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MG MGF Technical Laminova on MG-R 25 diesel BBS discussion at MG-Cars.info
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MG MGF Technical - Laminova on MG-R 25 diesel
| As promised, I changed the aux drive belt on the SO's MG-R 25 diesel today and took a photo and approx dimensions. The casting of the body is 17 cm long, with about another 7 cm each end for 90* right angle elbows. The elbows have non symmetrical spacing of the three fixing bolts. The remote thermostat is not easily visible, I would have had to remove the radiator to see it, but basically it has three large bore hoses, very similar if not the same as the TF, but in black plastic. I've got a couple of pictures, how do I post them? Anyone interested? PM? |
| Jerry Herbert |
| Could you email it to me? robert dot m dot bell at kcl dot ac dot uk Many thanks Jerry! :o) |
| Rob Bell |
| Rob, what are you interested in, Iīve got the 25/ZR on my EPC! the remote thermostat is at the left hand end of the cooler, screwed partially into the cooler. It is atually fitted IN the end cap. |
| David Peters |
| That's interesting David. We need the full list of parts, and start investigating this in earnst! I'm quite keen to get hold of all the necessary parts and investigate installing it on the F (as Carlos has proposed for the Elise!) |
| Rob Bell |
| Rob, Iīve made a copy of the parts listing and numbers. Where can I mail you at? cheers, david |
| David Peters |
| David, try robert dot m dot bell at kcl dot ac dot uk Cheers |
| Rob Bell |
| Done, cheers, david |
| David Peters |
| As a TF virgin, why are you trying the MG-R 25 diesel route? I thought the VVC had an oil/ water heat exchanger? If so, surely the bits will fit? |
| Jerry Herbert |
| yep, only the 160 BHp has it I believe |
| David Peters |
| Jerry, David is right, only the TF160 used a Mocal oil/water incooler as standard. The 25 diesel actually uses the superior Laminova water/oil cooler (has a much better efficiency) - and usually is pretty expensive. But the L-series diesel provides a cheap supply of second hand parts... :o) David, got the attachment, thanks. Looks as though there are two oil cooler assembles used on the 25. Quite a difference in price, but I suspect we want the more expensive of the two (typical). Is there any VIN related information as far as you can see? |
| Rob Bell |
| Rob, I think when I looked at this a while ago some models (automatics) have a cooler for the Gearbox as apposed to the engine oil. |
| Steve Ratledge |
| You could be right there Steve - but the EPC document that David sent through didn't appear to indicate this? Need to do some more digging; the more expensive of the two looks almost identical to the Laminova employed by Eliseparts... |
| Rob Bell |
| youīll find n°1 in cars upto VIN SN471564 n°13 as of VIN n° SN471565 (thereīs no date unfortunately ;-( ) additionaly you need PBP 101200 and PBP 103150 for oil pipes from and to the cooler. From the other parts, pick the latest number, which is the last revision of that specific part (2,7,11,12) 8,9,10 have no revisions. good luck. But, the cooler is attached to the bearing ladder. L-series have a different one for sure. So it wonīt be a straight fit. Youīll also need to remove existing stat and bypas, as these are respectively in the end caps of the cooler. good luck in the scrap yards |
| David Peters |
| Thanks David. Use this as a remote thermostat in place of the standard thermostat perhaps? Mounting wise, well, I guess it was always going to be somewhat different to the L-series, so no problem. Will doubtless cause plenty of head scratching! :o) |
| Rob Bell |
| >>Use this as a remote thermostat in place of the standard thermostat perhaps?>> Didnīt check where it goes on the block. I reckon it fits at rear end, where the stat is now, which is moved in front of the cooler. So still at the "incoming side" coolant side unfortunately. |
| David Peters |
| OK, see it now!! Pity I can't "borrow" the kit from the OH's MG-R 25 diesel to try. Sounds like a great idea as the remote thermostat is piped directly onto the cooler. Just need the bits from a wreck to work out the plumbing logistics. Is anyone actively going to follow this up? Sorry to be slow on the uptake!!! |
| Jerry Herbert |
| Jerry, I may do this - but whether I do this now, with the F up at Tech-speed awaiting a replacement head gasket, and a few other 'goodies', or later when funds allow, I don't know. Maybe I ought to phone up a Rover breaker and get a quote on the cooler? David, I don't think that we'll be mounting the oil cooler in exactly the same place as it is in the R25. That being the case, there is no worries regarding thermostat location :o) |
| Rob Bell |
| Just ordered a MG-R 25 diesel oil/water intercooler together with remote thermostat cluster from a scrappy. Cost about Ģ45 + post. I'll have a good poke around when it comes, and let you guys know if it looks promising! |
| Jerry Herbert |
| Sounds good Jerry - who did you use? 45 quid is very reasonable money! It would have 5 times that much to buy new... BTW did you also order the oil filter sandwich plate with the oil take off for the cooler? |
