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MG MGF Technical - TF 160 Performance Mods?

Ok After getting rid of my F just after New Year (boo hoo) I am now thinking of getting a new TF 160 (hooray!)

A few questions?

1. Best performance mods for a 160?
2. 6 Speed close ratio box, Yes/No/Maybe?
3. Antyhing Else?

Cheers!

Mark Catterall

I have the official X-Power 172ps conversion fitted on my TF160, and IMO it is well worth the cost. The increase in power, torque and noise, make a huge difference. The only problem is your face aches after a while from all the grinning LOL.
The best VFM mod you can do to the TF IMO is fit the X-Power springs. The change the way the car feels and make the ride quality so much better. Because the rear springs are dual rate, they maintain the stiffness required for when you want to 'give it some sport' :D
Wouldn't bother with a 6 speed box TBO, unless you planing on using it for trackdays only.
Steve White

Ah didn't know about the 172 kit ... interesting.. mmm

After looking at the prices of a six speed box I think it may not be worth it to.
Mark Catterall

Is there a website that covers all this official X-Power stuff? =-s
Paul Lathwell

Hi Paul - try http://www.mg-xpower.com/mgshop/index.asp?bhcp=1
Dave Livingstone

Mark, I will be a the Silverstone MG show 23-25 July, your welcome to have a look/listen at my set-up and i'll gladly take you for a spin if you want to see what its like.
Steve White

You can view the X-Power catalogue here:-
http://www.xpower-mg.com/SnRCatalogue.htm

You can order the bits through your dealer if they are X-Power approved, or alternativly direct from X-Power.
Steve White

Cheers. :)
Paul Lathwell

Steve, can you tell me what the Xpower conversion comprises/costs and can it be fitted to the Trophy?

thanks
Nic

The 172 kit comprises of an ITG Maxogen induction kit, a 4-2-1 Janspeed manifold, a high flow Janspeed sports cat & a Janspeed freeflow rear silencer with 76mm tailpipes.
It costs £1190.64 + VAT (£ & fitting.
I fitted the induction kit, cat & silencer myself and had Techspeed fit the manifold.
I'm having it rolling roaded on 10th July so I will then know exactly what the improvement is.

I can't see any reason why it couldn't be fitted to the Trophy as it uses the same airbox & later type exhaust as the TF :)

FYI the part No. for the 172 kit is ZMGR0704
and the springs are ZMGR005.
Steve White

The 172 kit is a one stop hit that has very nearly every bolt-on mod that I would have thought of and comes with the added advantage that it is warranty friendly :o)

If you wanted to take the 160 kit a stage further, then I'd probably think of a warm exhaust cam and a +10% FPR. Thereafter, you'd be looking at cylinder head modifications...

I also agree with Steve with the suspension mods: again the X Power kit is warranty friendly and offers terrific advantages in terms of both handling - which you'd expect - and ride, which perhaps you'd not.
Rob Bell

Would I have warranty problems if I fitted the X-Power lowering springs myself?
Pip

No Pip. Obviously you will nedd a set of spring compressors though. You also need to unbolt various bits in the engine compartment to gain access to the top damper mounts.
The only problem I can see you could encounter is with the tracking, as fitting lowering springs will almost definatly throw it out.
When Techspeed did mine, they checked and set the tracking, I then took it for a short spin, they then re-checked it, I did one more shakedown run and the tracking was checked once more.
Obviously you would need to have a good relationship will your local tyre fitters to be able to do this.
Techspeed only took 2 hrs to fit mine, which is probably a quarter of the time it would have taken me, so its worth considering letting them do it IMHO.
Steve White

Steve, any idea how much just for the springs and fitting at Techspeed? I would certainly be happy for them to do the job if they could fit me in.
Pip

If you supply the springs, then they charge £35/hr to fit them which takes 2-3hrs, so your looking at £70-£100, that's at least half what a dealer would charge.
Booking a slot can be a problem though, especially at this time of year.
Techspeed can supply springs, but they are the normal Eibach ones, not the X-Power Eibach ones (They are actually identical apart from their appearance, the XP one are green, the Eibach's black. I bought the XP ones to avoid any warranty issues, but its up to you.
Steve White

Steve, do you know if there is a difference in price between the X Power "green" Eibach springs and the Techspeed "black" Eibach springs?

