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MG MGF Technical - performance internals for the k-series

where do i buy performance parts for my 1.8i k-series! Im after some bigger valves tbh do i need anything else! Also after performance replacement piston rings and anything else uprated internal wise!
Nick Lewis

Mmmm Bigger valves....? A slippery slope. You'll first need to open the valve seats and throats of the inlet and exhaust ways, and then it depends what size valves you're aiming for. There is little point fitting larger valves if the head is not able to flow suffient air through the inlet and ehaust tract. It's worth looking at www.dvapower.com

Paul Ivey produces probably the best valves
With new valves you should have up-rated :
Valve springs
Valve guides
Cam shafts

Now for the bottomless, bottom end, pit.....

Internals:
QED are probably the people to contact:
http://www.qednet.demon.co.uk/rk/background.htm#
Pistons & Rings
Con Rods
Crank
Bearings
Cylinder liners
Larger stretch bolts

You should have the engine balanced too.

Standard engines are pretty good for 170bhp, new trophy 160 engines are good for 185bhp (they already have some up-rated parts) so if you are going to up-grade the internals you can go for some pretty radical power figures, to do this you will need:

Multiple trottle bodies - Jenvey
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/

and a new 3D programmable ecu
www.emeraldm3d.com

With suitable head flow work you could have an engine with a good 220+ bhp.

Now you have to think about the strength of the gearbox and clutch, and brakes and suspension.......


So, how far do you want to go.....?
tim woolcott

Have a read of these:

http://members.aol.com/DVAPower/
http://members.aol.com/DVAndrews/kengine.htm
Steve Ratledge

160bhp engines use up rated bottom end bearings - and these are actually available from your local MG Rover dealer. They're essential for any engine that revs routinely above 7500 rpm. Part number is LFB000150 (and are colour coded according to grade thickness).

Alternative liners are also available - from the 1.8 Turbo (these are, I'm told, being standardised across the K-series range - but are about 35 quid each from MGR).

Pistons and rods are available from a number of sources - QED, Minister etc - but I'd probably start off chatting to Dave Andrews (as Steve quotes above) - as he can often source parts very competitively. :o)

Nick, it sounds as though FOO is going to get a very thorough overhaul! Has Jason indicated what pistons and rods are fitted to this engine? Might be worth investing in some accralite pistons and getting engine internals rebalanced at Vibration Free (only costs about 100 quid - superb value!)
Rob Bell

>Part number is LFB000150 (and are colour coded according to grade thickness).

Interesting, didn't know about :)
LFB000150100 blue
LFB000150200 red
LFB000150300 yellow
Used to be listed in old parts catalogue @
R400/R45/MG ZS/R75 MG ZT/R25/ MG ZR Series Engine 1800 Petrol & Turbo 4 Cylinder

Regards
Dieter
Dieter K.

Dieter, does that parts catalogue list the turbo liner part number (I don't have that one)?

Cheers
Rob Bell

;)

No Idea what this means, but

R400 lists:
----------
LCJ100170200 Liner-engine cylinder - Red, grade A
LCJ100650 Liner-engine cylinder - Red, grade A
LCJ100170100 Liner-engine cylinder - Blue, grade B
LCJ100660 Liner-engine cylinder - Blue, grade B
LCJ100610100 Liner-engine cylinder - Blue, grade B
LCJ100610200 Liner-engine cylinder - Red, grade A
LCJ000020 Liner-engine cylinder - Red, grade A
LCJ000050 Liner-engine cylinder - single grade

ZT&R75
--------
LCJ000060 Liner-engine cylinder

R200 etc
---------
LCJ000020 Liner-engine cylinder - Red, grade A

*except Mexico* ??
LCJ000050 Liner-engine cylinder - single grade
*Mexico ZR*
LCJ000060 Liner-engine cylinder

*MPI*
LCJ100650 Liner-engine cylinder - Red, grade A

*MPI*
LCJ100170200 Liner-engine cylinder - Red, grade A
LCJ100610200 Liner-engine cylinder - Red, grade A
------------

What about piston kits ?
They have the same multiple P/N variations in above models.
Dieter K.

... and from memory.
Aren't there different injectors aswell ?
I remember standard are black coloured, other are blue coloured.
Dieter K.

Interesting.
is there a manual online for ALL the Rover K engines (including the turbo)?
also a table where you could get the rated flow of each injector (black, grey, blue, etc.)
Picquart martin

well FOO accorrding to jason is running around 190bhp on standard internals other thand the ported and flowed head/exhaust manifold and the 280deg cams!! She will also rev to 9500rpm.
Thanks for the replys!! can anyone make me a list of the parts they would fit to my engine? Oh and it already has the throttle bodies and a gems ecu!
Nick Lewis

>>well FOO accorrding to jason is running around 190bhp on standard internals other than the ported and flowed head/exhaust manifold and the 280deg cams!!