| Rob Bell |
| Keep on digging I am v interested in the out come of this thread. :-) |
| Steve Ratledge |
| Box came TNT this am. Unfortunately I'm into replacing fencing panels today before the weather breaks again today. However, it looks good!! There is a pressure sensitive 82*C thermostat at one end in the plastic elbow. I can see the "laminaova" fins on the oil side by peering through the ports. It all looks clean and "workable". I just need to take some pics (Rob again?) and explore the unit carefully. The nice man at Roverbreakers.com supplied every hose attached to it as well, so could be a source of adaptable hoses. There is no sandwich plate on a MG-R 25 diesel, but they are about Ģ10 to buy. If it comes together, I would go for proper Goodrich oil hose and fittings, I don't trust jubilee clips and hose etc! It may be Monday before I can spend much time on it as I'm working on my 4x4 in preparation for a motorsport event on Sunday, however I'm childishly excited!!! |
| Jerry Herbert |
| Superb Jerry! Looking forward to seeing the pix. Which version of the cooler did you ask for? |
| Rob Bell |
| I don't know. Since our car is a '51, I said 3 years old and he said "the latest one then". Finished the fencing now, but got to go out now. Might have a look this evening, strip it down a bit and take some pics. Same address Rob? The 82*C thermostat is removable with care, the "O" rings seem OK to re-use. Looks like a goer if I can work out what goes where and how to plumb it in. I was going to go for the QED remote at BPR's advice, but this might kill two birds with one stone. I think I might need some more brain power applied here!! |
| Jerry Herbert |
| Yes please - same acount (KCL). Carlos' PRT fitting site may provide some inspiration, although the Elise cooling system has some differences to that found in the F - particularly regarding the heater circuit... http://web.tiscali.it/elise_s1/fitting2.htm |
| Rob Bell |
| Pics on pm to you now. |
| Jerry Herbert |
| Received - thanks Jerry - and posted here: http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/coolant/oil_cooler.htm Any thoughts folks? |
| Rob Bell |
| It just happens that I have a Laminova (24cm type) oil cooler sitting in my garage (not as cheap as you breakerīs part though ;-( ) Checkin the engine bayn, I figured, that combined with the remote stat (i.e. QED), I wonīt fit at the water exit port. Also, the elise seems to have more space between the bulkhead and the engine to install it. So my guess is to install the remote stat as Carl did (in front, near the radiator). Than it might be possible to install the oil cooler as depicted on robīs site. Which is the smaller type I guess (16cm overall) cheers, david |
| David Peters |
| Thanks to Carlo, I think that we have a way forward on the installation procedure for this oil cooler in the K-series cooling circuit - as Carlo says, treat it in exactly the same way as you would a remote thermostat installation (albeit, one with plumbing for the oil circuit). Jerry, what we probably need to do is look at the fitting instruction that Carlo has prepared for the Elise, and the schematics for the TF PRT installation - http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/common_problems/HGF_pages/HGF_images/TF_PRT_circuit_complete.jpg Note that we'll also need to remove the existing thermostat, and replace it with a restrictor ring, as shown. |
| Rob Bell |
| David, thanks for your thoughts there - and you are right about space limitations. But there is some space above the bell-housing that could be used? Not sure about how the oil cooler will be physically installed though? Jerry, do you have dimensions for the oil cooler you've got? |
| Rob Bell |
| Might be of interest about dimensions ? Parts catalogue shows two different Oilcoolers and the earlier PBC101110 looks smaller then the latest PBC101260A. http://www.mgfcar.de/epc.zr/16313.htm (the above site is the only from ZR currently, don't expect more) |
| Dieter |
| Thanks Dieter - that's the same page that David sent me. And yes, you are right, the two are different. The one that Jerry has got is the upper assembly (13). Dieter, are you planning to complete the EPC for 75/ZT? If not, then perhaps this part of the project could be handed over to interested individuals? Personally, I think that having access to the EPC for the other models is quite useful for little projects like this - figuring out whether parts from one model can be used on another! :o) |
| Rob Bell |
| >Dieter, are you planning to complete the EPC for 75/ZT? No, for sure I woun't due to lack of know how and massive amount of works with it. Also not with the other models. Parts conversion is another question. Let me know if someone aims for any model. |
| Dieter |
| Agreed - the MGF/TF EPC is a fearsome task in itself! |
| Rob Bell |
| Problem is, at the hight of the water outlet, the bulkhead clearance narrows as 1/2 of the fuel tank is positioned there and becomes wider in that area. If it is fitted above the bell housing, it would be in a horizontal layout right? Could positioning it vertical have any ifluence on air entrapment, that could not be bleeded? |
