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MG MGF Technical - HGF? Help please!
| 1998 MGF 1.8i - sent in for MOT & 60K service less than two weeks ago (reputable East of Scotland MG dealer). Amongst other things, reported oil in cooling system. Suggested remedy was to drain system and replace fluid/anti-freeze, and "see how it goes". Work carried out and advised by garage to 'check coolant level every 3/4 days'. On second outing after service, cruising at c50-60mph when clouds of steam start belching out of engine. Some water loss on road, but by no means pouring out. Unable to determine where leak coming from. Car now returned to said dealer this morning on back of recovery vehicle, and awaiting a call from them with their diagnosis. No previous overheating problems, and temp gauge was at normal level when steam started emitting. Coolant reservoir virtually empty, except for an oily residue in bottom. Require some expert thoughts on what problem may be (HGF? especially after 'incorrect' bleeding of system?) and whether I can take them to task, as it seems too coincidental that this happened so soon after service??? Help! |
| D Brown |
Changing the coolant is not going to fix the cause, and oil in the water is a major symptom of HGF.. The fact that they done a 60k service and cam belt change and didnt replace the head gasket is unbelievable. I just hope the following two outings havent done any major damage !! I would say you definately have grounds to be angry especially as you told the buggers about the oil in the water... Screw them to the wall !!! STU |
| S.C. Dickens |
| This mightn't be any help to you at all, but my HGF ocurred within 2 weeks of the 60K service as well. Believe me, I moaned and ranted until I was blue in the face, but the garage would have none of it. |
| P Hudson |
| esp as they advised you there might be a problem, you might have saved some money having them both done at the same time, but I feel you might just have to 'take it on the chin' so to speak. Sorry Will |
| Will Munns |
| Thanks for responses so far. Should have said, the garage actually told me about the oil in the cooling system (rather than the other way round) but take your point about failing to cure the root cause. |
| D Brown |
| Yea but surely if you told them about the oil in the water they would have looked to see why, not just changed the coolant. No point filling a bucket with a hole in the bottom !!! STU |
| S.C. Dickens |
| Doe ! I thought you told them about the oil in the water... Tend to agree with Will in that case... STU Wokingham |
| S.C. Dickens |
| Do you know if the engine has had a HGF before? If it HAS, then there might be an explanation of oil in the water. A pointer would be the types of dowels between the head and the block: if they were steel then it has been changed). If the garage changed the coolant, then it is quite possible they mis-bled it and caused the HGF. If they got it wrong, then its their fault. There are perfectly simple ways of figuring out if the engine's got a HGF ("suck it and see" really wasn't good enough!): pressurise the cooling system and monitor it overnight. If it drops, then the coolant is going SOMEWHERE - on the F normally out over the alternator, but it could go into the oil or into a cylinder. They gave poor quality advice and should be liable for it. Neil. (PS I wouldn't "routinely" change a head gaskit even at the 60k service!) |
| Neil |
| Don't know if suffered HGF before - haven't owned it since new, but will ask garage to investigate along the lines you suggest. |
| D Brown |
| Hmmm, let me get this straight... You took the car in for the 60K service and they advised you that they had detected oil in the cooling system. This AFAIC is a major indicator of an imminent HGF, unless it had recently had one and there was still some residue left in the cooling system. The gasket separates the two cooling systems (oil/coolant) and if there is evidence of one in the other then this is the most likely cause - especially in an F as they are known to be a bit prone to this. So what are the best steps in this situation? (bl**dy great big ones!) ;-) Overnight monitoring under pressure would be my first suggestion as Niel has mentioned, failing this then i suppose inform the customer and get thier reaction would be next. If it were my car at this point i would authorise a replacement gasket (dial, dial, dial, "Hello Mike Satur!"), but of course if they don't tell you what it most likely is then you can't make this decision. Sending you out again seems a bit odd to me. With the information in thier possession i would say that an imminent HGF is very likely and by sending you away with a 'suck it and see' attitude thay are running the risk of serious engine damage. I suppose you could look at it as guaranteeing and maximising future works for the dealership, but this is feel is an overly cynical attitude. Very odd IMO. Good luck. SF |
| Scarlet Fever |
| I would also be inclined to get in touch with MGR Customer Care, they MAY be able to assist with the repair bill. Sure the car is out of warranty but it is a 'known problem'. I would also be pretty miffed with the garage if the garage had told you 'sorry sir we need to replace your head gasket' then all of the new oil, coolant cam belt change would have been done at once and wrapped up in a singe slightly larger bill. This way the garage are going to get double there money, let's face it they pretty much knew it was bound to happen, did they not do a pressure test....Grrrr! I get my car back from Techspeed tomorrow after fitting a new HG and a few extras. |
| tim woolcott |
| > 1998 MGF 1.8i - sent in for MOT & 60K service less than two weeks ago (reputable East of Scotland MG dealer). Hmmm. Last time I use N o b b l e d then (need to watch the name). Took mine down to Mike S. for 60K service Thursday last week for 60K service, general check over and ID of potential problems (new rad / coolant pipes / suspension stuff). Interestingly (and probably wholly unrelated), but a friend of mine had HGF after coolant replacement from above, but didn't tie two together (also happened 2 yrs ago so may be coincidence). I think them noticing oil in coolant, they should have at least mentioned the possibility of HGF. Could have checked for emissions gasses in coolant, etc. > new oil, coolant cam belt change would have been done at once Plus you've now got the possibility of emulsified oil in your rad / coolant pipes etc, but TBH if you've done a similar mileage to me, they're probably on the way out now anyway. Good luck with the dealer. They always struck me as being one of the better ones so kind on surprised at their 'warn and keep an eye on it' attitude, rather than doing it (though the repair was probably £650, so maybe felt they couldn't get away with repairing it until it'd gone). Let us know how you get on. Leigh |
