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MG MGF Technical - Bloody hell, HGF
Hi all, So, now i have the lovely HGF on my 2000 mkII. 41000 km on the clock, but i gues thats a part of the pleasure of having a MGF. I have got all the parts, and will fix it this weekend. Looking in the manual, there is a special tool, part# 18G 1736/1. What function does this tool have?, and do i need need it for the job, thanks in advance Kjeld |
| Kjeld Andersen |
| At a guess the cam locking tool? Ted |
| Ted Newman |
| Context is useful! 18G 1736/1 is the cylinder liner clamp, You need this tool* if you plan to move the crankshaft at all (for instance changing the belts) whilst the head is off. If you chose to move the order of things so you don't touch the crankshaft with the head off then you can get away with it. The tool is very expensive and a special order from rover. *You can easily make this tool by using a piece of wood 100mm (strictly 'over 97mm') thick and long enough to run the distance along the head. Use big holes and a 'repair' washers so you don't put any accidental sideways force on the headbolts. Note the tool is designed so the pistons can be removed, a block of wood would require some fettleing to get it to the correct shape for this. |
| Will Munns |
| Hi, That's right, for a head gasket change you don't need the tool. As Will says the tool is required if you do other work on the engine or have the head off for some time. If it's a gasket change then the head is only off for 10 mins (if you're paying someone to do it) to one hour (if you're doing it yourself and like to have a look around). The only specialist tool I required was the cam sprocket locking tool. I would have liked a crankshaft locking tool but couldn't find anyone who had one so I rigged one up to jam the starter ring. (Not on my F, as it hasn't had a HGF, but on another K-series engine). Regards, Kes. |
| Kes |
| To hi-jack the thread briefly (sorry Kjeld) - but it is kinda related, has anyone had cause to change the cams? I guess that a crank locking tool should not be required for this: would leaving the engine in gear with the handbrake on be sufficient to keep everything from moving? |
| Rob Bell |
| Talking from experience...no leaving in gear will not prevent engine turning when removing the crankshaft pulley, something you have to do to change the cam belt. If you have HGF it would be silly not to renew cam belts at the same time. Also having just had my cam belt tensioner fail causing 16 bent valves I would advise anyone to renew this at the same time...only another Ģ24.00. Wills suggestion for making a tool for holding the liners in place is a sound one. Best way to lock flywheel is to remove nuts from starter motor, remove the small flywhell cover plate. Get an assistant to lock a tyre lever or simular on the flywheel ring teeth while undoing/ tightning crankshaft pulley nut. One has to be careful not to damage the teeth though. Good luck and have plenty of plasters handy :-) I got loads of cuts and bruises don |
| D Kimberley |
| Hmm - but would I need to replace the belt if just changing cams? I can see that, ideally, one should - but is it necessary? |
| Rob Bell |
| The original 18G 1736/1 comes with nylon washers, from what I've seen recently. However, making own tools is easy, but take care you don't put to much pressure on the liners when you use steel washers. http://www.mgfcar.de/hgf/JF_Liner_keepers.jpg |
| Dieter K. |
Hi all, Thanks for all the advice about the tool. I like the wood one, but think i will go Dieter's way. Since the pice of wood must be round 100mm, i gues iĻ can cut some 3 & 4 100mm pipes and use them. I will not change belts. 1200 km ago, the where changed along with tensioner and WP, strange that the HGF comes so fast after that, but Rod told from a picture i send him, that it look like the dowels that has to be blamed here, but i still wonder if the bleeding was made to the book. The woork will start now, and i have a grease monky who use to do race cars, and he says it will be running tonight. Gues his former job was at Ferrari, but i hope he is right. Will keep you posted. |
| Kjeld Andersen |
Hi all, Thanks for all the advice about the tool. I like the wood one, but think i will go Dieter's way. Since the pice of wood must be round 100mm, i gues iĻ can cut some 3 & 4 100mm pipes and use them. I will not change belts. 1200 km ago, the where changed along with tensioner and WP, strange that the HGF comes so fast after that, but Rod told from a picture i send him, that it look like the dowels that has to be blamed here, but i still wonder if the bleeding was made to the book. The woork will start now, and i have a grease monky who use to do race cars, and he says it will be running tonight. Gues his former job was at Ferrari, but i hope he is right. Will keep you posted. |
| Kjeld Andersen |
| You could make the tool using wooden rod (I would prefer wood than dieters metal because you definitly won't scar the piston liners) The important thing is that the tool has to be 100mm in length top to bottom (or the head bolts will be too long to use) and it has to overlap the cylinder liners. The tool I envisige is a plank of wood, cut to the length of the head and then if you lie it on its side then you begin to see the idea. But if you are not changing the belts then don't bother with it, there is no point. |
| Will Munns |
| Tubes and large washers make brilliant cylinder liner holders. HGF just a few hundred kms after coolant change? Definitely bleeding not having been carried out properly. Cylinder head water jacket with air in it = cylinder head and gasket overheats, gasket seals lets go from base plate. Filling the system through the bleed point in the 'head makes sure it gets filled with coolant. |
| Jon |
