MG-Cars.info

Welcome to our Site for MG, Triumph and Austin-Healey Car Information.

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG MGF Technical - Serious problem...can anyone help please ??

Hi everyone,

Can anybody help me please ?? I have a bit of a problem...

Background is... 97 VVC, one previous owner, full documented dealer history, 49k, serviced regularly, recent cambelt change upon purchase. Bought 6 months ago, private sale.

Been looked after and respected by myself the new owner. Highly revved once engine and oil temperature (60) normal.

Problem: about a week ago, engine started to be noiser when idling and when moving, checked oil and coolant: all normal, no change or increase in oil or engine temp.

Have taken it to one MG dealer who informs me that one, possibly two valves in one of the cams in the VVC unit has gone (nearest the belt). Has quoted me 1k to repair. Went to another dealer for second opinion who has said the pistons have gone and has quoted nearly 2k to repair.

I'm not mecanically minded and are a little unsure of what to do or who to believe about the problem. Before I go ahead and get any repairs done, can anyone tell me or have an idea as to what is wrong with the car. When the boot is opened the noise seems to be coming from the right hand side of the top of the engine (agreed by friend who works on jags) and he seems to agree with the first dealers diagnosis. There is no smoke coming from the car when drving and there does not seem to be any loss in power. Other than the noise (noticeable from inside when driving) the car seems to be fine.

Could anyone please help as to what it could be ?? Only had the car 6 months, I love it and just want it fixed and back on the road. I'd pay anything to have it fixed but would be nice to know exactly what the problem is before I agree on any repairs.

Thanking anyone in advance for any help or information.

Tony (very worried !!)
Tony Lynch

Very seriously I would get in ouch with Mike Satur, link at the top of the page or Techspeed, Lemington Spa.

Mike very well be responding to the thread mighty soon so see what advice he can give, better still try to get the car to him somehow.

tim woolcott

Difficult to diagnose remotely on the forum, but i have had a valve go on my 1.8i so i know what it sounds like (and the damage it can cause).

A camshaft has egg shaped lobes on it which depress cam followers and these open the spring loaded valves. The timing of this opening and closing is critical to avoid the top of the piston coming into contact with an open valve.

The VVC has 5 camshafts, a long exhaust camshaft that operates all 8 valves on the 'exit' side of the engine and 4 short camshafts, split into two pairs with a pair of lobes on each. Effectively 1 inlet camshaft per cylinder.

It sounds to me from your description that the problem is with the camshaft/valve assembly for cylinders 1 or 2. If it is for cylinder 1 then it will be a cheaper repair than for cylinder 2 due to the arrangement. The camshaft for cylinder 2 is half the length of the engine with a quarter-length camshaft slotted on the end for cylinder 1. So camshaft 1 rotates on the end of camshaft 2. Damage to cam 1 may only involve relacing this camshaft, damage to cam 2 will probably mean replacing both.

Possible problems:

IMO the most likely problem is a stuck cam follower. These are metal cylinders that 'float' in oil. As the cam lobe makes contact with the follower it is moves downwards, depressing the valve against the spring, opening the valve and allowing fuel/air into the combustion chamber. The followers have been known to become stuck, especially if the engine is run with low oil levels. This causes wear on the follower and the camshaft lobe, it may also damage the valves, guides and springs. The worst case is that the spring has gone and the valve drops into the engine damaging the piston. Best case is that you have caught it early and all that needs replacing is the follower and maybe the camshaft for cylinder 1.

Just a guess, based upon the description. Hopefully Dave Andrews or Mike Satur will read this and post a more educated opinion.

Good luck

SF
Scarlet Fever

I worked on the VVT mechanism and there are no valves in it, so don't let the first pirate anywhere near your car. It could be a severe case of valve stick or Tappet sink but I doubt it. Get it to a specialist, Satur is a good one. First check that the bolt in the middle of the pulley is still tight, do that before you run the engine again, you should be able to prise the plastic cambelt open enough to do that. The sliders in the mech can get noisey when worn, but I can't see this happening suddenly. I don't know how much a VVT unit is to buy but I'd guess £100 and diagnosis and remidy could take 4 hrs labour, so you are probably looking at a bill of less than £500. It could just be stuck on short period setting with a problem with the hydraulic actuator.
Please let us know how you get on.
Paul Hollingworth

Sorry should say 'cambelt cover'
Paul Hollingworth

Thanks for your help chaps. I'm not completely mechanically minded but interesting thoughts from your replies.

