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MG MGF Technical - starting woe!

turn key to start car... single "click" from the rear (no attempt to turn over)
try agin "click"... try Again "click"...
I havn't had any hint of starting probs since changing htleads and plugs 16 months ago.

1st thought sticky starter so tapped the solenoid a few times with a piece of wood... try again "click"

2nd thought dodgy connection to starter somewhere so try wiggling leads. and try again "click"

3rd thought battery (even though lights seem bright, stereo & fans all work & battery is only 2 years old) Connect jump leads up...
try...starter creeps into action.. turns slowly 2 or three times
try again... starter a bit more convincing...engine turns over properly, blip the throttle and its away... Hurrah.

leave it to idle for 5 mins, turn off, turn the key and it starts first time

make a couple of short (10 mile) journeys, after each car starts fine (1/2 a turn), no telltale red lights on the dash. think ahh well, battery must be on its way out then.

that was saturday... didnt touch the car on sunday. tried this morning... "click"

jump leads out.., turn the key "click"... try again "click" so not battery unless a faulty battery can rob a donor of power? ( i did get a small spark when adjusting the jumper clip on the grounding lead from the battery... is a P.D. between two battery negatives normal?)

Any ideas - Is the single click the solenoid "firing" & is this indicative of anything? How hard can I hit the starter... I suppose i need to buy a multimeter.

cheers,
James
J LEWIS

Hi James

Lights, fans and stereo are cheap dates - it doesn't take much to make them happy. The starter motor on the other hand, is a greedy sucker and wants lots of amps.

The smark between donor and in-car battery sounds normal.

If it's not a poor connection to the battery, or from battery to earth, then it's the battery itself.

Also, check that the top of the battery is clean. If it's grimy and conditions are damp you can get losses across the gunge. (Or so a nice AA man once told me when I had a car that was refusing to start.)

Two years is a very short life for a modern battery, so I would suspect a poor connection.

AlsoJames
James Reinhardt

ok a fruitless night poking around in the dark & cold with a voltmeter. I'll share the extra info I now know.

Ok I disconnected the battery and connnected straight via the jump leads to the donor battery. With donor car engine running I get 13.7 v between live and bolt on top of radiator.

Turn key and get one click (I'm almost certain this is the solenoid. It certainly comes from the starter and is more of a clunk when peering into the engine bay)No hint of the engine turning over.

When key is turned to III 0.1V voltage drop across terminals. Enough current is being drawn to notice engine tone change on the donor car as the alternator takes the extra load.

This tried six or so times but starter refuses to turn

Satisfied that the battery isn't the problem I turn my attention to the Starter.

I get 13.7V between the large nut on the alternator and the chassis

When the key is turned this voltage drops rapidly - the voltmeter doesn't change quickly enough to see how far but at least 7V, probably more.

While i was there I checked resistance between the smaller nut and the chassis and it was low so that connection seems ok.

I guess the spade connector is ok as this is fuelling the solenoid (hence the click/clunk)It's been wiggled, pushed & pulled & seems to be well attached.

Is The big voltage drop across the starter and the current draw indicated by the engine tone of the donor car a sign that the starter is siezed?
I've been bouncing the car like zebedee & hitting the starter & solenid with a wrench(as hard as i can considering the position/angle... which actually probably isnt all that hard!)

Any advice for my next move.
Thanks
James





J LEWIS

James,
How old is your beast? It sounds like a lack of current to the starter motor(stop hitting it).
Can you trace the earth strap between the engine and the body(corroded return path to the battery via the bodywork?) How about getting the -ve jumplead directly onto the engine, not the battery -ve terminal or the bodywork.
Your battery, earth strap, or bodywork connections may be suspect; likewise at the engine, either end of the engine earth strap could be high resistance.
I have rigged a hefty multicore lead connecting my battery -ve direct to the alternator/engine block rather than rely on a couple of weedy earth straps and the car's bodywork to make a decent return path. It is very nearly 11 years old and never turns over twice before starting on the second battery in it's(documented) life(and it lives on the street not in a garage). HTH. Good luck,
Charles
C.R.B. Simeon

Thanks Charles,
Its a 97VVC. Where is the engine earth strap? & are the connections on my solenoid same as standard?, Many posts in the archive refer to "the nut" I've got Big nut (13mm? positive) smaller nut (10mm earth) and spade (not sure if pos or earth.
another worry... Is there any chance that its the engine which is siezed or hydraulically locked?
Torch out again tonight... God i wish i had a garage!
James
J LEWIS

But why would the starter start after running if it was a loss of current to the atrter motor. WOuld this not always be enough to prevent starting, even when warm?
I Brown

I was thinking a loose or intermittent connection sometimes allowing enough current. By the same token such an intermittent connection might equally be in the dedicated starter motor +ve feed from the battery. Again it could be at either end (or even in the middle if physically damaged by something else - rather unlikely and a sod to check).
What is the resting charge on your battery James?
I assume you have already had both terminals off for a thorough clean of the contacting faces (both the terminals and their respective connectors. I think the earth stap at the engine bay is front right but have read here before that it can wear out with movement over time. Current then finds its way back to earth through throttle cables and such like. No thanks! HTH,
Charles
C.R.B. Simeon

by resting charge I assume you mean the voltage across the terminals... That is 11.9V.
I've just linked the jump leads end to end to get a +Ve Within range of the engine block and get 11.9V between the base of the gearbox and these leads so it looks like the engine block earth is ok. I also checked resistance while i was there and got lots of fluctuation between 0.5 & 0 Ohms which is nominal ( i was getting 0.2 with just the probes touching!)

There is 11.9 v between the 2 bolted terminals of the solenoid

I've got the wheel off in the hope that it would give me better access... I dont think it will but i can now clearly see that the Earth of the Solenoid Starter (10mm nut) is connected to the starter body by a short (25mm)cable,there is also no sign of the dedicated lead (read about in the archives) which should connect the starter to the chassis(is it possible that this is an earlier a solenoid replacement?)

Im really struggling to undo the live connection as the leads are in the way. I've had to beat a temporary retreat indoors. Bleedin rain!

J LEWIS

Job done (fingers crossed!). I dont know if i'm less dexterous than most but I ended up having to take the engine cover off and dismantle the air filter so i had enough room to work
Cleaned up the connections to the starter (which actually already looked quite clean) and the beast started under its own steam.

and started again...
and started again...
and started again...

so far so good. hopefully problem solved.
Thanks to the posters and the BBS archive.

P.S. is the moral of the story that multimeter readings are meaningless...

P.P.S I'd still like to know whether my starter is in some way "odd"

Thanks,
James
J LEWIS

> is the moral of the story that multimeter readings are meaningless...

nope,the moral of the story is that multimeter readings are only useful if they are taken in the right place and you understand what you are reading ;-)
Will Munns

Hi James,
Good news then... I feel 11.9v is a bit low and it may be the battery all along but the starter sounds fine. If a couple of days of good starting and decent runs are OK; have another look at the resting charge. It should be nearer 12.5v or better.
Fingers crossed!
Charles
C.R.B. Simeon

how true!
james
J LEWIS

This thread was discussed between 04/12/2006 and 05/12/2006

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