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MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - s2000

Has anyone out there thought of doing a conversion with the s2000 engine? Just the sound of the engine hitting 9000rmp would make it worthwhile i would think. Of course, me being a lowly student, i can only dream of the day that i could afford to do this. Also, the engine would almost surely weigh less than the original 4, and comes with a 6 speed! Anyway, just some food for thought, and wondering what others think.

Alan.
Alan Raddatz

yeah yeah, so i said rmp, lah tee dah
A

Alan,
Leaving the s2000 as it is would be my choice so the chassis brakes and all the other bits match for an overall package.
Then again to each their own.

Peter Thomas

What would be the benefit to using an MGB chassis rather than the OE S2000 chassis? Because it's more handsome??? I would think the S2000 chassis' performance would be much, much, much, much better than the MGB's! I would also think it would be a much more comfortable ride. Am I wrong?
Ted

well, for starters, Honda s2000 -> $35 000.
s2000 drivetrain -> $4500. thats seems like an advantage. Besides, why bother with any conversion then? Surely a 302 mustang would kill an mg, so whats the point there. Same goes for the sbc, 2.8 camaro engines ..............
Alan Raddatz

I think for some of us the question is, what can I bolt MGB body panels onto? Or what can I sculpt to replicate an MGB? Or can I get away with just transferring the emblem and fool myself and others, or ???? For me, I plan on getting one of those flat life-size cardboard stand-ups (just like the Ronald Reagan one I remember) except it will be a life-size cardboard photo of my '70 GT. Then I plan on taping it to old Pinto. Works for me.
Tom Lang

Hey hey now, easy does it on the 302 MGB now!!! gettin a bit personally there!!

Alan, I think what peter and ted are saying is there is a point at which you have to say why. I love miata's, and if I ever do another car I might think about a V6 miata. More modern handling and comfort, plus extra power.

That S2000 engine is probably great, but does $4500 included EVERYTHING, ECU, harness, etc etc.. Then add in the conversion stuff. It does add up and you are left putting it into (albiet a great chassis) 30 year old enginneering and chassis. I think waht makes most people wonder is that it is still a 4cyl, and while more power than the stocker, you are limited in what it can put out, which begs why go through all the trouble of the conversion..

That said, I bet it would be an incredible car, and I can hear that motor winding out myself! Keep me posted on what you do..
Larry Embrey

Limited because its a 4 cyl? An MGB with an s2000 engine would get to 60, stop, rev a few times, and get to 60 again before most conversions done with a rover v8. Also, a good t5 tranny is gonna cost at least 500, a rebuilt v8, no matter what you choose, will be ~1500-2000, and then you have to cut everything, change springs, etc etc. But anyways, i didnt want to start fire with this. Sure some people feel it a bit too much, but give me a break. Sure it may cost less for others, but i doubt that an extra 1000 or 2 would really kill some of the people who spend so much on anything else. Either way, id take an mg with an s2000 any day over a rover v8.

Also, I love the 302, because of circumstnace i did mine with a 305 sbc, but i'd want a 302 any day before thinking about a rover. (OK so maybe this last part does inspire a little flame.)

Lastly, whats the point of mentioning that you'd rather leave the s2000 as it is? Of course you would. How many of you go out and buy new mustangs or whatever rover tripe and pull out the engine? Doesnt make sense, it'd obviously be a wrecked one like anything else.
Alan Raddatz

Since when is this whole thing about what's prudent or what's best? Isn't Ted putting a sbc in a series I jag e-type? I'm sure a corvette is a MUCH better chassis in standard form for that motor then an old jag is. Larry has a 302 in his mgb. I'm sure a mustang is a MUCH better chassis in standard form to hold that motor. I've got a 3.5L V8 in my MGB, and I'm sure the truck it came from was MUCH better suited in standard form for the motor then my car. And Jim in Kentucky.... I'm not even going to finish that sentence....

My point: we're all modifying our cars to make best use of these motors so why is that any different for the S2000 driveline?

