MG-Cars.info

Welcome to our Site for MG, Triumph and Austin-Healey Car Information.

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG MGB Technical - Tightening of knock-off wheels

I have just given a friend a helping hand with the Dayton wheels on his Jaguar, and found the following instructions on the www.daytonwirewheel.com website:

"RETIGHTEN CAPS: Lower the car and hammer the caps until there is no movement under the hardest blow of the hammer. After the car has been run 25 miles, be sure to re-check the knock-off cap for tightness. The wheels seat themselves on the adapters after the initial run-in and knock-off caps can be tightened further.
THIS IS IMPORTANT. Knock-off caps must be very tight to prevent wear of the drive teeth. Continue to tighten knock-off caps every 100 miles for the first 500 miles. Then check tightness every few weeks.
WIRE WHEELS should always be checked for tightness of knock-off caps regularly."

I was very surprised to read this. I feel that so much tightening of the Rudge-type center-lock wheels that we have on our MGs will risk stretching of the inner wheel center, loose spokes and finally the wheel coming loose because the wing nut bottoms on the hub.

I keep my hubs and wing nuts well greased, and use only moderate force on the hammer when I put the wheel back on. It always tightens itself nicely, and I never check the nut for tightness.

I noticed that my friendīs Dayton wheels and adaptor hubs did not have splines, but the drive was taken by coarse teeth engaging on the inside of the wheel. Also the wing nut cone worked on the inside of the wheel center, not on the outside as on the MGB.

Could it be that the instructions on the Dayton website applies particularly to this type of wheel?

Tore

Someone put in writing what I have been doing & Telling others to do for 30 years!!!!! I had a wrench made up to tighten the M.G. O/E oct. wheel knock off nut that is 16" long & I POUND on the wrench with a 5 lbs. hammer. I hane NEVER hade a spline strip.
Glenn Towery

I remember reading once that they should be really firmly tightened with the wheel off the ground? Any sense in that?
Steve Postins

I agree with Steve,the nut should be tightened with the wheel OFF the ground.If the hubs are on their correct sides, the motion of the wheel automatically tightens the wheel nut.Barrie E
Barrrie Egerton

Hello,

Knocking on wire wheels off the ground sounds quite logical. This procedure allows to release any constraint in the wire web and results in a much better centering of the wheel onto hub.
Regards.
Renou

I always tighten mine with the wheel off the ground, quite firmly so the tapers are seated, then I tighten fully with the car on the ground. My car is still running the splines that were on it in 1969 when I colected it from the garage. Oh, and grease, lots of grease.
Stan Best

What confuses me in the Dayton instructions is the need to check the tightness of the wing nuts every few weeks. I always thought the whole idea with this system is that the nuts tighten themselves as you drive. That is why I too use lots of grease on the hubs and nuts. If firm manual tightening is what keeps the wheels on the car, I will change to bolt-on wheels this week!

I wonder if the Dayton system works differently, with less self tightening?

You can see the wheels here:

http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Dayton-Wire-Wheels.htm

Tore

Tore

The Dayton instructions are belt and braces and probably to protect themselves from lawsuits. Having said that you see period film where one of the mechanics goes round the wheels giving the spinners a whack each time the car comes into the pits. My spinners are *always* tighter when I remove them than when I fitted them. I have never retightened them or rechecked them in 17 years. I've also never tightened them so that they don't move any further with the hardest blow of the hammer! I'm pretty sure I always tighten them with the wheel off the ground, as it is easier to turn the wheel to keep the spinner in a convenient orientation to hit it with the hammer rather than follow it round (same with the initial tightening of stud nuts FWIW, with final tightening on the ground). As far as grease goes I put some on the splines and tapers when I first fitted them 17 years ago, then cleaned off the excess that had moved to inside the hubs i.e. away from the splines and tapers subsequently. Since then I have only ever wiped my finger on the splines to pick up a smear of grease and transferred it to the tapers each time I have removed and refitted the wheels, and that is all - never applied any more. If there is grease inside the hubs i.e. on the ends of the spokes i.e. excess grease it just works its way to the outside and picks up dirt looking messy.
Paul Hunt

If you clean the inside of the outer end of the hub where the spokes come thru and then coat the area with silicone calk it keeps the grease from comming out thru the spoke holes.
John H

Do I check my street cars for spinner tightness all the time? No, just once in awhile.