If your TF is about to leave the warranty period, then it may make more financial sense to go for what ever option is the cheaper...
Rob Bell

Yes Rob, and strangely the opposite way round to what you are probably thinking. The X-Power ones are actually cheaper! (only by about £10-£15). Roy put this down to the fact that X-Power order them in considerably larger quantities then them, hence why they get them cheaper, though you'd have thought MG would have realised this and bumped the price up to the same as the normal Eibachs to make a little more money on them.
The X-Power exhaust also works out cheaper from X-Power than direct from Janspeed ;)
Steve White

Well well well! Yes, that's certainly a surprise Steve! I am starting to really warm to MG S&R and the X Power brand!!! :oD
Rob Bell

mmm Ok think my mind is made up, just gota sort the finances:)

Steve, I may be at silverstone depends on my fitness as im revovering from a operation, I'll let you know
Mark Catterall

Steve

Did you have to inform your insurance after fitting the 172 KIT....and would the different make a difference to a TF 160
Ron TF160

Sorry left out "springs"
Ron TF160

>>Did you have to inform your insurance after fitting the 172 KIT....and would the different make a difference to a TF 160


Yes, although they are approved parts, they are still classed as modifications so you still need to tell you insurer.

The difference is very noticeable on a 160. The bottom end torque is increased to a point where now I can hardly feel the rapid power/torque increase you get at 4K RPM in a standard VVC. Power delivery is now very smooth all the way up to the red line, and the noise is just so addictive :LOL:
My car now definitely has a 'loud pedal' :D
Cruising at 70-80MPH, its hardly any louder than the standard exhaust though :)
I'm going on G-force RR day on the 10th so will let you know exactly how much difference its made after that.
Steve White

Techspeed charged me about £135 to fit the X-power springs to my TF160, but that did include sorting out my brakes, so it may be a tad cheaper for just the springs. They are also brilliant and were happy to run SWMBO and I into Warwick whilst tehy did the work.

If you do go direct to MG S&R, do make sure the correct parts are ordered from Eibach and that you can have someone available for delivery. The springs are sent direct from Eibach. The dates MG S&R give you are NOT the same as Eibach, and the courier company is awful.

Whilst I am very pleased with the springs, MG S&R is a cottage industry and is run like one. Eibach were not much better. 6 attempts to get the correct parts to me was not a good hit rate.

It was going in Steve's car that convinced me to fit the springs and I recommend them. Insurance and cost were prohibitive for the 172 for me at teh moment though.
David Mills

How did the springs affect your premium David?
Pip

Pip,

tricky one to answer as it really depended on the company. Some refused to quote and some whacked a lot on. In general it seemed to be about £100-£150 increase apart from one or two who were a more reasonable £50-£70.
David Mills

Are there any tried and tested "words" to convince them I'm not a boy-racer!
Pip

is that a mistake on the SnR catalogue - I don't see any mention of the TF 135, unless that is the engine they mean, and not the 120. Each kit has two asterisks, maybe another mistake, saying a modified cylinder head is part of the kit.

http://www.xpower-mg.co.uk/SnRCatalogue.htm
Gary

Not sure about the SnR catalogue, I know the Q came up a while back and the general concensus seemed to be that the mods were for the 135. The first ed of totalMG certainly says they have stage 1 & 2 mods for the 135.

Insurance co quoted me £21 to add the lowering springs for the last 4 months of my policy. Just need to convince the SO now that it's an "investment" - having just spent a pot of money on a projector, it's gonna take some convincing!!

Of course if X-Power just happen to be offering any sort of discount at Silverstone, I wouldn't be able to afford NOT to!
Pip

Pip mate, if you want I'll take your SO for a spin in mine, she will be able to notice 'the improvement' just driving across the car park :D

The modified cylinder heads only come with the ZR120 & TF135 kits. That’s why those kits are quite a bit more than the TF160>172 kit. Although you could fit the 172 kit to any TF (except Stepspeed) if you didn't want the expense of changing the head.
Steve White

Steve,
sounds like a plan mate, cheers. I've got her reading your review of them in Safet Fast as I type.