The second dealer reckons he's going to have to replace all four pistons which sounds logical but I have another question if I may:

If I allow this dealer to change the pistons
will he require to take off the cyliinder head completely ?? Thus confirming whether or not the original diagnosis by the other dealer is correct ???

SF, in your reply (thanks by the way !) what you were explaining in paragraph 4 & 5, would this be the diagnosis that dealer 1 explained about the valves in one of the cams ?? (he said the air inlet one nearest the belt). Apologies for the questions but I'm trying to visualise all this whilst trying to understand it !!

Many thanks for any help you can give me ??

Tony
Tony Lynch

Paul,

Thanks for your commments. Apologies if I seem a bit short on knowledge (being new to all this) but VVT Variable Valve Timing ??

Educate me if you will please !!

Cheers,

Tony
Tony Lynch

If its "rattly" (like a tractor!) when idling, it could well be the VVC mechanism itself. Its happened to my 97 VVC too...

If its not too badly worn, it could be repairable, if not you may need a new one.

I would seriously talk to Mike: he can rebuild them for substantially less than a new part. www.mikesatur.co.uk for contact details.

A competant mechanic can localise where the rattle is coming from with a stethoscope: if its the VVC unit, it'll be on the right hand side, adjacent to the cam belt cover.

Good luck...

Neil.
Neil

Neil,

Thanks for your comments. The rattle does seem to be coming from the right hand side (top of engine). You say the VVC mechanism ?
Is this the symptoms my first dealer mentioned then about these valves within it ??

I think taking it to Mike is an excellent idea but if these dealers are coming up with two different opinions, surely one of them is doing something wrong !!!

Anymore help appreciated.

Thanks,

Tony
Tony Lynch

VVC = Variable Valve Control

The VVC unit alters the point in the cycle at which the inlet valve opens. Opening it sooner as the engine is spinning faster permits the engine to get air in more effectively.

Neil.

(Alternate name = "Very, Very Complicated" :-) )
Neil

I personally think that BOTH dealers are talking "money" rather than facts. If it is the right hand end, then it is likely to be the VVC unit. No, it doesn't have valves in it, but it does have bearings that were poorly matched to the shaft in early cars (which ours are)

A VVC unit at Rover prices is just under £400 but does take a few hours to get aligned correctly and fitted...

I would seriously consider driving it across the Pennines and taking it to someone who is much more realistic - not to mention has probably taken more VVC heads off than the dealers have... He'll give you a realistic diagnosis....

Neil.
Neil

Neil,

One last question if I may, thanks:

Thanks very much, I am going to take good advice from people who know what they are talking about rather than dealers who obviously dont.

Will Mike be able to do the repairs as well as the diagnosis or will I have to arrange this myself ??

I shall give him a call tomorrow.

Many thanks once again.

I will keep you all informed of developments.

Tony
Tony Lynch

Yes. Mike can do the repairs. (I think he hourly rate is substantially less than main dealers too - but do watch out for the temptation to spend money on "dark side" modifications while you're there :-) )

There were a recent series of articles in MG World on "rebuilding a VVC head" (can't remember who's car it was, but it was BBS contributer...) that was done in Mike's workshop.

He didn't do mine totally, but he did ship a correcly assembled cam carrier down for my local mechanic to fit.

Neil.
Neil

Tony, for the sake of your mind, take it to Mike Satur, that's if you want to actually get the car repaired without you having to worry about some stupid dealers trying to fix it by trial and error. (at the end of course you pay more, and not as good as Mike's job).

I had that, well if I had Mike here, I would just send my car there by a tow truck or something even if it's 5 hours away. I had to go through one bad experience before I found a really good mechanic. Dealer charged almost twice more / hour + stuffed my cam gear bolts, and I almost lost my engine.

Best of luck.

Regards,
Hanah Kim

Hanah Kim

You'll have to make him an offer he can't refuse, Hannah

Wait a minute, he's got lots of girls at home too, though :-)

Happy Thursday!

Neil
Neil

Tony the symtons you describe sounds like a VVC unit with a failed bearing, forget pistons and valves if power is still OK, a compression test can detect if there is a problem here.
I wouldn't take Neil's advice to avoid the dark side though;-) Think of all the money you will have saved on not having new pistons!!
Mike
Mike

Neil, in case you missed it in previous threads, Hanah has 1 'N' and is very male....
David

Hi Neil! Happy Thursday to you too! If there were a lot of nice chicks at Mike's, I probably moved to UK ages ago... :-D *grin*

Oh no, I am a guy, so not a lesbian.

