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MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - Wilwood Brakes

I have been getting several calls asking about the Moss Motors brake kit. I have been asked if they are Classic Conversions. No! they are not.
Moss Motors had both of my brake kits for two weeks. NOW they have a brake kit. Kelvin Dodd claims that their kit is different and needs a special machine rotor to fit on the stock wheel; ours uses the stock rotor and are a direct replacement and fit perfectly on the stock wheel and Minilite 14". The prototypes needed some ajustments. (First set, which are the sets that Moss Motors had) When Kelvin was notified that we had our brake kit in production, his reply was that they were not interested.
It's sad, we are friends and belong to the same organizations, CCBCC, BMC and BMTA British Motor Trade Ass, same as XK's Unlimited, which are great suporters of BMTA members. We could have worked together to create a better product to serve all of you better, which is the intent of BMTA. Now all we have is a very small business,Classic Conversions Eng. Vs a large business, Moss Motors.
I like to say that we need some guiding ethics in our organization, BMTA.
Perhaps Moss Motors should have been honest and said that they did not like my brake kits, and they would be working on one of their own and as a courtesy show me their brake kit to asure me that they did not copy mine. Or we could have worked together to create a better product.
As of today, I have not heard from anyone from Moss, I left a message on their answering service (Dec 22 2 pm) I gess they were out to lunch. Moss has not returned my phone call.

I gave my product to Moss Motors in good faith.
For the record, my brake kits have been on the market for over a year.
I will beat Moss Motors prices on any brake kit for an MGB.
Bill Guzman

Bill, I'm sorry to hear that you've been treated this way, although we've never met, we've talked on the phone and in those conversations I've grow to trust you. But, I suppose the almighty dollar is more important to some. I too, am trying to build a small business based on the MG following, producing products that are not available anywhere else, namely 302 headers and a three link rear suspension system that is under development. I'm sure everyone understands that our time and money is used for development, prototypes and jigs to bring new products to the market, its disturbing when designs are copied without permission.

Steve Carrick
Coyote Engineering LLC
Steve Carrick

I think this is common throughout many industries. In 2000 a good friend developed a very efficient and high quality rod splitting fixture to avoid damage to the big end of connecting rods when seperating them after installing new rod bolts and doing machine work. This tool is very well built, powder coated and machined to close tolerances. He builds them in his small shop and the tool has been sold through Goodson Tools and Supplies in MN since 2001. In 2003, Crower Cams began marketing a knockoff. The only obvious difference is in the style of the handwheel used to operate the fixture.

http://www.goodson.com/g5-bin/client.cgi?G5genie=1;G5button=1&item=P5850
Phil O

Please read my statement carefully, I am not saying that they did copy my kit directly.

" Kelvin Dodd claims that their kit is different and needs a special machine rotor to fit on the stock wheel" Also I wrote:
"as a courtesy show me their brake kit to asure me that they did not copy mine"

It's that simple.

Bill Guzman

Bill

I share your concerns.

Can you set up agents or distributors where MGB's are common? Those of us who subscribe to this board may be able to help with suggestions.
Nigel J S Steward

You pinned them in a corner Bill. They knew if they copied yours verbatim that there would be some serious ramifications. They probably also knew that keeping a stock rotor would mean using a lot of the same methods that you used, thus putting them into "copying territory."

Look at the plus, you can market your product as "superior to Moss because you don't need a special rotor."

All the more reason to avoid moss motors.

Between the motor/trans swaps, the rear axles, Dan Masters wiring harness, and all the suspension and brake products now available out there, it's not hard to discount the British suppliers all together. What do we need them for? Body panels and minor trim pieces...


Justin
Justin

I'm sorry for your frustration Bill. As a person who loves to fabricate my own parts, I truly admire those like you who can engineer and manufacture the high quality parts you have made available. Having said that, I am also grateful that the big outfits exist. We're lucky to have all the body and trim pieces readily available for our cars. I'm sure Moss is making money or they wouldn't exist, so it's not like they're doing us a favor or anything. I'm just glad they are a phone call away when I need something. Bill, I hope you continue to have success with your parts and continue to develop more. If I ever find the extra funds to upgrade my brakes you'll be getting a call.

Ryan Reis
Ryan Reis

"...and a three link rear suspension system that is under development."

Hey now, that was my idea, Steve! :)

Seriously, glad to see someone do something with it besides just thinking about it. I expect a deep discount, though. ;)
Carl Floyd

As a small business owner I sympothize. All too often larger businesses prey on smaller ones that don't know the ins and outs of law, or don't have the resources to defend themselves.

