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MG MGF Technical - 4-2-1 Exhaust manifold - who's interested in one?

Hi folks,

I'm currently looking into having an 4-2-1 exhaust manifold fabricated for my MGF - and after a chat with the chaps, it appears that if they have 5 or more orders, they'll do a discount (and more of a discount for the bigger the order - makes sense really).

The plan is to have a Dave Walker/ Dave Andrews style manifold made up, complete with 26" long primaries with the step at 12" from 1.5 to 1.75" diameter and 9" secondaries with a 2" diameter.

There are some of these available on the market at the moment - mostly for the Elise (the EBD one, for example, doesn't fit the MGF because of the differences in the design of the subframe) - but this one would be made specifically for the MGF/ TF.

A choice of materials would also be available - mild steel or stainless steel (cost approx. 350 or 450 + VAT) - I was thinking of getting a mild steel one, and have that ceramic coated (better heat insulation) - but you could have either / or, as suits your requirements.

Let me know if you're interested, and I'll get back on the phone to see how to take this forward.

(BTW, they can fabricated a 'flexi-cat' - probably at a similar price to that quoted by eliseparts.com)
Rob Bell

I woudl be intrested but I already have the Janspeed 4-2-1 fitted and I suspect that incremental increase is not worth it for me.

However, I can testify that the 4-2-1 does help low/medium rang torque. Rob's design sounds even better suited to the F than the Janspeed. So if you have the standard exhaust manifold you will feel the difference!
Steve Ratledge

Hello Rob,
Interested in a 4,2,1 manifold. Obviously the cheaper the better as the F has got me into serious wife trouble of late. M'S' do 4,2,1 at £385. Will there be much difference in the ones you order? That is performance difference firstly then price difference. Definately the next item on the shopping list.
Nik & Anita

hi Rob,
I take the F-TF manifold will fit the Elise (although it's not true the contrary), as the original manifolds are the same.
Personally I am interested and I think it may raise some further interest also on the Elise forums...
Carlo

Nik, I can't comment on Mike's 4-2-1 system - I know that he used to sell the Janspeed but may since have changed suppliers? Costs wise, Mike's system is extremely competitive - as you might expect as he'll buy in bulk to gain cost advantages.

The design I am ordering was first trialed on Steve Butt's Elise (in around 2001 I believe?), and uses some design adaptions originally suggested by Dave Walker - and it works superbly well. Steve reports strong mid-range and top end torque/power gains with no bottom end losses. It's a very strong system from this perspective, and a design with plenty of 'exposure' on other cars fitted with the K-series engine (e.g. the Caterham).

Carlo - the Elise exhaust system has an identical layout to the MGF - except that the system on the MGF has to run through a tighter gap between the sump and subframe - the reason why some designed-for Elise manifolds will not fit the MG. But yes, you could certainly fit a MGF manifold to an Elise :o)

I need about 5 orders to be able to negotiate a discount - but am happy to order more or less than this figure as necessary :o) Carlo, be my guest to canvass more interest on the Elise forums :o)
Rob Bell

Hi Rob:
I´m interested in a 4-2-1 Exhaust Manifold, if it´s possible; but I don´t know if this one could be fitted in a car fitted with air conditioning system ( because B&G BGF6003 Manifold can´t ) http://www.ukmgparts.com

Regards.

Eduardo.
Eduard Miro

Mike does indeed now sell a different 4:2:1

I have one of the Janspeed ones from Mike, but the Essex Guys have just bought a 'job lot' of his new one (which i think is a Piper system). Comparison between the two benefits the newer system in my opinion, it is mandrel bent (a lot fewer welds) and incorporates mounts for the heat shields (which the Janspeed one doesn't much to my annoyance - just waiting for my alternator to burn out before i finally get round to b*stardising the heat shields to fit).

Overall, i was pretty impressed. I am pencelled in to help fit these in the near future - just waiting for the guys to get spare Lamda sensors (incase they break the old ones / strip the thread getting them out of the old manifold).

