am saying is that the cooling liquid can not become equal in temp, the liquid has to have time to cool before it goes back in, and if it’s pump back in at a fast rate (same as driving speed) the liquid will do it’s job. I have two friends that use electric water pumps on their big block Chevy’s and they work ok but they also use large fans and shrouds with big engine bays helps |
| Bill Guzman |
| Push the botton to fast. Dont confuse high flow with pump speed, high flow is volume. Water cools by volume not how fast you can turn the pump. If you use an userdrive pulley combo do not change the dia of the water pump. Hi flow, shroud, and ventilation of the engine bay are the way to cool any vehicle. Now if you can afford it, have a radiator made from silver, silver is the best heat desipator, next is the brass, copper. Alum radiators are great due to the larger rows without increasing weight. alum radiators work best when they are polish. enough, back to work I go. |
| Bill Guzman |
| I agree with Bill, but at the risk of boring....we still come back to the age old problem....how to get the hot air out of the engine bay when the car is stationary. There is a tremendous build-up of heat in there which does not go away until the car is on the move......and no amount of pumping of water will change that scenario. My V8 never over-heats when on the move, so clearly the system is adequate apart from when at rest.......even at this time of year my Kenlowe fan cuts in after about 10 minutes parked up with the engine running (and I've got lagged exhausts and a louvred 'hood' ). There always seems to be rather more theory than practice on this side.....has anybody actually used electric pumps.....and if so have they helped ? Mike |
| Michael barnfather |
| Michael, I use electric water pumps in all my conversion applications as the only pump. I have no other reason do so other than the benefits mentioned before. I have had them in service for more than five years without a single incident. I could use a mechanical pump but the electric pump can be mounted in a variety of places and gives a lot of room behind the radiator. If no other benefit over the mechanical pump it sure looks cool. No play on words here :-) Anyone needing to change a faulty mechanical pump should explore the benefits of an electric pump, especially those who want to do minimum changes to their car. Dann BCC |
| Dann Wade |
| How about some more info Dann? Like what pumps you use maybe? Naturally we'd expect a V8 to need a bigger one, but how about the prices? Are they beginning to become competitive with OEM? Jim |
| Jim Blackwood |
| Jim, We are a slowly becoming a dealer for Meziere. They have pumps available for 215 Buick/ Rover series which is a direct change. They have pumps for Ford, Mopar, GM and others. I will send you an email with price if you'll inquire at my email address for any vehicle model that you would be interested in. Business ethics involved here. I don't think they will be competitive with OEM prices anytime soon. The are in the 3 digit category. |
| Dann Wade |
| Here is a thought. If I look at any new car it looks like there is no way air can get out of the engine bay. So what are they doing different that we seem to be missing? I know they run at a little higher temp but the cars dont over heat in traffic. |
| Steve Nightingale |
| An increase in horsepower in a car that I can burn rubber in five gears does not interest me. An increase in cooling in a car that I can’t idle for more than a couple of minutes does interest me. If the electric water pump improves cooling at idle because it moves a greater volume of coolant at low engine speeds then the same result can be had by overdriving the water pump pulley. Again the loss in power would not hurt anything. If an electric water pump can be mounted so as to allow better airflow after exiting the radiator then it could be worth trying. As it is I have only about a half inch of clearance between my radiator and my mechanical water pump and that is the Buick V6 pump that was perhaps an inch shorter than the 215 water pump. What I’d really like is enough room in there to use a ducted puller fan. Perhaps a remote electric water pump would make that possible. I found no pictures or dimensions one the web site offering an electric water pump for the Buick. Does anybody know how it fits and how big it is? |
| George Champion |
| Steve - good point - and the factory car with bogstandard equpment does not overheat either - provided it is in good condition. If you lose a fan, your radiator is beginning to lose some of its vanes or the cap spring is tired, the engine is sludged up or the timing out - then you could be in trouble. I know the electric pumps are effective but I do question whether the cost is really justified. |
| Roger |
| George, In theory its very possible that if you chose the wrong size smaller pulley to turn the water pump faster at low speed or rpm you might very well straighten out the fan blades at higher speed. With this constant flexing, in a period of time, the material in the blades could fatigue and launch them off the hub. If the cooling system incorporated an electric fan it would of course solve the launching problem, but at high speed or at higher rpm it's very possible that cavitation could occur and serious steam pockets and back pressure and/or coolant lock might cause the engine to badly overheat and damaged would be probable. The increased load from the pump at idle could also add to an already over heating problem. See above thread for electric pump clearance dimensions. "You will need 5 13/16" clearance between the water pump body at the pump gasket and any other object in front of the electric pump." Dann BCC |
| Dann Wade |
| Roger, I think the electric pump would be worthy in a worse case scenario, not necessarily an MGB application, new conversion, or a for those who like innovation or trick set ups. They work so it isn't like it would be experimental. The particular pump we are speaking of would cost about 350.00 US. Other remote pumps probably less. Thanks for you input. Dann BCC CC |
| Dann Wade |
| Yes, Dann is correct in stating that the a higher speed pump will cause cavitation, but there are ways to stop the cavitation on a water pump by triming every other vane of the impeler. good for racing only. Do not do this on a street driven vehicle. From my own experience in controling heat at low and high speed. The best way to control the heat is in two areas, one is the radiator flow, and the second evacuating hot air from the engine bay. If your cooling system works at speed, then evacuating the hot air is in order. A bigger electric fan with higher speed and a shroud to even the flow through the radiator, this will bring cooler denser air to the engine bay. The hot air must now exit, difficult in a MG, this is what I have done and it works for me. At the rear of the hood on each side, trim the lip of the hood about 6 inches, then trim the lip on the fender line an equal amount, this area now has being coverted into a vent. Do not trim flush leave about an 1/8 of an inch to keep water out. With a fast turning fan bringing air into the engine bay you can actually feel the hot air comming out through the fender-hood gap. Same can be extended to the rear of the hood if really needed. This will help to maintain an even flow of air in the engine bay, and will maintain the stock appearance. Will bring tempures down, but is not a fix to a badly design cooling system. A new radiator with the new design core, more rows, good flow, low temp thermostat,good fan elctric and mechanical, good shoruding around both fans, or at least the electric fan, good flow of air in the engine bay, and a good radiator cap with at least 14 lb or more of pressure. A good example of a good cooling system is early Firebird Trans Am, late model Camaros and C4-C5 Corvettes. No front opening for the radiator, air is suck from the botton via a spoiler, two huge electric fans and a helper fan that comes in at higher temps, hood vents on the Firebird, and scape openings at the rear of the hood on the others with a 17 lb cap and stock chevy pump on the early V8's. These engines are in a very cramp engine bay. |
| Bill Guzman |
| Interesting info Bill, thanks for the input. Dann |
| Dann Wade |
| Surely ,when the car is stationary & relies soley on the fans for cooling, it will take longer for the radiator to cool than with the assistance of ram air. Therefore the coolant needs to remain longer in the radiator as governed by the slow rotating pump. The addition of a fast flowing pump would create the opposite effect. It would just move hot coolant through the radiator faster & reduce it's chances of cooling. I support "get rid of the hot air" theory. Barrie E |
| Barrie Egerton |
This thread was discussed between 17/10/2003 and 05/11/2003
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