They will be mine. Oh yes, they will be mine...
Pip

lol

See you at Silverstone ;)
Steve White

Agree with Steve, Get the SO in a car witht he springs and she will pay for them for you. Well OK that might be going a bit far LOL, but I'm pretty sure the objections will disappear.

If you are coming to the SEF House of Horror run tomorrow evening, I'll give you a spin in mine so you can feel the difference.

If not, hope to see you at Silverstone too.
David Mills

Reading back that comment about cams, should you specify larger, or high lift cams, and just concentrate on the exhaust side of things, or apply the same cam rules to the intake side as well.
Gary

You can only change to exhaust cam on a TF160, as there are no high lift cam kits available for the 4 inlet cams. There would be little point changing them anyway, as the whole point of the VVC mechanism is to optimises valve timing.
If your want power levels in excess of what the VVC mechanism can cope with, then you will need to remove the VVC mechanism completely and fit solid inlet cams along with a head blanking kit.

As far as I'm aware, the 135 kit doesn't come with high lift cams. I don't know if X-Power can supply them, and if so if they would invalidate the warranty or not.
Steve White

The 135 engine uses high lift cams already! ;o) 9.5mm of lift versus 8.8mm on the standard 1.8i...

Gary, Steve's right - there are no alternatives to the VVC cam profiles at present. A variety of reasons for this - most principly, making a cam lobe strong enough to make it viable for a road car. IIRC Piper had a research programme looking at making an alternative VVC cam set - but this never came to fruition. The only alternative are fixed cams - which can give tremendous results on a standard VVC head...

If you intend on keeping the VVC mechanism, then the exhaust cam is the place to concentrate, as it is in relatively mild tune - even compared to the cam used in the 135 (9.2mm lift versus 9.5). You might want to consider using a Piper BP270H on the exhaust, timed on a venier... There's some experience doing this with very credible results :o)
Rob Bell

Steve,

A couple of questions if you don't mind...

With the lowering kit have you had any problems with road humps etc?

With the 172 kit you say that it is noiser but have you any actual idea how much. My concern is track days - if I remember correctly (which is debatable) my TF160 was coming in at around 96dB at Goodwood noise test. Do you know how will the mod's impact this?

Thanks & I'll be at Silverstone on the Sunday so I'll have a good look around the TF parking area for a lower than usual TF.

Thanks

David
David

>>With the lowering kit have you had any problems with road humps etc?

Not on public roads. There is one on the driveway where I work that occasinally just catches.

I had no problem passing the noise tests at the Bedford Autodrome trackday. I have yet to hear of an MGF or TF failing one, so don't think its anything to worry about.

I'm doing a couple of parade sessions on the Sunday morning, IIRC 9:00 & 9:45 or something like that so also keep an ear open for a louder than usuall TF out on track :D
Steve White

>> My concern is track days - if I remember correctly (which is debatable) my TF160 was coming in at around 96dB at Goodwood noise test <<

I'd be genuinely surprised if you TF160 was really that loud David - but 4 dB (to breech the 100 dB limit) is a considerable increase in sound levels: remember that it is a non-linear scale.

"The dB-scale is a logarithmic, or relative scale. This means, that as you double the sound pressure (or the energy in the sound) the index increases by approximately 3. A sound level of 100 dB(A) thus contains twice the energy of a sound level of 97 dB(A). " - from http://www.windpower.org/en/tour/env/db/dbdef.htm
Rob Bell

David,

if you have mudflaps then there is an issue with some speed humps - especially in the surrey area where they are made for 4x4's it seems.

I go over both full table and full rounded humps every day, and mostly without probles. But the half table (ie raised lump in middle of road which a standard car may straddle) can be troubledsome. I have grounded teh subframe a number of times and the mudflaps always hit these. In multi-storey car parks, coming down the slopes the mudflaps also ground.

Over-all though the difference in the car is worth these small troubles.

One thing though - don't expect the TF to look much lower because it doesn't.
David Mills

that's an intesting point, the VVC mechanism only works only the inlet side, and that has a mechanism all about timing variables anyway. So any cam changes would be to the exhaust side of things, where the VVC does not operate. But what about the non VVC engines? Is it best to concentrate on both In and Out, or just Out only??

