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MG MGB Technical - CO2

I have found blogs on CO2 levels, but can't find one that gives the factory spec.
It seems that, in Portugal at least, the EU rule on importing a car includes a 'tax' on the CO2 level and that level is the one (originally or later) specified by the manufacturer and has nothing to do with the actual CO2 level on the car in question.
Mine is an MGB GT 1976 completely standard version I believe.
Anyone know what the 'official' CO2 level is or can give me any info on this importing issue?
Marcel
M. de Bie

Hi, if you have an 18V engine as I do in my 1976 car then the exhaust CO2 at idle (750 RPM) should be between 3 and 4.5% CO according to the workshop manual available here:

http://www.geomatique-liege.be/MGJP/DocumentsPDF/MGB_Workshop_Manual.pdf

Hope this helps you.

Regards Andy
Andy Robinson

Hi Andy,
many thanks for your info (and a greatly appreciated copy of the manual). I looks like my model has 3% CO. However, what they require here in Portugal (and elsewhere in the EU) these days is the CO2 level and expressed in mg/km - and also very accurately. For example to import the car with 180gr/km of CO2 would cost €2871 on taxes, whilst only 20gr more would cost a whopping € 4004 !!!
Clearly the EU is not aiming to promote the cross border shipment of 'dirty' cars - even if they are lovely old classics.
M. de Bie

the relevant copy of the Driver's Handbook would give you the range of CO (carbon monoxide) at idle which I'd imagine wouldn't be a lot better than the 3-4.5% range of earlier cars

I've never seen any other figures given unless the California cars are more exact and detailed

I think I'd put up another thread called something like 'Anyone imported a B into Portugal' as I think another poster from Portugal sometimes posts here plus there might be non-posters that still read the threads and posts that live in from Portugal
Nigel Atkins

Marcel,
I think Nigel's advice is quite right - there are several versions of the 18V engine and some have a CO reading of 2.5%. I would talk first - to a testing station and see what their charts tell them for the type of car. In the real world, your unleaded head may produce quite different readings - which might be good (or not).
Roger W

Hi Nigel and Roger,
Thanks for your advice!
I actually had the car tested a couple of years ago and the value was 2.6% where the max pass limit is 3.5%. However, all those figures are for CO and not CO2.

Incidentally, I used CO2 as the thread header because when you talk to people about importing cars in europe then "CO2" is the absolute buzz word - actually more of a swear word, because it is that value which is by far the highest import tax component. That said, another post is a good advice.
Thanks again gentlemen!
Marcel
M. de Bie

Marcel,
the €2871 is just over ten years worth of our current annual 'road tax' rate so yours might not be as bad as it first seems as 10 years soon passes

here for a pre-March 2001 cars such as a MGB the figures are very straight forward but post that date things fluctuate more and new cars bought after April 2010 pay extra for the first year too - http://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables


Nigel Atkins

Marcel,

I understand that you are talking about CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) and not CO (Carbon Monoxide). I suspect that the factory never published such figures for the MGB because CO2 was not generally of concern when the cars were built.

So, assuming there is some legal way to import it, I would think the rules should have some way to address cars manufactured before such standards were issued by the manufacturer.

Furthermore, as far as I know, brand new cars have no CO2 controls on them. So, the CO2 produced is a function of how much fuel it uses, and how much air it takes in, and how completely it burns the fuel (i.e. how well it combines the carbon in the fuel with the oxygen in the air). If it burns it very well, the carbon content of the hydrocarbon fuel will all turn to CO2 and none of it will be CO. I believe part of a modern car's emission system is designed to turn remaining CO into CO2.

So, an older car, which puts out more CO than a modern car, probably puts out less CO2 per gallon than the modern car.

If fuel mileage figures were stated by the factory in 1976, the CO2 emissions could be calculated based on that as long as you know what the correct hydrogen to carbon ratio is for the fuel you normally have available. If you want to get fancy, you could subtract out the part that is CO.

I realize that this does not answer your question, but it may give you another way to look for the answer.

Charley
C R Huff

Hi Charley,
In Europe CO2 is the buzz word (not CO), so also new cars are taxed based on their CO2 output. Taxed both at the time of importing/selling the new car and also the yearly tax is based largely on CO2 output.
Marcel


Hi Nigel,
Good point! I believe that cars over 30 years are actually tax exempt in Portugal, but in any case the yearly tax in very low compaired to the UK.
Unfortunately, that is not the case when importing.
In fact above 225 gr/Km the 'import tax' for CO2 will be several times the value of the car (so I'm hoping the number is somewhat lower ;))
Marcel
M. de Bie

225g/km equates to about 29 miles per UK gallon.