| David Peters |
| I've seen Charles' R25 Laminova set up in his Elise - its awsome piece of work, where he's done quite a stunning amount of fabrication in alloy - but that is off the point - what he's done is to mount it horizontally. This is the version without the thermostat, and he doesn't seem to have problems with coolant bleeding. But I think that you are right David to air that as a concern... Thinking caps on chaps! |
| Rob Bell |
| just crawled from underneath my car *LOL*, which is where I spend part of the afternoon. quite some place to spend the last day of my hollidays not? Anyway, I took some pictures as well. Tried to fit in my oil cooler in different locations. Problem at the water outlet is that it has a Y piece (n°5 on EPC) that has a tee going to the heater matrix. Fitting the oil cooler there poses a problem as the distance from the water outlet to the tee junction is real short to fit the cooler. I believe the Elise doesnīt have this Y-piece. The tee to the heater is somewhat further on the return path to the rad, which leaves the more space at the engineīs water outlet or along the coolant pipes at the bulkhead, which run horizontally, to the side sills of the car rather than in the middle of the car as with the F/TF. compare http://web.tiscali.it/elise_s1/elise_FL.gif to http://www.mgfcar.de/epc/mj0453d.cgm.gif youīll see what I mean. This all adds to my opinion that this area leaves little space for at least my equipment. You could fit a remote stat though. I then thought about fitting it at the back of the engine, fitting longer bolts to the ignition coil (not actually bolts, canīt find the english wordings, theyīr threaded but donīt have the hexagonal ends). Thighthen the coil up with bolts and fit clamps at the end (the ones that have a female thread) to hold the oil cooler. Cut out a part of the steel piping to the thermostat and replace it with necessary bends/flexible piping to and from the oil cooler. You could also fit is perfectly to the subframe. I have a picture with the cooler laying on the frame. But I prefer having the cooler moving along with the engine. cheers, david |
| David Peters |
| Good work, sounds like a fun time! I've given my bit of kit some thought today. I think I'll try any mods in two parts. 1) to fit a PRT off the R25 diesel with the oil/water exchanger. I had asked the guy I got the cooler from for the PRT as well, but I must have confused him! I'll try again to see if I can get the missing PRT off the same engine. 2) fit up the oil part, which is the easy bit, if all works out OK with the PRT. My thoughts are that the bleed past the thermostat is too small. It is a 2mm hole with a one way S/S ball valve, not enough water will pass through surely for a working bypass? With respect Rob, I think all the flow is in the "red" direction as you have cleverly depicted. I think, without access to a R25 diesel workshop manual, that the thermostat on the cooler is only too allow the water to heat up first. But why? The early model did not have a thermostat, so there must have been some fault etc that made MG-R add the thermostat. Any one know of any history here? I think it is academic, as I can't see why the cooler can't be "inserted" into the output from the cylinder head. The object of this exercise is surely to try to balance the oil and water temperatures through heat cycles. I can confirm the alloy casting is 70 cm long, the 90* elbow is 5.0 cm to centre of water stub, and 6.5 cm overall. So total length is 70+(2x6.5cm) Height from feet is 10.50 cm. I'm going to try and order a second 90* elbow, part number PBQ100010A and a couple of new "O" rings, part number LUE10010A to get over the twin water pipes at the other end. Rob, I've got another better pic of the 90* elbow minus the thermostat, same destination? I've also stripped the cooler right down, washed it out, and reassembled the unit. There was very little except clean oil! Lovely piece of work. Sorry for the long message, as a TF virgin of 10 months, I can't quiet work out why I've got so involved in modifying my lovely TF135!!! |
| Jerry Herbert |
| Jerry, I am sorry, but you got it wrong. The "thing" you have is actually one oil cooler and a Pressure Relief Thermostat in one device. Rover used this instead of 2 distinct bits to cut costs (IIRC on http://www.laminova.se you could get this info). So no chance of getting another thermostat from the same car.... the small jiggle valve is there to prevent airlocks, not to ensure any coolant flow. about the working principle, itis like the simple PRT. hot coolant comes out of engine and flows through a T joint to the cooler/stat. it enters in the inner plastic pipe and hits the thermostat bulb. with cold water the stat remains closed and the water flows back between the outside of the plastic pipe and the ali core, exits the device and reaches the pump to restart the circle. with hot water the stat opens and some coolant comes inside from the other side (fed from the rad), flows on the outer duct and gets back to the engine. if the temp gets really hot, the inner tube is shut by the metal dish with 4 small holes and all the coolant is forced through the radiator. on a different note... if you intend to fit it, I think the pics made by Dave Livingstone about the PRT with hoses attached could be of some help. Personally I like more the "old" setup, as Charles from Hungary has successfully implemented... Cheers Carlo |
