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MG MGF Technical Engine swap Help ! standard 1.8 to VVC BBS discussion at MG-Cars.info
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MG MGF Technical - Engine swap Help ! standard 1.8 to VVC
| Engine swap Help ! standard 1.8 to VVC After the disasters of the blown engine and cylinder liner disintegration due to HGF / water in cylinder posted on the BBS Sunday 9/3/03, Thanks to all of you who posted replies and help! I have managed to source a 1.8 VVC engine unit complete with ECM and engine bay wiring loom from 1996 Rover coupe at a local breakers today. Are there any known problems with this swap e.g. wiring incompatibility, ECM etc ? I see that the old ECM has only one multi plug while the new one has two, but I do have the complete wiring from the engine bay of the donor car so guess that it should be possible but someone out there must have done it already….. Help !! Cheers Rob |
| Rob Bristow |
| Speedo, gearbox and some more bits including at last a visit to a dealer for programming. Nope, I'd leave it out. Just my few pence. |
| Dieter K. |
| Rob, As far as i am aware no one on here has done this. From experience F owners in your situation tend to fall into three camps: those that already have a VVC and replace like for like, those that have an MPi and replace like for like and those who see the replacement engine as an opportunity for an upgrade, in which case they tend to stick with the MPi as there is more that can be done with it and it is less complicated to do so. I fell into the latter group and swapped my MPi for the same model with the intention of upgrading the spec later. The Modular Engine Management System (MEMS) and wiring as you have correctly identifed is the main difference. IIRC there was talk of the gear ratios being subtley different between the two models as well. The rev counter is also different between the two models (just the position of the red line as the VVC revs slightly higher). Probably a good idea to talk to someone like Mike Satur or Dave Andrews as they are considered experts in this field and will know the differences inside out. If i had to do it over again i would still replace like for like as i feel that the VVC engine closes the door on a few tuning options. Just an opinion. SF |
| Scarlet Fever |
| Or you could grab it and strip the VVC mech (see DVA tuneing) and use the standard loom and ecu (I think) |
| Will Munns |
| Did this conversion a couple of years ago for Alan Tong but it was a MGF engine and gearbox/drive shafts/ecu that made it an 'easy'conversion. A coupe will have several differences with drive shafts /gearbox/clutch actuation etc as well as ECU differences.Would put the complete engine and inlet and fit solid cams and re-use the standard ECU for costs.Might work?? Mike. |
| mike |
| Andy, But the ABS on the VVC might have saved Scarlet! Cheers Patrick |
| Patrick Beet |
| Does it work when you are going sideways then Patrick? ;-) SF |
| Scarlet Fever |
| ABS should work which ever way you are going:-) Ted |
| Ted Newman |
| Yes but whether it is working or not, it will have no effect on a car going sideways... Besides, ABS isn't fitted to the VVC engine, it is (logically) fitted to the brakes so swapping an MPi engine for a VVC one isn't going to make ABS 'appear' on the braking system... Lastly, it is rare for an F, even an MPi, to be sans ABS. It is one of the more common items added to the specification. Therefore it is highly likely that Rob already has ABS on his F... :-) SF |
| Scarlet Fever |
| SF > it is rare for an F, even an MPi, to be sans ABS. It > is one of the more common items added to the specification. Sorry, but must disagree with you here. Leastways, all the MPi's I go to look at are without ABS. This is becoming very frustrating because I said to myself ABS is a must for my next MGF after a few scares with P715 (or was that the NCT3's?!). Can I find a suitable car? Can I heck! Chris |
| Chris Reeves |
| Thanks for the input chaps, I may have misled originally as I’m only intending to fit the engine not the gearbox / engine unit so the different ratio’s, drive shafts etc will not effect me. And I’m not intending to upgrade again later. I’ve had chance to take a better look at the engine / wiring etc today and everything looks very similar apart from the new MEMs having two large multi plugs and the old one has only one but as I have the full engine bay loom and wiring diagrams I should be able to patch it together. Your right Scarlet I do have ABS already so should be able to stop it in a straight line whichever direction I’m going but hope to keep it going forward, mind you with all that free revving VVC power there’s no telling. Thanks Mike I had thought about swapping the VVC head for my old MPI one, which by a miracle avoided damage when the cylinder liner disintegrated the other day but as Dieter pointed out the inlet manifold is plastic and the gasket could have caused the blow up so at the moment I’m leaning towards the VVC which looks far better engineered. Either way I’ll keep you posted on my progress.. Cheers Rob |
