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MG TD TF 1500 - Autumn Red

Tim Burchfield, how did you go with the Autumn Red. (08/11/16) My TD was that colour when I owned it in the 70's and now I have it again but is Woodlands Green like most TD's. I want it Autumn Red again but are having trouble formulating the colour.
Trevor James
T O James

2Xs

Bill Chasser
TD/c-16920
W A Chasser


3x, same story.

Jim
James Neel

Trevor, after looking at endless samples and reading several post about Autumn Red I decided to go with black. There are many beautiful cars painted Autumn Red but the ones I've seen don't look exactly like the color I found on my car. In my case the original is too dark and tends to be brownish. So thought if I'm not going with true original color on my car I'd go with something I like and that would be easier to paint (e.g. I won't have to worry about keeping the gas tank backboard masked off). I also like the fact that the under fenders on a black car can be touched up with almost any black paint. Lastly, I'm painting the car myself and I had very good results with black on my 72 MGB.

This discussion might prove of some help to you http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?46,3458642

Regards

Tim
TD12524
TW Burchfield

Go to Chris Couper's site: http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_finishes.htm#formulas You'll find manufacture's model names/numbers for a number of Autumn Red blends. The problem is that these formulae are for paints that are now obsolete. Some paint sources have the ability to trace the old mix components to modern paints. I'd suggest taking the list on Chris' site and present it to a few paint sources. Bud
Bud Krueger

Hi Trevor I just painted my TF Autumn Red and extremely happy with it. I think also if I hadn't gone for this I think I would have gone black with the red interior.
Darryl

D Lamb

Bud. And there lies the problem. For those of us who are trying to come up with a modern formula. I haven't taken my toolbox lid in yet for a color match. I think we were all hoping that someone else had come up with a modern workable formula. As this is a back burner project behind my dad's SSG I'm needing to get a modern formula for it. Unfortunately I have no salvageable areas of SSG to go with to my paint supplier.

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

AUTUMN RED is the darker maroon red option that has a British Standard number of RD6

It is the same as the MGB DAMASK RED
Rod Brayshaw

Daryl, looking good, is it the same as sample colour of the door (08/11/16)
To me it is Rover Autumn Red RD66 which shows up a bit purple in some light (image 13 The Original MG TD Colors) with a question mark (my take).
And the burning question - is it the same colour as TD11 (LED LaVerne 08/11/16). Has Dan Craig followed him up?
Trevor
T O James

Autumn Red is not the same as Damask Red. I'm not at home at the moment to check the colour cards, but if I remember correctly, Autumn Red is darker.
Dave H
es1

correct, Damask red is RD5, should have looked at my chart.

Autumn Red is USA PPG#50930
Rod Brayshaw

Yes Trevor if you are refering to the picture of the tub in primer and the door in autumn red.
D Lamb

Hey Rod thanks for the AR code. Does your book show a modern formula for SSG ?

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

I only have R-M CODE IS BM108R & DUPONT ENAMEL
93-8345OH
Rod Brayshaw

Bill if you go to http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/imgytr/colours.shtml it lists most codes and click on the underlined colour will give the PPG formulation.
Trevor
T O James

Dan Craig are you able to contact the guy with the Autumn Red TD11 registration (ARKANSAS VINTAGE CAR F8991) to find out the colour code please. Image 08/11/16, by LED LaVerne, thread:Colour Combination

Trevor
T O James

Dan told me that the owner passed away and he is unable to source that paint code for that TD.
L E D LaVerne

Trevor what pic are you talking about? I don't see it
W A Chasser

Darryl, I love the color on your TF, great job on the restoration by the way! PJ
PSJ Jennings

Cheers PJ still waiting for the engine before I can finally put it all together. Enjoy the summer in yours.
D Lamb

Trevor I am in process of painting my TD Autumn Red--sample panel attached. I put a call into my paint supplier to get you the information. I know its a 2 stage paint, PPG I think. I'll post the information when I get it.

J Cosin

Bill it is an image posted by LED LaVerne November 8 last on Colour Combination thread. Great colour, have to have it.
Thank you J Cosin.

Trevor
T O James

Trevor thanks I found it with your help
W A Chasser

Thanks LED Laverne, sorry to hear that.

Trevor
T O James

Trevor. I'm using a PPG Concept DCC acrylic urethane 2 stage The number is 74158 and it is Rover Damask Red. If you need the detailed formula let me know. My paint guru says this is as close to an exact match to the original autumn red out there.
J Cosin

Thanks J Cosin send an image when you can.