SF
Scarlet Fever

The Piper system is indeed a better system (from what I've heard) than the Janspeed - although I don't know the details of the design in the same way that I do for the system I'm asking for.

Andy, Mark was asking me what connector is used for the Lambda - I think that it is the square connector block, but am still checking!

Eduardo, I'll ask about the air con, as this is a very common stumbling point with these manifolds. I don't have the aircon compressor, but like you, would be interested to get a manifold that doesn't foul the compressor.
Rob Bell

I might be interested in a 4-2-1 for the 16v KV6 in my ZS180 ;)

Seriously though, any idea how much a tuned manifold for the ZS KV6 would be?

Ralph
Ralph

MGF & TF EXHAUST MANIFOLD stainless steel

In conjunction with Piper camshafts and exhausts have revised the design for our sports manifold for 2005. An improvement over our old design, mandrel bent on CNC benders for smooth perfect bends without joints making it unique for this application. Great care and attention to detail makes this product the most desirable on the market.We have also revised the flexible connection with a larger bore to prevent restrictions. We have also incorporated brackets for the heatshield so fitting is very straight forward.The manifold will fit all models MGF or TF with or without aircon. Currently on offer at £325.00 plus vat (£381.88)
Just in case anyone isn't up to 'speed';-)
Mike.
mike

If there's one thing I need to change on our car, it will be the exhaust manifold. So I guess I will be ordering one during the summer.
Erik

Ralph, I can certainly ask. You probably know more than me about manifolds for the KV6 cars - but the ones on Kev's car certainly were a long way from being describable as"cheap".

I'll let you know.

Erik, you are welcome to make use of Mike's excellent offer, or of the manifold design I'm looking into having made up - if the latter, let me know, as this may help the guys decide whether they want to set up their own manufacturing jigs.
Rob Bell

Right then folks, I've made a list of those who've expressed an interest - certainly no obligation at this stage - certainly not until costs have been clarified!

I'll ensure that the manifold will clear the subframe, an airconditioning compressor or supercharger or what ever you may have fitted ;o)

Ralph, I'll ask separately about the KV6 manifold :o)

The 'interested' list currently stands at:
1. Nik
2. Carlo
3. Eduardo
4. Dave
5. Rob
6. Erik
Rob Bell

Hi Rob,

Have been put onto this thread by Dave via MGoT as I have just bought an MGF.

Please put me down as interested too please.

I would also need to have the space around the aircon compressor unfouled please.

Thanks.
Steve
Steve Owen

Okay Steve, no worries - list now stands at

1. Nik
2. Carlo
3. Eduardo
4. Dave
5. Rob
6. Erik
7. Steve
Rob Bell

This info' may just persuade a few people on this issue.
Just got back from Emerald after having the car mapped by Dave Walker. He could not believe that I have made so many changes to the car without the most important one,,,,,, you've guessed it,,,,, I still have the standard manifold. Dave was convinced that even though the car did very well, as much as another 15 bhp could be achieved with a proper manifold. Yes, I did feel a pratt, Mike Satur also told me of huge possible gains only last week. So now my manifold will cost me twice as much beacause I will need another map when it is fitted.
Nik & Anita

How's the car running now Nik? :o)
Rob Bell

Like a dream Rob. But now that Dave has timed the cams properly the car is running very smooth, so it doesn't feel too different to standard, other than the speeds increase quickly. It only ran 165 bhp and 136 torque, but with the manifold restriction I had to be happy. And that is still a fair gain from 118. Dave does have a 2.3 litre Duratec which he reckons could get 250 bhp and would fit in the F. 4 weeks ago I would have been interested but skint now. Maybe next year.
Nik

Nik, 165 is very impressive, which head conversion do you have.... and who by, name, names :o)

My own DVA conversion (K13) gives 162, with standard exhaust and manifold a new manifold and exhaust could make few extra horses may be not 15 on my set-up but even 6-8 would be nice :o)
tim woolcott

Tim,
slight thread hijack...
did you have a Trophy TB when mapping at Emerald last year?
I ask because I am looking for a map for a K13 kit with a plastic (48 mm) TB
TIA
Carlo
Carlo

i had a Trophy 160 TB fitted, since you haven't got one I would recommend investing in one, without it you're not going to get the full benefit of Dave's work.