The race car? You bet your (or rather my) ass - before every session!
Bill Spohn

I have met someone at our natter who had to buy back and rebuild a TD after one of it's wire wheels overtook him on the M25. The car was totalled and he was lucky to be alive after it slewed onto the central reservation and wiped along the Armco. It was a rear wheel and as you can imagine I had a long conversation to see what if any lessons were to be learned. As the wheel was on the correct side of the car and tightened and no defects were found by the vehicle examiner I concluded there were none. The wheel was picked up by the traffic police and he got it back with the car, although he has never used it again. I was surprised by this as I always believed if you were there or thereabouts with wire wheels they self tightened, clearly that's not true.
Stan Best

To grease or not to grease the tapers ? Local supplier advice is not to grease tapers as this can allow them to move, [ slip.] All other tapers I have seen are always dry so they can bite in. . ? ? ? Sean
S Sherry

the Knock-off caps must be very tight to prevent wear of the drive teeth,and they do not tighten them selves when driving , if they did ,the drive teeth are worn out,??
da wright

I dont belt the daylights out of my knockoffs and there always tight to remove but I to have seen them come off even when supposedly fitted correctly. I am sure if not tight enough they will not self tighten but if good and firm they will nip up further. I think they fact that if fitted on the wrong side they will fall off in 25 miles or less supports the self tightening bit. I dont lube the hub to wheel taper as it is part of the drive but I lube the rest well. I now have knockoff Superlites which tighten very quickly but with the old spoke wheels you always could get a bit more and it was hard to know when to stop.
Another thing that bothers me sometimes on the way home after leaving my car outside a pub etc is if some smart arrrse has tampered with the knockoffs. It probably does happen and may have in the example in the earlier thread.
DENIS4

These wheels are not the typical wire wheel set up we are used to. They are a more modern type, without splines like we are used to. They have teeth to engage, and must be tight. Look on Daytons website and you will see what is being described.
E.K.

It makes sense not to lube the hub to wheel taper on "our" kind of wire wheels because it is part of the drive, but I believe some sources say this should be lubricated to allow the wheel to center properly. If I remember correctly, the original MGB ownerīs manual from the mid sixties say that all surfaces shall be coated lightly with grease.

Tore
Tore

"with wire wheels they self tightened, clearly that's not true" I don't think just one instance of a wheel coming off can justify that, we don't know if it were properly tightened to begin with, or anything else about this particular situation.

"I think they fact that if fitted on the wrong side they will fall off in 25 miles or less". Just as they do self-tighten they do self-loosen if on the wrong sides (the hubs and spinners, not the wheels which aren't handed). One of the recommendations for stuck wheels is to drive in reverse in a circle with the stuck wheel on the inside. Another piece of oft-repeated advice is never to tow a centre-lock wheel car in reverse with any wheels on the ground, for the same reason.

Tightening onto the tapers is a different area to the drive splines. There is always some play in the splines, otherwise you wouldn't be able to get the wheel on and off without a press. I don't know what the typical life of splines is, but general opinion is that they *do* wear. This comes about from the fact that there *is* some play, which means under braking and acceleration (rear wheels at least) the splines are continually being shifted from one face contacting to the other. Initially the movement is so small you can't hear it, but it gradually 'hammers' the splines so they become thinner and eventually you can hear it as a 'click' going from braking to drive. The flat top on new splines gradually becomes a peak, that then leans over, eventually being ripped off which is when the splines strip. This happens to front wheels as well even though there is relatively little reverse thrust as that only comes from braking in reverse.

Interestingly the Dayton gear drive isn't new, Bugatti used it on the Type 59 of the 1930s - http://tinyurl.com/6qps96. It had little more than piano wire attaching the rim to the hub, the gear taking all the drive and braking forces. Even so this was an eight cylinder, 3257cc 240hp GP car, quite something for those piano wires to keep together.
Paul Hunt

I have found that the lead in the Moss knock-off hammers is so soft that the hammer is pretty much destroyed after a few uses. What is the opinion of the copper "Thor" hammers? Do they damage the knock-offs quickly? A racer friend uses a steel hammer on his knock-offs. They look like hell but are not about to come off!
I found myself one knock-off short for a show and borrowed one of his. When I got a comment on it's condition I just said, "Sure it looks rough but it has raced at Sebring and Laguna Seca." Nuff said!

Rich
Rich McKIe

I have used a copper hammer since the 70s when the original was stolen. From memory this was lead one side and hide the other. The copper one works fine and my spinners are still original and have never needed re-plating. Also, re splines actually transmitting torque, I always believed that the idea of handed spinner threads was that if the wheel does move it causes a rachet effect where eventually the drive is taken on the tapers maybe the taper needs to be greased to allow this to happen?
Stan Best

Just looked up what the 1965 factory driverīs handbook says:

1
When the car is new, after the first long run or after 50 miles of short runs, jack up the wheels and hammer the nuts to make sure that they are tight.

2
Always jack up a wheel before using the hammer, and always hammer the nuts tight.

3
Locknuts are marked LEFT or RIGHT to show to which side of the car they must be fitted, and also with the word UNDO and an arrow.

4
Before replacing a wheel wipe all serrations, threads, and cones of the wheel and hub and then lightly coat them with grease. If a forced change is made on the road, remove, clean and grease as soon as convenient.

5
Once a year remove the wheels for examination and regreasing.

So it seems that lubrication is important.