I'd keep away from 9,500 revs then! I imagine that the GEMS have a rev limit parameter - if so I'd put it down to no more than 7,500. Dave Walker who runs Emerald would be a good person to talk to, as well as Dave Andrews (previously recommended in this thread). Of course, the GEMS is a competitor to the Emerald 3MD ECU, but then Dave is very friedly and I'm sure he won't hold that against you :-)

It's a shame you're over in South Wales and so far away from Norfolk, as we're all off to Dave Walker's rolling road on Saturday. It would have been good to get FOO on the road and have DW give you some face to face advice.
Dave Livingstone

Wheres the best place to get the new valves fitted and maybe have a little more work done on the head?
Nick Lewis

Me thinks that you ought to be spending some cash on the con rods and pistons before they decide to exit sideways before you even think about any more power!
Will Munns

good point how much money are we talking for these?
Nick Lewis

Jay was running standard internals on an engine running up to 190bhp???! Lucky it hasn't grenaded then!!!

Nick, the people you need to talk to are the following:

1. Dave Andrews - he's the cylinder head guy - and will almost certainly be able to help you out with new valves etc.
2. Dave Walker - he's the engine management chap who we're seeing this Saturday (he owns the Emerald Rolling Road) - seriously, if you can try and make it, it will almost certainly be worth your while.
3. Steve Smith (Vibration Free) - you're going to need to have the whole engine balanced to remain reliable at engine speeds of 8500rpm.

Parts list wise - here's a (non-comprehensive) summary of what you'll need:
1. Forged pistons and rods (Accralite and Arrow are, IIRC, the recommended sources, respectively)
2. Upgraded bottom end bearings (part numbers as above)
3. Consider a steel crankshaft - or at a minimum have your existing crank balanced (and if you're doing that, you ought as well get all the reciprocating parts balanced too)
4. Standard liners ought to be okay - but if you're rebuilding the engine anyway, then you might as well opt for the turbo liner.

Dieter - not clear whether there is a listing for the 1.8T there or not?
Rob Bell

Unfortunately not in the way you'd like.
Items are in 11 different sections for ZT K-1.8 turbo.
Dieter K.

You will appreciate that I'm a little out of date since I left Rover Powertrain about 4 years ago. However don't waste your money, there is nothing wrong with the standard K series bottom end for a naturally aspirated engine revving to 7500 rpm. The uprated big end shell is probably a copper-lead replacement for the standard aluminium tin. I did the calculations its not required to cope with the loadings you will get for NA. The crank is plenty strong enough too, but may have a problem with high speed (> 7500rpm)dynamics issues unless the flywheel/clutch is lightened. Rods no problem either upto 7500 rpm. The hydraulic tappets will struggle to go any faster anyhow.
The K was designed as a 75mm bore 1300 cc engine and is limmited as far as air flow is concerned by there not being a big enough distance between the valve seat and spring seat. KV6 and VVT have the large valve head (with larger ports) and you won't do much by going any bigger than that. There are probably some gains by fettling and making sure the manifolds line up without a step. The 135 ps comes with a 9.25 mm x 252 deg inlet cam as opposed to the standard 8.8 mm x 244 deg. The exhaust retains the 8.8 mm x 244 profile (incidentally I designed it). For normal road use I wouldn't deviate from this.
Paul Hollingworth

Paul that is very very interesting. Are you saying that the 135 inlet cam is the same as the standard exhaust cam for the VVC?
Steve Ratledge

Paul I am making referance to Rob site about the K series, specifically the bit about the 135 version.

http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/engines/index.htm
Steve Ratledge

Nick, when you say NA, did you see the figures he was quoting:

>190bhp on standard internals other thand the ported and
>flowed head/exhaust manifold and the 280deg cams!! She
>will also rev to 9500rpm.

So when you say NA what is you ceiling on BHP (obviously he is far past your RPM ceiling already!
Will Munns

Good to read your comments Paul - thanks for taking the time to post here :o)

Nick has an engine that will rev considerably more than 7500 (not sure I believe 9500 with hydraulic tappets either - and the power claim of 190 bhp is somewhat optimistic with the BP270H cam) - hence the recommendation for the uprated bottom end bearings, and the advice to get the bottom end properly balanced: I gather that so doing this the standard crank can be retained :o)

>> The 135 ps comes with a 9.25 mm x 252 deg inlet cam as opposed to the standard 8.8 mm x 244 deg. The exhaust retains the 8.8 mm x 244 profile (incidentally I designed it). <<

That's interesting! Will have to go back out into the garage and measure the 135 cams I have sitting on my bench once again! The figures on the webpage were taken from the TF workshop manual, and a cursory measurement confirmed the 9.5mm lift quoted...
Rob Bell

>190bhp on standard internals other thand the ported and
>flowed head/exhaust manifold and the 280deg cams!!

Oops, sorry for doubting the power claim Nick - just spotted the 280 degree duration on the cams - I presume that the engine is also on solid lifters?
Rob Bell

Rob, I'll bring my set of 135 cams along on Saturday. My vernier gauge is not the best so if you can bring yours we can have a verification session.
Steve Ratledge

Okay - that's a good plan Steve. Also it would be worth checking to see if there is a difference between the inlet and outlet cams as Paul indicates - but from what I've read and seen, the two are the same???
Rob Bell

Rob, I have remeasured every lobe on both cams. In every case the Base Circle Diameter was 30.0mm The Overall Height was 39.5 (99% of the time. I have the odd reading that was between 39.5 & 39.6mm).