| Rob Bristow |
| > I do have ABS already so should be able to stop it in a straight line whichever direction I’m going ABS won't help this. Now, changing the tyres... |
| Leigh |
| Rob, some great ideas have been thrown up by this thread: 1. swapping the old MPi lump for a VVC, and changing the wiring loom and MEMS - BUT do remember to take the matched 5AS immobiliser unit from the donor car... 2. Keeping the VVC head, but ditching the variable cams in preference to a Piper solid cam conversion. This WILL work with a standard MEMS, but I'm not entirely sure how well the car will run with this combination. Much better would be to swap the MEMS for Dave Walker's Emerald M3D... 3. Use your donor VVC block, mate it with your MPi head. His seems a little pointless perhaps, except that you could then sell on the unused VVC head for about 250 quid... more money saved, and you get to keep all the standard electrical items. All options to think about. It certainly is not difficult to perform a VVC swop (I know of a lot of cars that had this work done), but your final decision will be coloured by how much you have to spend, and what your final objectives to the project are... Oh, off topic, regarding the ABS - it really is as useful as a nodding dog on the parcel shelf once the car is sliding side-ways... |
| Rob Bell |
| Rob, Over on the Elise board someone is trying to sell a VVC conversion kit for an mpi. Obviously you dont want all the kit - but it does contain ome interseting item - a wiring harness adapter to allow a VVC Mems to be connected directly into a Mpi car harness. Aparently this came off a Caterham, so maybe they sell such a wiring adapter - it would certainly make your transplant much easier! Jason H |
| Jason H |
| Thanks for the info Rob & Jason... How critical is the matched 5AS immobiliser unit ? as I already have the engine etc at home and the donor car is at the breakers yard 50 miles away …. I did hope to drop the new engine in untouched apart from new cam belts as I’m on a limited budget ( I retired last year ) so would like to keep the costs down if possible and am not looking for ultimate performance. The only reason for swapping is that number 4 cylinder liner on my old engine disintegrated last week due to HGF. Have you any idea what costs are involved if I opted for ‘2. Keeping the VVC head, but ditching the variable cams in preference to a Piper solid cam conversion’ Or ‘Much better would be to swap the MEMS for Dave Walker's Emerald M3D’ ?? Can you let me have the URL for the Elise board, please.. Cheers Rob |
| Rob Bristow |
| >How critical is the matched 5AS immobiliser unit Errm, the hints in the title ;-) the MEMS has to be trained to the immobiliser, MGR will do this for £60, you cannot do it at home. Not an issue on an after market ECU like the emerald (~£400), but no-one does an ECU for the VVC except for Rover (emerald are working on it). If you are trying to save money, I would change the inlet manifold gasket and reuse your MPi head. Lotus site link at the bottom of the page. |
| Will Munns |
| >Oh, off topic, regarding the ABS - it really is as useful as a nodding dog on the parcel shelf once the car is sliding side-ways... < But it could help to prevent the slide in the first place - if it is a braking induced slide as opposed to an acceleration induced slide! Ted |
| Ted Newman |
| I think that scarlets problem was the andy induced slide due to rapid stearing, and the only way to avoid that is the patented understeer on the rover 200, but that does have the same effect of non ABS. Chose your poision |
| Will Munns |
| >>But it could help to prevent the slide in the first place - if it is a braking induced slide as opposed to an acceleration induced slide!<< You're right Ted - if the accident was caused by locking brakes, then ABS would help. I can't comment on the circumstances of SFA2, but I suspect that Will is right - this was a steering-induced spin :o( >>Have you any idea what costs are involved if I opted for ‘2. Keeping the VVC head, but ditching the variable cams in preference to a Piper solid cam conversion’ Or ‘Much better would be to swap the MEMS for Dave Walker's Emerald M3D’ ??