Honda S2000's have a curb weight of 2810 lbs. A wheel base that is only 3.5" longer then an mgb they're track is about a foot wider then an mgb, and their overall length is about a foot more then an mgb. The motor has 240 hp at 8300 rpm and 153 lb-ft of torque at 7500 rpm's. Redline is 9000 rpm's. 0-60 time is 5.6 seconds, and quarter mile time is 14.3 seconds. Mgb's would have atleast a 500 lb weight advantage, but give up a little on the track, and the wheelbase. I'm willing to bet a good posi rear end, traction bars, and some chassis strengthening similar to that of what 4.6L V8 mgb owners do, would stiffen things up enough to make this 4 cylinder worth while. If that wasn't enough, you can add a supercharger to the s2000 motor which is good for 108 more horsepower and 61 lb-ft of torque at 8 psi. That's 350 horsepower out of a 4 cylinder motor.....

So lets look at this again. Maybe it's not so foolish afterall.

Justin
Justin

Actually, Justin, I think your reasoning's pretty sound. On considering it, I disagree with my former sentiments and I tend to agree w/yours.

BTW, how much does an S2000 motor weigh? ... can't be much!
Ted

I just love hooking up against those unsuspecting s2000 and BMW M3 roadsters. They never knew what hit them. And that is from one of those old time American Oldsmobile 215's, with just a little shot of Nitrous!
Michael S. Domanowski

...and another point,
Honda drivetrain=great reliability, 6-speed silky smooth tranny, and tons of upgrade parts available.
IIRC, there are a couple of s2000's currently running the 1/4 mile in the mid-to-low 10 second range on the import drag circuit.
I would say this combination MGB+Honda drivetrain could be our version of the MGB+Cosworth built by Frontline.

Hmmm......now thats got me thinkin'.....MGC+BMW M3 300+HP inline 6....or better yet 74 Midget+S2000 drivetrain....time to start taking measurements :)

Tad
69 MGC GT
74 RWA Midget
Tad R.

tad and others, i have a mini cooper with a j spec vtec dohc engine and 5 speed in it, it is scary fast and i have not even began to tap the ptential of this set up, why go to the s2000, why not the 6 cylinder vtec motor, spendy to get, the only problem is the mgb does not have any rear windows for the stickers, proably should stick with the bgt i reckon, jim
jim m

Jim,

Is it just a rumour that the Honda engines other than the S2000 spin anti-clockwise rather than clockwise when viewed from the pulley belt end?
George B.

Jim,
The ricers would flip out if they saw an MGBGT with an S2000 motor and the now-required "Type-R" badge on the back and grill :) We could tell em it really is from Japan cause most of the probably have no idea what an MG is!!! I see hours of inane fun and jokes at their expense and sheer joy at blowing their doors off with the B. :) (Of course I personally couldn't bring mysely to desicrate an LBC with the phoney badging....but the mechanicals, well, that's a whole different story.
BTW, just how hairy a ride is that Mini Cooper? It sounds like a blast. I am picturing a go-kart with a V8 that handles like its on rails once sorted out!!! I assume that it's a "real" mini since you didn't spell it-M I N I.

Tad
Tad R.

George:
No rumor, but not completely true. My 2.7L V6 accord spins anti-clockwise. but the new 3.0L and larger accord V6's spin clockwise. Every Honda 4 cylinder I've seen spins clockwise as well.

Justin
Justin

Michael, im curious, just how much power is the nitrous adding, and just how much is that motor tricked out? Not that i want to discredit you or anything, but not many of us have occasion to just happen to line up beside an s2000 or new m3 roadster. Myself, ive only ever seen one m3 roadster in my life. With an m3 doing 0-60 in 4.8 and a 1/4 mile in 13.3, you'd have to have a large shot of nitrous, and some large sticky tires on the back of your mg. Perhaps im wrong, or perhaps your dreaming, or maybe it was a civic and a 318.

Alan.
Alan Raddatz

What transmission could be used on a vtec? Other than the S2000, Honda isn't famous for north/south oriented engines.
George B.

To Alan
there is no discrediting a v8 MG.Some good upgrades to even a rover v8 will produce times in the 13's in the quarter.
I know because my MG roadster is a 3.5, fully balanced & blueprinted with Haltech Fuel Injection and it did high 13's regularly (measured by a Gtech unit)
Nothing fancy there mate
just smart engine work

Regards

Steve
steve

Well, certainly i accept that if you put enough money into an engine, it will produce a lot of power. What i dont accept however, is that an MG with a 215 would ever beat a new M3. Also, 13.8-13.9 is a long ways off from 13.3. Also, i see specs on MG's with 300+ hp motors doing the 1/4 mile in ~13.72. How much hp is your 3.5 making now?