If it would be useful I can email you the map when I get home.

Tim
Tim

Rob, Very interested, have been trying not to be tempted but, price is one consideration bearing in mind our rubbish exchange rate and also it must be able to clear the A/C system.
Andrew Regens

Andrew,

careful.......The Dark Side is calling again........


Branko

LOL Branko! Andrew, okay, I'll keep you posted. As I recall, having shipped an exhaust out to New Zealand in the past, shipping can be costly, but I'll find out as much as I can now, and you can make the call closer to the time :o)
Rob Bell

Yeah, these bl**dy shipping costs really hit the pocket don't they!

I buy a bit of stuff from UK and USA on ebay and I usually have the items shipped using surface international mail.

If you are not in a hurry, (as it can take 6 weeks), then this method works out to be the most cost effective.

I stress "if you are not in a hurry".

Cheers,
Branko (Light Side at the moment)
Branko

Tim, DVA K13ish. 633 cams. I would also take an extra 8bhp. Will find out shortly. What torque are you getting?? Got a few more bhp with different fueling but the torque curve was poorer.
Nik

I thought I had some of Tim's power curves on line, but it appears not - sadly he didn't make the last Emerald RR day. :o(

Nik, are you taking the MS manifold route, or would you still be interested in the one I'm about to commission? No commitment required, it's just so that I know numbers when I chat to Dave (another Dave! LOL)
Rob Bell

Have just checked the power curved from the emerald mapping, 'snap' I have 136 ftlb of torque too.

tim woolcott

Rob, count me in. Just hope they take a few weeks to produce. I need to do some serious grovelling on behalf of "that bl**dy car".
Tim, how similar are our engines then? or do emerald just print us all the same to keep us happy. I still need a bit more performance as Neil Stothert left me at the lights last week, any affordable suggestions?
Nik

A 98 VVC?
Neil Stothert

Nik,

Best up-grade is to up-grade the driver and do a for trackdays with instruction. It's not just getting away from the lights but going around the next corner :o)

If Emerald do print the same curved they take 5 hours to do it :o)

The next up-grade for the k13 is MTB's this is what the head is REALLY for, without it the head is just cruising. Or buy a k-series Caterham as well for real thrills :o)

Do you intend taking your car to Cadwell in June?
tim woolcott

I hope 98 vvc's are not all the problem, just your bl**dy thing.
Yep..... manifold then multiple throttle bodies.
Track days are something I have been trying to avoid, don't think I can much longer. I would have been on my way to Donnington right now but Anita would have none of it. I will put my foot down in June.
Nik

Nik, surely Anita realises that you are actually *saving* money by "investing" in "that bl**dy car"?

Just think of all that money you are not loosing in depreciation by not selling the F. Better still, you are saving in depreciation on what ever you bought to replace it...

You're doing her a favour! LOL

Welcome to the darkside! ;o)

Okay, no problem Nik - I'll keep you posted on the manifold: we're certainly not talking about next week for these - it's going to take them a little while to sort out. :o)
Rob Bell

Just by way of an update, helped fit three of Mike Satur's (Piper) 4:2:1 manifolds over the weekend - about 3 hours work per car i reckon. Got a blinding tip from Mike himself regarding access for the new part, spot on it was and made the job a great deal easier - cheers mate :-)

SF
Scarlet Fever

Nik,

>>I hope 98 vvc's are not all the problem, just your bl**dy thing.

Have you met my '98 VVC ;-)

>>I would have been on my way to Donnington right now but Anita would have none of it. I will put my foot down in June.