Trevor
T O James

Bud Krueger I have just worked out your car from archives, looks great. What brand and code have you used?

Trevor
T O James

Long story, Trevor. When I got the car, in 1988, it had a terrible coat of (MG) red paint with obvious signs of an earlier coat of white. When disassembling the car I found the original red on the back of the petrol tank. The color, and the manufacturing date of the car (TD10855) said that it was very likely an original Autumn Red car. At that time I owned a NAPA Auto Parts store and sold paint, Martin-Senour. Martin-Senour is the automotive paint branch of Sherwin-Williams) The folks at Martin-Senour were happy to dig into the archives and find the color code (20216) and formula for Autumn Red. I had enough mixed up to paint the car and provided it to the body shop that was doing the painting for me as I picked up the sheet metal from the strippers.

It was a bit later when I finally got around to being able the assemble the car. (I had closed the NAPA store.) To my chagrin I discovered that there were two distinct shades of paint on the panels. I learned that the painters wasted much of the original paint that I provided them with and had some mixed up on their own. By that point the paint shop had gone out of business.

Professionally, I spent about 30 years with Polaroid in the field of electro-optics and standards. Color is a fascinating subject, and is truly in the eye of the beholder. I don't think that any other MG color has been the topic of as much discussion as Autumn Red. In reality, there is no 1951 Autumn Red to be seen. We all seem to picture it as a somewhat darker red than MG Red, a bit of a maroon shade.

Sorry to be so verbose, it's a topic that intrigues me.
Bud
Bud Krueger

That's a good story Bud with a wonderful result. I am not certain my car was originally Autumn Red as when I first bought it in 1974 as an 18 year old my mates called it marooon (correct spelling) but I think that was also to do with being broken down regularly with broken crankshafts and it was dark red like yours. Great colour.

Trevor
T O James

I can post a scan or pic of MG Red & Autumn Red side by side (original ICI Belco colour cards) if you wish. They won't be totally correct as seen on screen, but you will get a good idea of how much darker the Autumn Red is.
Dave H
es1

That would be good Dave thank you, I much prefer the Autumn Red and the cards will be a good reference.
Trevor
T O James

It will have to be Friday then, as I'm currently away from home. You may be surprised at how dark Autumn Red really is / was.
Dave H
es1

Dave, what light source was specified for viewing the ICI cards? Bud
Bud Krueger

Trevor
I have just completed the restoration of TF4571 and had the car painted original Autumn Red. Displayed the car at MG National Rally over Easter here in Adelaide & had lots of very good comments re the colour.
I can provide the code if the colour is what you are after.
Regards Chris Bennett
Chris Bennett

Photo of our TF

Chris Bennett

The standard for viewing colour samples back in the day was Northern Daylight, or at least in was in the 1970s when I was involved in colour matching - nothing more specific than that.
Dave H
es1

Chris. Yes please

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

If any one has sufficient quantity of the "correct" color matched paint and willing to spray out a sample on cardstock I will gladly pay them for their efforts.

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

Chris,
What a great result. Really keen to get the paint brand and codes for Autumn Red.
Trevor
T O James

Trevor
Thank you for the compliment, re the paint job. My panel beater, spray painter is very particular, the TF was brought in from the USA by the previous owner in 2013 & we purchased it in 2015 partially restored, we decided on the Autumn Red, red upholstery and black roof, very pleased with the result
The car had its debut at the MG National Rally last weekend, placed 4th in TF's. It's not concours perfect by any way, but we are pleased the way she ended up.
Unfortunately we have a gearbox problem after the National Kimber Run so it's off the road until I source another gearbox from UK.Going down the track of a Sierra T9 & Hi gear conversion to make it easier to drive for my wife.
The paint we used was Dupont Centari
The colour is Rover Autumn Red 83450 510
Formula ID 3269323
Obtained from SA COLOR here in Adelaide.
Their contact no is 08 82776555.
Address 18-20 Furness Ave Edwardstown 5039
Hope this is a help in the Autumn Red department.