Alan.
Alan Raddatz

Alan, ever heard that old addage "It's not the size that counts, it's how you use it." I think that can hold true to some extent in this case. Proper chassis supports, and suspension, good rear axle transferring that power to the street..... You can do a lot with an mgb. I'm no racing guru, but I bet if you stuck a 300hp motor in an mgb, and did nothing else (suspension, rear end,tires etc) It would perform more poorly then a really properly set up 200-250hp V8. Tires spinning, rear end sliding, and car bouncin around isn't going to do much for a 1/4 mile time.

There's a lot more to this game then just horsepower numbers. I'm learning that more every day, and my goals for my car are starting to respect it.

Keep an open mind about things here, and don't be so belligerant towards others. It won't win over the help and support of others when it's your turn for needing help.

George: S2000 is the only rear wheel drive Honda I've ever seen.

Justin
Justin

Yes, you are completely right that you can do a lot with an MGB, no arguments there or i wouldnt have spent all the time in doing mine. And you are further correct in stating that a 250hp motor in a properly set up car may beat a 300hp motor in one that is not. But, i still tend to agree with my previous sentiments. Maybe i shouldnt have been so harsh, but i've reached the point where im tiring of people saying that "camaros are a light snack", and that M3's never knew what hit them.

I realise that we all take pride in our cars, and what we do with them certainly does improve performance, but too many people think that by placing a small, somewhat powerful v8 in the engine bay turns it into a maclaren. Yes (V8) camaros and mustangs are beatable by a relatively fast MGB conversion, but they are not light snacks, and the only reasont that an M3 wouldnt know what hit it is because the MG would never be in front to be seen.

Allow me to post some examples of extremely fast and well done cars that my buddies own.
1 is a 35 chev hotrod, mustang II suspension, posi rear, tires that make an MGs look like they're from a bicycle, and a 375 horsepower aluminum block 350 mated to a turbo 350 with shift kit. This car also weighs less than an original vw Beetle. It does the 1/4 mile in 13.3. Allow me to assume that most MG conversions would not hold a candle to this car.

The 2nd is a 1988 chevy s10, frame strenghtened, weight reduced, posi rear, 400hp blown motor. 1/4 mile in 13.6. Again, most MG's wouldnt beat it. Mine with 320hp doesnt. Now, if i tubbed the rear, connected the frame, and put tighter suspension all around, maybe it would, but then its a whole new ballgame, not just simply a "old american 215", or some "smart engine work".

So certainly high 13's are possible, but in the excitement of making a fast car, dont forget that there are many out there that are faster still, such as an m3, and dont pretend that if bolt a cheap bottle up to an engine that it is comparable to something that can match the performance on pump gas all day long.

Sincerely, Belligerant



Alan Raddatz

Talk is cheap, see you all in Townsend Tn in May!
Michael S. Domanowski

Just going back to non V8's this would make a lot of V8's take a second look.

http://www.fallaclassics.co.uk/project_cosworth.htm

With IRS and coil over front + the developing Rover 5.2
should make a quick 1/4 mile for a B.

Paul
Paul

With Wildcat heads I hear normal aspirated 6.0 Rover V8's have a design power output of between 550 and 600 bhp. See www.espritv8.net/id34.htm. Indeed, with IRS and coilover front... And some strengthening... Should make a quick time. There are lots of engines you can stick in a B. I like it when people go for the not-so-obvious.

Frank
Frank de Groot

Wow, 6 litres in a Rover? What's the bore & stroke? The block walls must be like aluminum foil when they're done!!! Still I just can't fathom 600bhp. I mean it's danged hard to get that out of a normally aspirated built SBC (i.e., you're up in NASCAR territory -- they sure's hell ain't runnin' Rovers!)
Ted

Here you go, 0-150 in 12.9 seconds, 10.1 1/4 mile. http://www.hennesseymotorsports.com/cgi/store/commerce.cgi?page=v18.html&cart_id=5615162_32058
Seems you can always find something that will go faster.
I also know the '69 SS 396 Camaro and the '70 Hemi Cuda would never be on the light snack list for for an MGB-V8, but you just do what you can.

Jim
Jim Blackwood

DAMN!!!!!! that is fast! Holy cow.
Ted

and CHEAP too!!!! only $55,000 US dollars.
Dan Masters

http://www.robinson-race-cars.co.uk/

Not much detail on site yet but Andy was at Goodwood Festival of Speed with 2000bhp drag car (6-7secs).