See http://www.pipercams.co.uk/NewPiperWeb/redesign/TechAdvice.html for definitons,

So for both these cams the lift was 9.5mm.

The cams are stampted LG0000300 - can you or Dieter do a parts look up. THX
Steve Ratledge

"the original hydraulic lifters were replaced by solid ones with cosworth shims"
So do i need to uprate the internals? also would i benifit from the bigger valves that i am getting put in?Im confused! ;-)
Nick Lewis

Oh and i do beleive jason on it'll rev to 9500rpm ive had it rev off the clock (very few times, in fear of blowing it up) he also claims doing 150mph but i think i need to get the front splitter bought and put back on before i try attempting those kinds of speeds! lol!
Nick Lewis

Hey I didn't design the 9.something cam, my successor Keith did, he told me it was a 9.25. From memory the clearance circle radius is 15.086. The opening ramp height is 0.075. We at Austin always qoute the lift above the opening ramp. I thought he said that it was only the inlet cam that changed. You can't fit a higher lift cam in place of the 8.8 mm lift cam without changing the valve spring. The old one is LGL10008 which was only designed for 8.2 mm lift but we pushed it to 8.8. The new spring LGL100024 is common with the Landrover STORM diesel and VVT (I think). All my records on K series are still in Longbridge, so I'm doing this from memory
Paul Hollingworth

Paul, We are not arguing with you. We are just very interested. A few of us are looking at the 135 cams as a possible upgrade for the original 8.8/244 deg cams. So your comments adn thourghts are very welcome.

I have heard something about the springs being changed from the 118 to the 135 engine, the part numbers are alway usefull.

Strangely ~ Piper etal do not insist on uprated springs untill the lift is greater than 10mm. Kent go even thruther and say that their 10.79/10.94mm lift cams are also ok with the standard springs. However, it sounds like there are different types of standard springs!
Steve Ratledge

Paul your comment about how Austin measure the lift is very telling. With a vernier gauge this would be very difficult to do as determining exactly where the opening ramp starts and finished is nearly impossible (well to my untrained eye lol).


Do you know what Piper/Kent etc use when they quote a lift value? If it Overall height - BCD? or do they use the same method as Austin?

Cheers
Steve
Steve Ratledge

Steve,

unfortunately LG0000300 seams to new for my old files, or it's not a _valid_ part number
Dieter K.

Hmm at a push it could be LGC000300
Steve Ratledge

Steve, I can confirm your lift measurements (had a look on my cams last night: 9.5mm lift on both inlet and exhaust). Paul, as Steve says, it's more out of interest that we're asking you - plus, as ramp angles go, it is probably somewhat tricky for us amateurs to measure...

Paul, your point regarding the valve springs is well made - and tallys what Steve has been told in the past. Up to this point I've not been able to investigate any further due to the lack of part numbers - but now you've provided LGL10008 and LGL100024 for the standard 8.8 and 9.5 lift cam, we've got something more to work on!

Interesting that Piper don't specify a different valve spring for their BP270H cams (which have rather more lift and duration than the TF135 cam)... Pushing things a little too far perhaps? Would be great to get Dave Andrews' thoughts on this.

Nick, >> "the original hydraulic lifters were replaced by solid ones with cosworth shims"
So do i need to uprate the internals? also would i benifit from the bigger valves that i am getting put in? <<

Yes, as the engine you've got is being developed as a high power at high engine speed power unit. To this end, breathing is everything (both inlet and exhaust) - so larger valves will certainly help. Large port diameters and large valves aren't great for torque, but with some careful development, it should be possible to achieve 200+ bhp and 160 lb.ft torque - but for this you'll need a rev limit of 8500rpm, and uprated lower end bearings.
Rob Bell

You can still determine the lift the way you describe, but the quoted value will be 0.075mm less than you measure.
Paul Hollingworth

>> Hmm at a push it could be LGC000300 <<

Steve, Roger's found the cam part number listed as LGC 000280 (no price quoted).

Pitty the EPC is as clear as mud.
Rob Bell

Thanks for the look-up Roger.

The number stampted on my set of cams definatly ends in 0300. Rob do you know whats stampted on your 135 cams?

It would also be very intresting to know when the springs changed from LGL10008 to LGL100024.
Steve Ratledge

I'll have a look Steve.

Regarding the valve springs, can't find LGL100024. The VVC valve spring is listed as LGL100460.

The change date for the springs is not at all clear in the EPC. No surprise there then. In fact, when Rog looked through it, he found exactly as I did: there is no apparent record of a change from LGL10008! Taking the EPC at face value, it would appear that the TF135 head continues to use LGL10008.

Is there light at the end of this particular tunnel?

Looks as though I'll have to strip a valve spring from the 135 head and compare it to a standard LGL10008 valve spring. Can't measure the spring rates though.
Rob Bell

This thread was discussed between 16/02/2005 and 24/02/2005

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