Tore
Tore

I have just bought new chrome wheels and during fitting by the manufacturer I asked about tightening.

The way they fit wire wheels is to hand tighten them up in the air and then fully tighten when on the ground. They have a long wooden saver that fits over the spinners and allows quite a good torque just by hand. They do not recommend over tightening them as they do self tighten.

I bought one of these wooden savers and find it very helpful. You can use any type of hammer as you don't actually hit the spinners.

I marked all my wheels and spinners with a small yellow dot. Only one spinner ever moved and that had self tightened about 10mm. (1/2") This was on a front wheel.

I now only check that the dots line up before each trip instead of giving the spinners a bash. If the spinner is tight hitting it to check could be counter productive.

The manufacturer recommended a 20,000 mile or 2 year professional inspection.
D M Tetlow

My 1966 handbook has the identical text, I went and read after looking through the workshop manual which gives none of this advice. I imagine Abingdon felt that it would be felt they were teaching granny to suck eggs by the fitters of those days so they only put it in the owners handbook.
Stan Best

I have found that a 'Deadblow Hammer' works very well on my knock offs. It has good weight and the plastic skin does not mark the knock offs at all.
Ken

I found completely the opposite with the MGOC 'lead' hammer - one tentative whack was enough to mark the spinner, so I used a block of wood as a sacrificial anvil for many years. Then I discovered a Thor hammer with a nylon face one side and alloy the other, and have used the nylon side ever since with no further damage.
Paul Hunt

On the weekend I bought a Thor 2# copper hammer. It's harder on the knock-offs but a lot more reassuring in that you know that the knock-offs are on tight. It is likely to last much longer than the month that my lead hammer lasted (Probably no more than 16-20 individual wheel remove/replacements). To top it off the Thor was not that much more expensive than the lead blob with the cheap looking metal handle/rubber grip, and it is a cool tool!

Rich

Rich
Rich McKIe

Here's an illustration;
A traditional tool vs modern crap!


Rich McKIe

The faux lead hammer isn't crap because it deforms. It's doing exactly what it is designed to do. It delivers a blow equal to a solid hammer without damaging the spinner. The hammer takes the damage instead of the chrome.

The hammers sold by Moss and some others are quite good at tightening eared spinners without marring them. I've tried several types and this is what I prefer. Even with four knock-off equipped cars, I only replace a hammer every few years. This is much cheaper than replacing a set of spinners at the same interval!

The wood cutouts do work but they don't last very long. Mine was done for in under one season, and the price of a replacement was not attractive.

I love when visitors ask me how the wheels come on and off the car. When I describe the hammer bit, they don't believe it can be done without damage. I then hand them the hammer and instruct the person to beat on the spinner as hard as they like. At this point they decline so I give it a few hard swings while they wince, and then watch their eyes open in disbelief.

I'm easily amused, ya know. :)
Steve Simmons

Oh, and my take on installing and removing knockoff spinners...

Removing:
Loosen and remove spinner with wheel off the ground.

Installing:
Tighten spinner with wheel off the ground. Tighten further with wheel touching ground but not under full vehicle weight (some pressure still on jack).
Steve Simmons

The faux lead hammer is crap because no attention was paid to using an alloy that would last any length of time. It is so soft that it becomes scrap after a very small number of uses. After the tool deforms it is very difficult to strike the knock-off properly to tighten the wheel. I object to paying good money for a poorly made tool.
Trust me it IS crap! (I will gladly send it to you if you feel you could use it!)

Rich
Rich McKIe

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. There are hundreds of hammers on the market that will tighten a knockoff without deforming so quickly as the lead hammers do, but it comes down to basic metallurgy. A harder metal will always damage a softer one when struck together in such a way. The softer the hammer, the less damage to the spinner. That's why my spinner ears look literally brand new after many years. Of course I've gone through 4 or 5 hammers in that time, but it's a small price to pay! Once every couple years I spend $15 on a new hammer and I'm good to go. Actually, the last 3 hammers were free from the Moss Motors "free stuff" promotions, so I'm even more ahead of the game!
Steve Simmons

Like Paul I still carry a piece of hardwood to put between the hammer and the knock off. I use antisieze rather then grease, sticks on a little better and makes less mess. A fellow club member had the splines wear out on a front wheel hub, two applications of the brake while driving spun the knockoff right off the hub.
John H

The Thor hammer I use has leather on one side and copper on the other. I use the copper side only to loosen the wing nuts, and for the final two blows when I tighten them. A compromise that works for me.

And of course you all know why this tool has got the name Thor, donīt you?

http://www.cdli.ca/CITE/v_thor.htm

In Norwegian the name is often spelt Tor, the same name as Tore :-)

Tore
Tore

This thread was discussed between 03/06/2008 and 11/06/2008

MG MGB Technical index

This thread is from the archives. Join the live MG MGB Technical BBS now