Frank did you notice a Mallory dizzy was for sale on esprit site.

Paul
Paul

This may be a little out of date (1997) being the latest but it is interesting.

http://members.tripod.com/mork_04/50.htm
Michael S. Domanowski

Alan
i dont have an exact figure of HP but i had an estimate from the guys who built my engine and they quoted above 250 HP.
The engine work was done properlym lightened flywheel
5 speed box, decent rubber and LSD with some suspension tweaks
maybe its the cleaner air here in Australia
Yes your right high 13's is more than low 13's but it stil is impressive.
And speaking of M3's in a short traffic lights run, I kept up with an M3 and beleive me he was trying
Of course the M3's higher top speed and handling would leave the MG in its wake, it does raise the eyebrows of a suit cladded M3 w*nker.
Regards
steve

Alan,

The times you list for your friends' cars seem a little slow for the amount of work you say has been performed. I work at a transmission shop and have personally seen some of the Camaro and Firebirds that I have worked on turn high 11's in the quarter mile. One of my very good customers owns a '94 Camaro with a bone stock LT1 (stock in that the engine has had no internal work done, no cam upgrade, roller rockers, head work, etc...). He has long tube headers, MSD-6AL, timming retard, 4L60E transmission (shift kit, super servo,etc...) AND A 175hp SHOT OF NITROUS! That's it. Car runs mid. 13's on the motor and high 11's on the bottle. Can't see why you don't think a 215 with slight work in a car that weighs next to nothing wouldn't be quicker than an M3, especially on the bottle.
Chris Mowris

Tad R., Orlando, FL
...and another point,
Honda drivetrain=great reliability, 6-speed silky smooth tranny, and tons of upgrade parts available.
IIRC, there are a couple of s2000's currently running the 1/4 mile in the mid-to-low 10 second range on the import drag circuit.
I would say this combination MGB+Honda drivetrain could be our version of the MGB+Cosworth built by Frontline.

Hmmm......now thats got me thinkin'.....MGC+BMW M3 300+HP inline 6....or better yet 74 Midget+S2000 drivetrain....time to start taking measurements :)


Tad don't ne a ricer any car with enough money thrown at it will run 10's 1/4 miles. Also who in the heck wants to drive a car that you need to rev the crap out of to get the magic 240hp mark. Go buy yourself Honda Civic put type R strickers all over it and be happy.
Someone in the land!

Yeah, thats gotta suck, running a car through the turns, sitting around 8000 rpm, making 240hp. I think that's every car guys worst nightmare. He's right Tad, go but an old 215, you wont be making anywhere near the power, but at least you wont have to listen to that pesky thing rev all over the place. I just pray that god will give all those indy car drivers the strength to face another day.
Alan Raddatz

hey alan,
what kind of car do you have? i thought you mentioned an MGB, just wondering.
jake

1973 MGB with 305 sbc. Dont get me wrong, i love the sound and amazing torque of the v8. I just think that the s2000 would also provide an amazing powerplant for the B as well.
Alan Raddatz

Alan Raddatz, ON
Yeah, thats gotta suck, running a car through the turns, sitting around 8000 rpm, making 240hp. I think that's every car guys worst nightmare. He's right Tad, go but an old 215, you wont be making anywhere near the power, but at least you wont have to listen to that pesky thing rev all over the place. I just pray that god will give all those indy car drivers the strength to face another day.


So the car will spend most of its time on the track? That fine unfortunitly I can not see running a car on the streets up to 8 plus just to make some power. Why don't you just have that SBC built and be done with it. I do not recall mentioning anything about a 215 being the greatest engine on earth or did I.
Someone in you land!

I was unaware that the only place that turns exist are on a race track. In that case, somebody should really have a talk with the road crews around here cause they've really messed up in a lot of different places. Also, whats wrong with revving up to 8000? "Just to make some power" is an understatement as well, reving in the lower ranges will still make as much hp or more than an original 215. I wish that somehow i could get my 305 to rev up that high without making it unstreatable. Thats the whole reason that the s2000 engine has gained so much fame. And, the sbc is built, it is over with. I didnt realize that this forum only allowed for the possibilty of one conversion in ones life. And you're right, you didnt say anything about the 215 being the greatest, but enough people think that the 215 is the only way to go.
Alan Raddatz

Well Alan I guess I do not want you on the public roads! Any assclown that drive a car around running it out to 8-9,000 rpms in the gears on public streets and around corners should be have their license revoked. Not only am I sure that it is illegal to accelerate fast but to drive over the speed limit by a crap load so you can enjoy the 9000 rpms in 3-6th gear. Lets face it unless you are out dogging the piss out of this engine at every stop light and flying around curvy back road (in which case you could kill someone for driving stupidly) then their is no need for it. Toques is what your drive not the magic 9000 rpm hp.