I've often read and enjoyed your posts, but I must say that I find that you and others often take advantage of this board and it's members. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see you listed as a paying advertiser of this board, yet you often try to sell your products here. Now you are bashing Moss Motors for stealing your idea and unknowingly biasing people away from Moss Motors. However bad you feel you have been duped by them is between you and them. It is not our concern how poorly you handled your business transactions. Doing business on good faith and a handshake only leaves you legally defenseless.
You might respond that you are only posting here because alot of people are calling your business regarding your brake kits and Moss Motors. Sorry, but that's part of doing business. Find other ways of addressing the problem. I very rarely see any of the major advertisers directly push their products. If they post here, it is often about a specific concern. I've also never seen them start a thread bashing another business. That is simply not professional.
I apologize if I'm completely off base but felt I compelled to respond to your post.
Joaquin

Most of the time I am on the other boards as I don't have a V8 and don't plan to convert my 67B. However, I have looked at Bill's site many times in the past and notice that he has several very nice products. One point about his brake kit that should be noted is that he can provide the front brake kit with a five bolt pattern. That would be very helpful for a V8 or V6 conversion that wanted to use a Ford or other rear axle. It would also open up a wider range of wheels that could be used.
Jim Lema

This is to set the record straight. I understand Bill's unhappiness, but it is hubris to believe that the concept of a Wilwood Alloy Caliper conversion is one person's property.

Moss Europe and other vendors have been selling Wilwood conversion kits for over 10 years.

Moss US has had a brake conversion on the R & D list since Wilwood introduced the DynaPro dust seal type alloy caliper over 2 years ago. A sealed caliper was one of the design requirements for a Moss US kit, to increase longevity. This caliper is totally different from the lug type pictured on Bill's website and uses a unique radial mounting adapter. We have had experience with this caliper as it is used in the Wilwood supplied BMW Mini kit which we currently stock.

If Bill's kit met my very specific requirements we would have purchased it, rather than spending the R&D time and inventory overhead to build our own.

Bill's brackets as presented to Moss interfered with the lower A Arms and would not allow the fitment of either the original Rostyle wheel or 14" Minataur, or the 15" Minataur on the vented version. Bill was shown these problems and the parts returned.

No measurements, drawings or photographs were made of Bill's brackets.

All development work on the Moss kit was done by Rusty Browning who was hired on March 1st, 2004. He had no prior knowledge of Bill's kit. Rusty's previous employer was Stop Tech brakes, a brake upgrade speciality company.

The design specifications for the first kit were very stringent, as this kit is intended to be a simple bolt on with no surprises. The caliper would be the DynaPro sealed caliper, and the kit must fit under the original Rostyle wheel and the 14" Minataur wheel we offer. To achieve adequate safety clearance with the larger DynaPro caliper a slightly modified brake rotor was specified.

The Moss kit includes Wilwood DynaPro calipers with aluminium pistons and rubber dust seals. Radial mounting adapters. Goodridge DOT approved stainless steel brake hoses and cross-drilled/slotted brake rotors. There is not one part in common with Bill's kit.

As far as pricing goes. The Wilwood DynaPro caliper mfr. sugg. retail is $269.25 per caliper. The ones included in Bill's kit are $142.00 per caliper.

To sum up, all that is represented is not real. I'm sorry that Bill did not believe me when I told him over the phone before xmas that we had not copied his kit. Many vendors have trusted us with their products and it is extremely unusual for designs to be stolen. Besides being un-ethical, it is usually un-economical to pursue such a practice.
I continue to offer my hand in friendship to Mr. Guzman and suggest that his Wilwood conversion kits do offer good value for money for budget minded applications where corrosion is not a problem.

The Moss kit was designed to meet higher levels of design considerations including long term street use, and as such, includes different components and is at a higher price point.

Now, I'd like to get back to previous programming already in progress.

Kelvin Dodd
Moss Motors US.




KJ Dodd

interesting end to the year thread, not to try and stir the pot but just for my information kelvin the time line you list leaves me some questions? first, bills kit has only been out for a year or so, i believe i bought one of the first ones. if you have had this fellow doing r&d since last march 1st why did you bother to get one of bills kits at such a late date? i am no expert on corporate protocol when it comes to proprietary design but did you tell bill what your intent was when you got the kits from him? from the way it sounds it seems like you just wanted to see his to justify why yours was better and not to distribute his. hard to tell without knowing the full conversation. either way it seems sad because i know you two were/are friends. and as for ideas, i remember being a young man in the 60's and being forced to help work on my fathers 1967 mgb along with my brother, steping back and looking at the sad engine bay and saying "wow dad, the motor from your partners mustang would look pretty cool in there" any of you 302 guys can send that royalty check anytime, jim
james madson

Why do MGV6 guys have such big chips on their shoulders ?
Must be because they are trying to make up for two missing cylinders...........

Happy Holidays !

WK
Wayne Kerr

good point wayne, it must be because we fall short on the finacial end, i could not afford to go for the other "two" cylinders as i cannot afford the required trailer that one needs with them.







read!!! tongue firmly planted in cheek!!!

have a safe and happy new year, jim
james madson

LOL:

Happy new year guys. I think Wayne cut to the chase, since I'm firmly planted in the MGB V8 camp, with a bunchof BOPs sitting in my workshop.

Kelvin.
KJ Dodd

I am confuse! Is bill saying that his idea was taken?
If Moss had wilwood brakes for 10 years, why are they now designing one for US, what is wrong with the one from uk? I think wilwood brakes are made here in the US are they?
Larry

This thread was discussed between 29/12/2004 and 31/12/2004

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