There you go. And thanks David for backing up! Same thing happened in my classes when I was in college/high school, all my friends stood up for me going 'don't call him Hannah, his name is Han-Ah' :-D
I just tell others that my name is Han these days. ;-)

And Tony, visit Mike's shop once, everyone seems to have empty wallets afterwards, or starve for a week... ;-) guess you can only figure out why if you visit his workshop. He is highly recommended. (and no he doesn't rip you off, even his delivery prices to New Zealand are the best)

www.mikesatur.co.uk and look at lots of cool products, you will see why.

Regards,
Hanah


P.S. I have nothing to do with Mike, or was not an advertisement. :-D
Hanah Kim

Cheers for all your comments from everyone regarding this, dont know what I'd have done without your help and advice !!

Will keep you all posted and let you know what happens.

Thanks again !!

Here's to happy motoring again soon.

Tony
Tony Lynch

Tony,

I know this sounds very basic but do check the oil level. I have had the VVC unit replaced on my 96 MGF. This was because of a similar noise problem I had. The unit was replaced under warranty and I never got to the bottom of what the problem actually was. However, I have noticed that I get a similar noise problem when the oil runs low. The car seems to use a reasonable amount of oil, always has done. But when the level drops below a certain point, the unit becomes quite noisy very rapidly. I'm sure your problem is more complex than this, but worth a check.

Gordon
Gordon

Gordon,

Thanks for your comment. I thought the same myself when I first noticed the problem. In fact if being truthful it was my girlfriend who questioned the increase in noise !! I checked the oil right away and it was at the correct level. Coolant was ok as well. I also understand that when the engine is cold they can also be a little noisier than when warm but this usually dissappears after a few miles. It was only when it did'nt I knew I had a problem.

Suppose it's best to explore every eventuality !!

Thanks again,

Tony
Tony Lynch

Hi Tony,

coming late to this thread, but my immediate thought was that this was a problem with the VVC cam mechanism - and absolutely nothing to do with the valves or cylinders!!!

Just to add my vote with the others for Mike Satur's services - he's certainly your most local specialist. Dave Andrews is someone else to think about if you lived 'down south'.

Let us know how you get on - but don't go to those dealerships!!!

Rob
Rob Bell

>>Dave Andrews is someone else to think about if you lived 'down south...

Whereabouts is he, Rob???

(Sorry, I'm sure I should know!!)
SimonKE

Dave Andrews is in Milton Keynes IIRC...
David

Yup. Milton Keynes!
Rob Bell

>> SF, in your reply (thanks by the way !) what you were explaining in paragraph 4 & 5, would this be the diagnosis that dealer 1 explained about the valves in one of the cams ?? (he said the air inlet one nearest the belt). <<

Sound like cylinder 1, which means that it could well be the VVC mechanism instead of a stuck cam follower.

As you can appreciate this is tricky to describe (hey it aint known a Very Very Complicated for nothing!)

Basically the outer two cylinders have an inlet camshaft each which is roughly a quarter of the length of the engine and is a hollow tube. The inlet camshafts for the middle two cylinders are roughly half the length of the engine and have one of the quarter length camshafts slotted on the end. The half length camshafts act as a spindle with the quarter length ones rotating on them independantly. The VVC mechanism drives all 4 camshafts independantly at varying speeds to maximise the duration of the valves opening when you need power and reduce the duration when you don't.

I will echo the above comments, Mike Satur is a specialist and knows what he is looking at, he isn't too far from you (he is in Goldthorpe, near Wombwell on the A635) and his labour rates are less than MGR. Highly recommended.

Good Luck

SF

Scarlet Fever

Mike is definitely 'da man'.

I guess it would be right in saying that everyone on this BBS has more faith in mike's expertise than ANY MG/Rover dealer ...

G
Gaz R

I have a number of new and near new VVC mechs here at a small fraction of the cost of Rover replacements and indeed followers and valves for VVC heads. At the moment I have 11 low mileage or new VVC heads in stock. I have recently sent some VVC mechs up to Mike so he should be in a position to sort you out. Mostly when I have a VVC head its prepared for competition during which the VVC mechs are ditched, hence the availability..

Dave
Dave andrews

This thread was discussed between 26/02/2003 and 27/02/2003

MG MGF Technical index

This thread is from the archives. Join the live MG MGF Technical BBS now