| Will, any chance of a rough and ready sketch of what you are proposing? |
| Rob Bell |
Hi again, Jon, the bleed point in the head, is that the one in the hose over the engine, or is there one on the head itself?. If so, where? Donīt hope there is any damage to the head. If there is, my vacation will go down the tube with it, arrggg. regards Kjeld |
| Kjeld Andersen |
| Rob, YH(hot)M |
| Will Munns |
| oh no you don't Do you have an email addr that doesn't bounse - do I have to remove anything from the one on the UMG site? |
| Will Munns |
| Will, got the figure - now hosted here: http://www.mgcars.org.uk/carclub/mgfregister/temp/block_liner_retaining_tool.jpg The bolts that the block of wood uses - are these the long bolts, or something else Will? |
| Rob Bell |
| They're the head bolts, thats why you need 100mm thickness (thickness of the head and gasket) |
| Will Munns |
| Gotcha - makes a lot of sense :o) |
| Rob Bell |
| Hi, I don't wish to labour the point (not too much, anyway) but how long is the head going to be off the block? If everything is going well then Kjeld is going to lift the head, remove the old gasket, clean up, fit the new gasket and replace the head (plus picture taking time). Fitting the liner clamping tools, whether home-made or not, is just time consuming, a pain to work round, and introduces the danger of inadvertently moving the liners. The liners are not going to leap up out of the block of their own volition. Liner clamps are not necessary for a head gasket change, as I was advised by a respected F engineer (on this BBS if anyone cares to search). Regards, Kes. |
| Kes |
| I'm sure I said that twice already! >Filling the system through the bleed point in the 'head makes sure it gets filled with coolant. This is patently untrue (I missed it the first time) If you block the bleed point with water then the air will not be able to escape in the other direction! There is a bleed point on each side of the head, on the exhaust side it is an upright tube which has a narrow bore pipe to the header tank, on the inlet side there is a narrow bore pipe from the end of the inlet manifold. Disconnect both of these, then reconnect them when coolant starts to drip out - then you can be sure the head has been filled with coolant. you may wish to blow thru to make sure the bearing is free before you start. |
| Will Munns |
| >you may wish to blow thru to make sure the bearing is free before you start. Blow thru in the opposite direction to the way it will bleed. |
| Will Munns |
| Hi, <... I'm sure I said that twice already! ...> Yep, you did, but the thread still went swanning off into great detail about knocking some up! It'll soon be academic anyway if Kjeld has the engine running tonight! Regards, Duff. |
| Kes |
| Kjeld - this is what my liner keepers look like: http://www.mgfcar.de/hgf/JF_Liner_keepers.jpg When i fill the system I disconnect the hose from the bleed point i the cylinder head at the right rear corner of the head and connect a water hose to it. Then open the three ordinary bleed points (radiator, heater and coolant rail) and close when water comes. Reconnect the bleed point hose and fill the required amount of antifreeze through the coolant bottle with the radiator plug open, letting excessive water drain. I have done it this way several times. It is fast, efficient and easy. The proof of the efficiency of the bleeding is how much (little) the coolant level in the expansion bottle drops after the engine has been run. |
| Jon |
| ... the original comes quite near to Jon's 3 pipes with excentric weld washer (top of the pic) http://www.mgfcar.de/hgf/18G.1736_liner_tool.jpg btw, while on the matter. Can anyone out there identify the other tools below 18G.1736 on the picture ? I found the picture at any ebay auction. Went to expensive the other day. |
| Dieter K. |
| Hi, Dieter, 18G 1748 is a crankshaft front oil seal removal tool for the KV6. I'm not sure about the three 'washers' below 18G 1736. Are they part of 1736? Regards, Kes. |
| Kes |
| Thanks for that. I'll delete KV6 stuff from the pic later. Assume the washers with *thread* are also not for K16-Engine. Lotzs of different tools had been sold off by a Bimmer dealer at Ebay 2 years ago. No sense if they where not marked with numbers. Had the chance to source only some. The other like 18G 1736 got to expensive from the auction. |
| Dieter K. |
Hi all, First i would like to say thankyou to all who has given tips and triks for my HGF repair. Now my lovely car is back on the road, and the repair went after plan more or less, so i just hope the new HG will last a little longer than the first. The hgf did spoil a part of my vacation, but now i am ready to go and see the guys at Tech-Speed next week, and to have a good time in England. thanks again, Kjeld |
| Kjeld Andersen |
| Good news Kjeld - enjoy you UK visit and don't spend too much at Tech-Speed :-) Ted |
| Ted Newman |
| nice one Kjeld :o) Sorry that I'll miss you on your visit here, but have a great trip :o) |
| Rob Bell |
| Hi, Dieter, the nylon washers with threaded holes are part of 18G 1736. They are used on the threaded part of the head bolts if the sump and oil rail are removed (to fit new big-end bearings and other major work). The crankshaft has to be turned to bring the big-ends to BDC to fit the new bearings, so liner clamping is essential. I don't know whether it is necessary to remove the cylinder head. The washers could be used just with the long bolts (no spacers). I'm sure somebody in the business can tell us. On second thoughts, it's probably better to remove the head. You wouldn't want it dropping off when you took the head bolts out, would you? Regards, Kes. |
| Kes |
This thread was discussed between 29/07/2004 and 02/08/2004
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