| Carlo |
| Carlo, cheers, I'm warming to your suggestion!!! OK, OK, I was working in the dark as my MG-R 25 diesel is very cramped in the front and I can't see much at all. Also, I was working off a Haynes manual which showed the older type of cooler and also a separate PRT. Apologies Rob, you were dead right!! Why didn't you tell me you all knew this beforehand!!!!! One thing though, I'm sure the disc with the four holes is in constant spring loaded contact with the end of the plastic bypass pipe. I've tried hot water on the stat to watch the action, and I think it acts as a restrictor when the stat is fully open. As water takes the easiest flow path, it runs round the radiator and back to the cooler. So not actually a PRT? As David said, location is the problem. Need a bit of time with the lid off working out options. Also feel the cooler is better off mounted on the block to cut down on hose movement. Oil side is easy. If/ when I get round to fixing, do you want some pics Rob? (assuming it all turns out OK) Carlo, could you e-mail me privately, or whatever, about the two guys you mentioned at the end of your previous post please? I may pick up some more useful tips!! |
| Jerry Herbert |
| <I'm sure the disc with the four holes is in constant spring loaded contact with the end of the plastic bypass pipe.> there should be a 2-3 mm gap between the disc and the plastic tube, with the stat closed. with the stat wide open the disc works, as you described, as a restrictor (some coolant does still pass through the small holes and, if there is a lot of pressure, the spring loaded disc will open ). One of the two guys (Dave Livingstone) usually reads this BBS, as he is an MGF owner. About Charles (AKA Yasec), you can find him (and the pics mentioned by Rob) on http://seloc.org (you need to register). Cheers Carlo |
| Carlo |
| I believe I might find the time over the weekend to try a preliminary install. Thatīs the cooler without oil lines etc. just trying to fix it to the block in the position I mentioned. Iīm not intending to take out the intake manifold though, draining the liquids and all, so if I canīt reach it from below, it wonīt be happening. Just want to see it fit, piping should not be a big issue after that, cheers, david |
| David Peters |
| >> I then thought about fitting it at the back of the engine, fitting longer bolts to the ignition coil (not actually bolts, canīt find the english wordings, theyīr threaded but donīt have the hexagonal ends). Thighthen the coil up with bolts and fit clamps at the end (the ones that have a female thread) to hold the oil cooler. << I think you mean studs David? Fingers crossed you can get this suggestion to work - sounds very tidy! :o) Good luck with the preliminary install - and don't forget your camera! Carlo, have you put Charles' pix on your site yet? I can't believe the effort he went to, and the superb results he got! :o) Very very impressive! |
| Rob Bell |
| Jerry, The photo that Carlo was talking about (I think) is this one http://www.mgs-on-track.com//images/uploads/PCH002960_Top_Hose_assembly__PCH002970_Bottom_Hose_assemb1.JPG Hope this helps. I'm a coward and just got the TF160 oil cooler retrofitted along with the MGR PRT thermostat. |
| Dave Livingstone |
| Thanks Dave/ Carlo, got that pic a few months ago. I think I've got enough to make a go of it now! |
| Jerry Herbert |
| Rob, I guess you saw Yasecīs install. Thatīs where I envisge installing the oil cooler. But I had no such impressing piping work in mind. |
| David Peters |
| David, I am not sure that many people would be able to undertake quite such an impressive bit of fabrication as Charles has with that cooler installation! Should work very well in that position I would have thought. BUT it would be fairly hard to install in this position? Might be easier in the position used for the TF PRT? |
| Rob Bell |
| But I canīt see the ignition coil on his pictures. Should be in the same place as on the F right? |
| David Peters |
| Sorry, itīs an S2, so ignition coils are on the camshaft. Now thatīs whatI call an advantage...for this particular application ;-) |
| David Peters |
| At a length of 70cm, I honestly doubt it will fit there! Iīv got two pictures of my cooler in that position (right next to it actually) and it almost protrudes underneath the car and thatīs only 24cm ! |
| David Peters |
| 70cm long? Wow, I hadn't realised it was that long! |
| Rob Bell |
| Hehe. Slight typo there!! Casting is 17 cm long + two plastic elbows = 30 cm overall. Think it might fit now!!! |
| Jerry Herbert |
| Phew! 170mm seems much more like it! :o) |
| Rob Bell |
| Much better indeed ;-) |
| David |
This thread was discussed between 25/07/2005 and 12/08/2005
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