9000 rpm + public roads = idiot!


I will not comment anymore on your remarks you do not get the point and appear to be an irrational immature individual.


Good luck and cheers to all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Someone for you land!

From the mere irrational to the rediculous. Yeah, you're right, to drive a car at high rpm, you have to be reving at 8000 rpm in 6th gear, forget going through the turns in 2nd and coming out in 3rd. I bet thats what everyone does with an s2000, all they do is drive around all day at through the turns at 8000rpm in 6th, doing well over 200km/h. You're a god damned moron. What you may do in a turn at 4000rpm in 3rd is what an s2000 could do at 6000in 2nd. OH GOD NO, THAT ASSCLOWN IS BREAKING THE 4000RPM law, someone call the cops before some dumbass like yourself gets all flustered. Apparently, to add to your stupid equations, then we must assume that

9000rpm + 2nd gear = spinning wildly all over the road. Get some sense, I've seen motorcycles going through turns with screaming engines but in low gears, doing just fine as far as the speed limit. Yes, there are idiots with bikes that do 250 all the time, but guess what, i can do 210 in my audi at (gasp), 5000rpm! Jesus christ, it wasnt even at 9000rpm! Well then, using this recent information, everyone should have to do conversions with cvt's and speed limiters.
Alan Raddatz

I was reading this thread and forgot what the original question was.
Back to the bar, drinks are on me!
Stan Williams

Alan
please dont mock the rover v8, with some minor work, 250Hp is achieved easily.
0ld it may be but it is still one of the more popular motors being put into MGB's and other British sports cars and there is so much information out there too.
It isnt the only way to go ,no one is saying that just dont give it crap it has served well.
You have an idea of putting the s2000 motor into your B,
Just go and buy the s2000 and keep it as your alternative to the MG.
steve

OK, good suggestion Steve, a $50,000 investment into a third car is NO problem for a 20 yr old university student. I'll get right on that one.
Alan Raddatz

I have a novel thought. Alan, since you already have a SBC in your car, why not just buy a 383 SBC crate motor and be done with it? That's basically a race engine, should be more power than you can put to the ground in any gear at any speed. Or if it's revs you want, go with a 3" stroke, roller rockers and roller cam, and rev the piss out of it. Back in the early 70's it was possible to hit 11 grand with a well built 302 SBC, so why not go for it? No substitute for cubic inches ya know. (Now why was it you built a 305? Long stroke/small bore)
Jim
Jim Blackwood

holy smokes! the guy just asked a question! i've wondered about an s2000 engine in an mgb too. my brother has an s2000 and you don't have to drive like an ass to reach the car's power potential. at least drive the care before you talk smack about it. also, i drive an e46 m3 right now. i'd be surprised if a 300+ hp mgb wasn't faster than a 3000-3400# car with 333 hp.
jeff

actually I was thinking about the S2000 powerplant in my MIDGET not a B. I don't have a B and never said that I did. I do have a CGT and made the reamrk about dump the M3 lump into it. However, there were too few C's built to muck up mine....I find it funny that somebody would say if you want an s2000 engine why not buy an s2000 but has no problem with the conversion if its a rover. what's the difference? either way its not original.....To each his own.

Tad
Tad R.

The M3 lump in a C would be pretty stonkin', methinks! OK, I know there aren't that many Cs in the world and they're classics. But only a mother could love that C motor. It would be a little wierd to have a metric motor in an SAE car but much wierder things happen every day ... I was actually thinking about the M3 setup for my XKE conversion but I've decided to behave like a good ol' boy and put a SBC V8 in there. I'm looking for more of that street rod, stump-pullin' torque feeling. My understanding, BTW, is that the M3 motor and gearbox aren't that hard to find, as yuppies get a coupla beers in 'em and wrap them around trees regularly!
Ted

This thread was discussed between 09/12/2002 and 13/12/2002

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