Look at any car advert ... mpg x CO2 = 6,500 approx (diesels give a higher number, 7000+)

The snag of course is that there are probably no govt figures for an MGB.
Geoff Ev

Thanks Geoff.
It seems that I need a "Certificate of Conformity" on which the CO2 level is shown.
Marcel
M. de Bie

UK MOTs give CO2 as a %. CO2 wasn't an issue back in the day. But presumably the Portugese system has some type of test (that covers kit cars etc) that might produce what you want. i.e. approach it from what the local authorities want as there seems nothing available from the original manufacturers! Perhaps asking owners /clubs for other classic cars in Portugal might produce suggestions.
Michael Beswick

Marcel,

For petrol the CO2 output is about 23.7 gr/km at 1 ltr/100km.
(Diesel 26.50, LPG 17.8, CNG 27.4)

So when an MGB uses about 10 ltr/100km, the CO2 output will be 237 gr/km.

We all know that there are lies, damn lies and the factory CO2 figures, so probably the factory figure for the MGB would now be 7 ltr/100km, which is 165.9 gr/km.

Sources (in Dutch...)
- http://www.autoweek.nl/forum/read.php?19,4353541
- http://www.moly-premium.nl/co2_calculator.html
- http://www.carblogger.nl/autokosten/omrekenen-co2-naar-verbruik/
Willem van der Veer

Thanks Michael,
yes it seems that the international FIVA with its national branches might be worth a shot. I've sent them a message.
All new cars, also in the UK are clasified in CO2mg/km upon which the annual road tax is based. The problem seems to be cars older than about 1991 because indeed CO2 wasn't an issue back then.
Marcel
M. de Bie

All,

Please don't confuse CO% with CO2 gr/km.

A high CO% is an indicator of a rich mixture,
CO2 gr/km is a resultant of burnt fuel.
Willem van der Veer

Hi Willem,
thanks for the info and websites.
Unfortunately, its not what some calculation says it is, or even what it actually is, but simply a number which happens to be on a Certicate of Conformity - and I'm chasing that up. So fingers crossed.

Toch bedankt
Marcel
M. de Bie

Hi Marcel,

I know what you are saying, but I saw it as nice brain exercise.
I'm very curious which number (if any) the Certicate of Conformity gives.

Fijn weekeinde!
Willem van der Veer

Hi Willem,
;)
I'm as curious as you are to which number I finish up with. I'll let you know, then we can both have a laugh at the insanity of the rule.

Groetjes
Marcel
M. de Bie

Tell me about it! My "regular" car costs £425 each year as it has 228 G/Km...The subsequent (UK?) model was 225 G/Km which dropped the annual road tax considerably!
Michael Beswick

I am hoping this link may provide you with what you are looking for it is the UK heritage motor centre who are an organisation dedicated to the enjoyment and long lasting of classic marque cars.

http://www.heritage-motor-centre.co.uk/store/heritage-certificates-and-archive-services/heritage-certificates.html

whilst I do not have one of these myself. the site says that the technical specification sheet includes technical information that you may need when importing a vehicle. In the FAQ, it says that if you use the web enquiry form they will give you an answer free of charge to questions if they can - so you don't have to buy a certificate to get the information although i do not know what kind of proof your authorities require.

Give it a try, nothing to lose, all to gain. I hope it works for you, please let us know.

Graham.
Graham Moore



Going from information from US Energy Information Administration on CO2 emission of fuels and the 27 mpg that I got from my GT .

1 US gallon [ 3.8 litres ] of E10 yields 17.68 lbs of CO2
1 US gallon of non ethanol gasoline yields 19.64 lbs of CO2.

So E10 gas
1 litre yields 2,115 g 2,349 g of CO2
1 Imp gallon 9,602 g 10,664 g of CO2

at 27 mpg 320g/mile 356 g/mile
= 200 g/km 222 g/km

I guess you'd be lucky to get 27 mpg from E10.

Maybe you could get BMH to perform a similar calculation and endorse it for you?

Vic

V Todman

sorry but you don't get that sort of info from the BMIHT

by following the link you can click on the sample certificates and see exactly the information each gives

click on the little sheets below the sample certificate to see them fully enlarged and full details

e.g. - http://www.heritage-motor-centre.co.uk/store/heritage-certificates-and-archive-services/technical-specification-packages/heritage-certificate-and-technical-specification-package.html

Nigel Atkins

If you look at the thumbnails and the enlargements of all the certificates in Graham's link you will see that they are identical and are all the basic full certificate, not an example of each type, which seems strange given that there is a separate link to each.

However the second bullet point only gives an idea of what additional information might be available. You should contact them to find out if it includes what you are after, for those that need additional information.
Paul Hunt

Gents,

as a coincidence, I have just received a BMIHT certificate for my 1976 MGB and have attached the technical data for info. This is a 18V847H engine and the only reference to Exhaust Gas Analysis is 3% CO max at idling speed.

Hope this helps.

Andy Robinson

well done Andy

it's as to be expected, info same as in a similar style of the Workshop Manual

on the BMIHT web page I did click on a few thumbnails and found them to be the same example but that's just how some web sites are

off-topic
interesting to me to see the bhp stated as 84 and bonnet as light alloy
Nigel Atkins

That's CO, not CO2.

I also note it says it the car has an alloy bonnet!
Paul Hunt

This thread was discussed between 08/05/2014 and 23/05/2014

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