Thinking about the SnR catlogue, the 135 engine already contains some improvements over the standard 120. Along with the VVC it has a low loss air intake, and an exhaust with reduced back pressure, and also with the addition of high lift cams. So £ for £ is money less well spent improving it up to 150 Ps,than it is to get the same results on a 120 as found in a ZR.
Gary

>> But what about the non VVC engines? Is it best to concentrate on both In and Out, or just Out only?? <<

You have to concentrate on both Gary.

>> So £ for £ is money less well spent improving it up to 150 Ps,than it is to get the same results on a 120 as found in a ZR. <<

Interesting point.

If you are aiming to get a 150 bhp engine, then that's a gain of about 15bhp for the 135, or 30bhp on the 120. BOTH engines would require the same modifications to get to the 150 mark - head work being the most expensive part of that upgrade, but also new cams (more than likely), new exhaust manifold, sports cat etc etc. So if you look at it from the £/bhp perspective, then yes, clearly it is better to start with the 120 engine. But if you had a 135 already...

This is an interesting point to make because it illustrates one of the serious pitfalls associated with engine tuning: tuning part obsolescence.

So many people fall into this trap - buying parts that then have to be discarded when their sights are re-focused on a higher performance plane.

It is far more cost effective to set your tuning goals early and assemble all the parts required to achieve this to install, most likely, in one go.

However, one good thing about the 135 is that you could always sell your cams to a 1.8MPi owner - as this ought to make a very useful gain on the 120 engine :o)
Rob Bell

Techspeed charged me about £135 to fit the X-power springs to my TF160

Just popped into the local dealer to ask about ordering some springs (haven't done it yet!). Out of curiosity I asked about fitting and the magic number they came up with??
£280, of which £100 was for 4-wheel alignment!!

What was Techspeeds number? - LOL
Pip

but then I suppose, to avoid tuning obsolescence, and to bring down the price, some of the mods offered could be sold on an exchange basis. So the same performance parts would be cheaper on a 135 than a 120, because you had some better to offer in return.

How loud is the complete exhaust mod? Will it upset my neighbours? The Db level has already been mentioned. Has anyone had this mod done?

How do the X-Power springs affect the ride and handling?

Genuinely Interested
Gary

Rob,

Thanks for the link to the Danish Wind Industry Association - I'll print out a copy and keep it in the car for the next time I'm at Goodwood for a more informed view of the noise test! LOL...

Must confess that the price of £1,110 seems a tad steep for under 10% power gain. Steve W, it will be very interesting to see the results of the RR - can you kindly keep us advised.

Steve M, I live in Redhill area and frequently do battle with speed bumps of all shapes & variety's and therefore a little concerned about dropping the height. I don't have mud flaps so that shouldn't be too much of a problem. This may be a stupid question but has the ride quality improved? From a passengers perspective even on the M25 (once you get above 10mph) there is a certain motion that it a touch uncomfortable.

Thanks

David
David Grant

£1190.64 + VAT may seem expensive but at present there is no other product available that can give a 10% power increase AND retain the warranty, so from my point of view its a bargain. Before getting the kit, I costed the parts to get them direct from there relevant manufacturers and it worked out a little more expensive to do this, so the X-Power kit is actually good value when you look at it in this respect. It also looks a lot of money because you are buying all the bits together. Most 'normal' F modders would spread their purchases over months/years so the cost seems less, but is actually in most cases more.

As Dave Mills has already said, at a recent meet I parked my lowered car next to his un-lowered car, and visually it was very hard to notice any height difference, so the springs do not have the boy racer effect of slamming you car to the floor. The lowering is very subtle, and as I said before I have had no problems with speed humps. The ride quality is greatly improved IMO, with no detrimental effect on hamdling. In fact having taken my car on a trackday ford I would say the handling has be improved, IMO this is probably down to the rear springs being dual rate. You need to take a ride in a TF with these springs fitted to discover how much difference they make, but IMHO they are worth every penny. The 2 TF owners I have taken for a spin in my car since having the spring fitted have both go on to have them fitted themselves :o)

Steve White

>> Thanks for the link to the Danish Wind Industry Association - I'll print out a copy and keep it in the car for the next time I'm at Goodwood for a more informed view of the noise test! LOL.. <<

Happy to oblige David! LOL
Rob Bell

This thread was discussed between 12/06/2004 and 01/07/2004

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