You should have been there - see http://pitlane.mgs-on-track.com/showthread.php?p=3003#post3003

>> I will put my foot down in June.

Excellent :-)
Dave Livingstone

Dave,
Am I now public enemy no1 for 98 vvc's. I expect them to be running me off the road at every opportunity.
Yes Dave, I take 'Total MG' and are fully aware of your red machine.
I think Anita is giving in slowly, just a few more right hooks should see her submission.
Nik

Right, Dave has got his car going in to Powerspeed in a couple of weeks time for measurement etc - and once the measurements have been made and the chaps have a clearer idea on how best to approach the fabrication side, and then will be able to give us a better indication on prices :o)

Given that a few of us have airconditioning units, we need to get a car with airconditioning around to their base in Kent.

Anyone with a air-con equipped MGF/TF in the SE/ Kent area who'd be happy to pop their car around to Powerspeed to get these critical measurements made?
Rob Bell

Hi Rob,

I am one of the people who have put my name down and do need the additional clearance in the area of the aircon unit.........although the reason I need the additional clearance is not for an aircon unit but another type of compressor....which judging from the Seloc forum is the same type of compressor as you are planning to install ;-)

The problem is that I live in Norfolk so without knowing exactly where Powerspeed are, I am guessing that I am around 3 hours away, so not that easy to "pop down".
If you can let me know where they are exactly then I will have a better look.

Also I am not sure if my car would be ideal / representative anyway as I do not know the differences in size / space of mine and one with an aircon unit - but if I can help then I will.

Cheers
Steve
Steve Owen

ROFL - rumbled ;o) Yes, you're right, I do have that kind of compressor in mind! I'm heading down to Powerspeed on Thursday with Dave to get the car measured up. Interestingly Dave @ Powerspeed reckons that a 4-1 is better for a SC car - so that may be what you need to consider too? I may go down that particular route, rather than get two manifolds made up for NA and SC applications...
Rob Bell

Once we've got Rob's car in for measurement, my car will follow on Wednesday 25th for them to hopefully create the new 'solution' in time for the our Bedford track day on Bank Holiday Monday. The 'solution' is to build a special flexi-cat to compensate for the reduced space one an 'ideal' length 4-2-1 is built. This will have three advantages:
1. ideal length primary and secondary pipes on the 4-2-1
2. better quality and freer-flowing cat
3. better quality after-market flexi section that can easily be replaced if damaged.

The latter is important to me as I've got through two flexi-pipes in two years and cutting out a damaged flexi and replacing it with a standard item has to be more cost efficient in the future.
Dave Livingstone

Just for clarification lads. Will the 4.2.1 fit with a normal cat when required. I want the manifold but don,t want to mess with a new cat.
Nik

Yes, it will Nik. Like you, I want (need) to keep the standard cat. The problem arises with engine movement - which can place a strain on the manifold. The solution, if you aren't bothered with the idea of using a flex-cat, is to fit a stiffer engine steady bar bush, available from Eliseparts.com.

If you'd rather, we can ask about alternative flexi-section solutions, although the problem will be the compromise of the secondary pipe lengths.
Rob Bell

Morning everyone,

Hopefully I shall be getting a little more information regarding costs today (car's been in the workshops all weekend for measuring up) - so everyone can make their decisions on whether to go for it or not.

May be easier to manage this by email - could everyone who is interested please mail me on robert dot m dot bell at kcl dot ac dot uk today?

Cheers :o)
Rob Bell

Got a good idea of prices now. We're looking at £350 for a mild steel 4-2-1 and £450 for the stainless version. Dave can also make us a straight through silencer (with one dummy pipe) for under £350 - which will be re-packable.

Okay then folks, drop me an email at the above address, and I'll keep you all posted - we may be able to get more of a discount if we get a few more people on board :o)
Rob Bell

This thread was discussed between 25/04/2005 and 23/05/2005

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