| Leigh |
| I'd say it was pretty negligent of them to suggest you try it and see. I'm not a mechanic but I know oil in the coolant is a very good indication of HGF. Then again, does it matter if the HG is replaced before or after failing? Perhaps I'm being harsh - I know that I wouldnt like to hear "Give us 600 quid because we think your car might breakdown" Perhaps you can get them to foot some of the bill as good will gesture. |
| Russell |
| Partial update! After a bit of discussion with the garage yesterday, seems they wanted to be absolutely sure that there was a fault (i.e. if oil reappears in coolant after draining system and running car, there's a fault!), as apparently "it's not uncommon" for people to put oil in the cooling system by mistake. If that had happened, it's been there for 18 months since before I owned the car as I know for a fact I have never inadvertantly done this! Personally my view is they should have tested it themselves after draining system. Garage view is that there should not be any additional damage to engine as a result of driving vehicle in this condition, but I'm not so sure? Still waiting for official update on exact details of fault - what might I expect them to hit me with in terms of a repair bill??? (I'm sure they won't offer to do it free of charge, though I might put up a fight on that front!) |
| D Brown |
| "Garage view is that there should not be any additional damage to engine as a result of driving vehicle in this condition" -- err, apart from warping the head? |
| P Hudson |
| > cruising at c50-60mph when clouds of steam start belching out of engine Yep, warped head one potential problem. Not sure about bent valves / pistons (compressing water?), as sounds like yours went out rather than to a piston. Also oil emulsion in coolant pathways / radiator / coolant pipes another 'side effect'. > what might I expect them to hit me with in terms of a repair bill??? HG replacement (which isn't that much forward forward when doing a 5 year service), IRO £500 - £600 I expect, plus any skimming required. If the head is warped beyond tolerance, poss add another £750? Can anyone else confirm? Leigh |
| Leigh |
| >>it's not uncommon" for people to put oil in the cooling system by mistake<< Your garage seem to have some interesting ideas D! Is this really a common mistake, I can only imagine that you'd have to donate half, or all of your brain to science to make this sort of Homer-esque blunder. Doh! (_8() Jim |
| Jim Hosking |
| > it's been there for 18 months since before I owned the car as I know for a fact I have never inadvertantly done this As the service you were getting done was the 5 year service, and if you had the last one done at the same place, then coolant was changed 12 months ago (4th year service includes coolant change). So it's developed over the past year. Leigh |
| Leigh |
| The story continues.... Garage tell me clyinder head gasket needs replacing, but no other damage (e.g. due to running car etc). Total cost of job around £400 - haven't got a breakdown of parts/labour yet as I've only got a phone message with quote; will be phoning them later. Does this sound a reasonable cost for the work involved? Should I argue that if the work had been done whilst in for the service the labour time would have been reduced, hence reducing £400 estimate for HG replacement??? |
| D Brown |
| Latest position: Confirmed by garage as a 7-hour job (charged at £42 per hour plus VAT), but as a gesture of goodwill they are only billing me for 5 hours work (totalling £246.75 inc VAT) which if my high school maths still works means parts total is approx £150 inc VAT. Does this sound right? PS: Have also been in touch with MGR customer care, who were going to contact garage this morning. Not sure what I can expect from them... |
| D Brown |
| Hmmm. Mike's uprated gasket and dowells set is £26 + vat. You'll need coolant, and oil/filter change on top of that. Can't think what else they'd need to replace, so £150 for parts is a 'rip-off'. Phone 'em and ask where the £150 for parts is going. I suspect the £400 quote's been calculated on 7 hours labour. If not, are they replacing anything other than the gaskets? I note Mike charges about £460 incl. vat, so price is favourable. I'd suggest if there is no other damage, then if you can get it down to what it'd have cost if you had it done as part of the 5 year service, you're doing well. Let us know how you get on. Leigh |
| Leigh |
| Leigh, Thanks for your comments - breakdown of cost as follows (all excl VAT): Labour £215.00 (5 hrs @ £43ph) Head gasket £36.65 Man (Manifold???) joint £12.80 Exh Man Joint (??) £11.57 R Joint (??) £25.65 Anti-freeze (3 units) £7.80 Hose £28.68 So, yes, they have replaced parts other than HG. Having said that, on second outing after getting car back coolant is already black with oil, and I may be paranoid but I think the level has dropped a fraction. Phoned garage back (again!) who say oil is likely to be residue from before, and will drain system again for me tomorrow free of charge - only hope they don't charge me for more anti-freeze!!! Looks like I'm nearing a conclusion...fingers crossed! |
| D Brown |
| Sounds like you've got a good dealer overthere. "Hey Sir, we noticed that one of your wheels is missing. anyway, bye, see ya !!!" If the car is in for 60K service, you need to get service. If there's a problem, they need to inform you and make sure you understand the impact. And I think that the cooling system needs to be flushed after a HGF. >>> I think the level has dropped a fraction <<< Could be that there was still a small airbubble in the system. If you get your car back after the cooling change, turn the heater on (completely to the right) and start the engine. Keep it blowing for a while. Cheers, |
| Erik |
| Thanks for advice Erik - what will running the heater on hot achieve? Should I turn blower up to max as well? |
| D Brown |
| >what will running the heater on hot achieve? The hot/cold knob is a tap on the water pipe, turning fullt hot opens the tap fully and makes sure there is no air in the heater matrix >Should I turn blower up to max as well? Only if you are cold |
| Will Munns |
This thread was discussed between 07/04/2003 and 17/04/2003
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