<< Okay, you have a strict budget. I would therefore avoid the above options; the Piper cams will cost about 400 quid, and a similar sum for the Emerald M3D (although this will include a RR session to set it up). As Will indicates Rob, the 5AS immobiliser is coded to the MEMS. Therefore, it is easier to swap the MEMS and 5AS as a pair. Can the breaker post the 5AS to you? Otherwise, you are going to need to budget a trip to your local MGR dealer to get the MEMS reprogrammed. :o( The budget options you have available to you are: 1. Fit the VVC engine complete, along with its MEMS. Obtain its matched 5AS, and the job's a good 'un. 2. Fit the VVC block, install the MPi head. Therefore avoid the complication and potential expense of swapping the MEMS etc. Sell the VVC head and inlet plenum for 250-350 quid. More mechanical work - new cam belts, head gaskets, stretch bolts and other sundries, but easier on the electronic side of things, and cheaper overall because you can claw back some of your expenses by selling the unwanted VVC head. A tough choice, but I can see you going for option 1! ;o) |
| Rob Bell |
| Cheers Rob. I think that I would prefer option 1, it sounds like a dumb question but where is the 5AS located on the MGF and what does it look like so that I can relay the info to the breaker ( he wasn't very clued up on the VVC setup ). Cheers Rob |
| Rob Bristow |
| It's located behind the gear level, at the base of the centre console. You should be able to make it out on http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/mod_console_fixing.jpg Don't ask me where it is on the Tomcat that you removed your VVC engine from (although I have a R200 Haynes manual at home, so could have a look for you?) |
| Rob Bell |
| Rob Bell: Thanks, I take it we're talking about the silver box held in with Phillips screws immediately behind the gear leaver. If you don't mind looking in your Haynes manual for location on Tomcat it would help me a lot, maybe you could e mail me or post details later or in the morning. Then I'll ring the breakers yard to check he still has the car before making the trip. |
| Rob Bristow |
| Rob, that probably is not the unit you want - sorry. Have a look on Dieter's site (http://www.mgf-net.de/alarm_blipper/eblipper.htm) It appears to be the black box indicated on http://www.mgfcar.de/alarm_blipper/mgfkabelsalat.jpg - Dieter, can you confirm? |
| Rob Bell |
| Yep, i understood the silver box at the bottom of the fascia, behind the gear lever assembly was part of the SRS system (joggle sensor or something). SF |
| Scarlet Fever |
| Thanks for that! I was just thinking ( painful sometimes ) What about the keyfob ? so are we now saying that I will need both the keyfob and the black box from behind the consol ? Cheers Rob |
| Rob Bristow |
| Confirmed (checked the workshop manual): the alarm ECU is attached with two bolts to the underside of the heater control unit. It has two multiplugs that need to be unplugged before the 5AS can be removed. That metal box is the SRS diagnostic control box! D'oh! Rob, I'll check the R200 manual I have at home, but I imagine that the 5AS unit is in the same location in the Tomcat as it is on the F (the F/TF heater box is practically identical to the R200 unit) |
| Rob Bell |
| Hi Rob, I searched intensely through the R200 Haynes manual. The only reference to the fact that the car is fitted with an alarm immobiliser was some instructions on how to replace the key-fob battery!!! Argh - just reminded me why I hate modern Haynes manuals so much. I guess that the non-inclusion of the 5AS module - in any picture - I did look - or even in the wiring diagrams ("earthed through immobiliser ECU, not shown" is the only mention) is to prevent bad people from learning how to steal Rovers by circumventing the alarm system... So, sorry, can't be any further help - but I'd be nearly 100% certain that you'll find the unit located in the same place - namely bolted under the heater control box. Good luck, and do let us know how you get on with the transplant :o) |
| Rob Bell |
| Rob, Thanks for spending the time looking for that info. I'm still at 6's and 7's as the which way to jump but tend to think that having the VVC top end is just not worth the hassle, so will probably end up fitting my old head after having it skimmed and sticking to my own electrics / ECM etc which I know are working fine. I trained as a motor mechanic back in the 60’s so know what I’m doing with engines but as for modern electric’s *****! But from the manufactures point I suppose it’s a good way of making you have to go to the main dealer !! So if you know anyone who’s looking for a good VVC head complete with inlet manifold etc there could be one going here soon.. Cheers again. Rob |
| Rob Bristow |
This thread was discussed between 11/03/2003 and 14/03/2003
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