Regards Chris
Chris Bennett

As promised, some pics. For completeness I have included Damask Red. These are original paint cards - Autumn Red at the top, Damask Red middle, Emgee Red bottom.
Dave H

es1

The original paint formulations.
Dave H

es1

Unfortunately the colours appear considerably brighter on the screen than in my hand.
Dave H
es1

Dave H, thank you for sharing your cards and formulas

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

Dave, thanks for the photos of the pint cards. That just confirms that the traces of paint found on my car were Autumn Red. I don't find the real Autumn Red very appealing. And in my opinion, while the cars pictured above are beautiful, I don't find that they are painted the original dark, brownish red shown on your card.

Tim
TD12524
TW Burchfield

I agree that the Autumn Red is an unappealing dark maroon colour. No shading on the card, which was part of a swatch of many, so I think the card is the original colour. The Emgee Red and Damask Red are also dark, but as has been remarked by many over the years, are very influenced by lighting. In some lighting conditions they do look much brighter than others and this seems to occur on screen. Could be an explanation why some of the publicity at the time seemed to show a much brighter red than the car paint did in real life.
Dave H
es1

Super great thread.

Dave H. Thanks again for your paint info.
Christopher Couper

One other note on MG red paints. It appears from comments from my father (who bought TD19629 new) that the red paint faded rather quickly in the southern California sun. He repainted the car with a few years of getting it new.
Christopher Couper

I can believe that because one of the red pigments is probably a red lake (organic dye precipitated on an inert solid) - these are known to be fugitive.
Dave H
es1

Our difficulty with Autumn Red (I think) is that originally Autumn Red was derived from MG Maroon (Y Type) and maroon is a dark red with a brown tinge, but todays Autumn Red is a Rover colour that is a dark red with a purple tinge which is burgundy. Same name, same base different tinge.
Trevor
T O James

We will never know the exact color of any old paint. Paints change over the years due to sunlight and many other factors with time. Even on sample cards but they be the best we have to go by. Also each batch of paint used on our cars could very from batch to batch back then. Lastly today's paints will look different then the older ones. Forrest TD/C/22679
Forrest Rubenstein

Today's paints will look different to the original paint under different illumination. The original red pigments are no longer usable (heavy metals), so alternatives have to be selected. Its possible to get a near perfect match under a selected illuminant (typically simulated daylight), but under alternative illuminants (tungsten, fluorescent, halogen, evening light, etc.) the difference will become more obvious (metamerism). Using a spectrophotometer and colour software will minimise this effect, but it doesn't go away.
Dave H
es1

Well said, Dave! Anyone who has dealt with color from a technical standpoint can appreciate the difficulty in trying to define, or identify, a color. About twenty years ago there was a serious change in the pigments that were allowed to be used in red paints. A result of this was a monstrous increase in the cost of red pigments, especially for automotive uses.
When I discovered that Lazarus, TD10855, was originally a darker red than M.G. Red, and was built at a time when Autumn Red cars were leaving the factory, it seemed logical that it was probably Autumn Red. I've found at least 3 other TDs with close Car Nos that showed signs of Autumn Red. I opted to have a reputable source (Sherwin-Williams) reproduce the paint for me. I like the results and have no qualms telling someone that the color is Autumn Red as was applied to TDs built around late 1951. BTW, back in S.E. Massachusetts folks tended to look at it as Cranberry Red. Bud
Bud Krueger

Those old pigments were based principally on lead, chrome, or cadmium (mercury types had already been phased out) - especially so in the red, orange, yellow shades. They were opaque solids in the main, and toxicity was an issue for the pigment manufacturers, the processors, and anybody handling the materials. They have been replaced by organic pigments (carbon chemistry) that have lots of colour strength but little opacity. The opacity has to come from titanium dioxide white and carbon black. The spectral properties are completely different to the old pigments. Computer colour matching comes to the rescue, but as said above, its not perfect.
This issue of colour matching is much less apparent in other parts of the colour spectrum, as even in the 1950s they were using pthalocyanine blue and green pigments (more carbon chemistry) and even though today's versions of those pigments are slightly different, they are close enough to get a great match.
Dave H
es1

My 51 TD was also originally Autumn Red and I found large areas of original paint behind undercoat on fenders. I have pictures but the color changes from one computer to another. Here is a link to the thread regarding my findings with a pic of the can and formula. It is very similar to Chris Bennett's color.

http://www2.mg-cars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&access=&mode=archiveth&subject=8&subjectar=8&thread=2009121700432130113

rich40701

Whatever the merits of that pigment formulation as a colour match, I see that the main constituent is Quinacridone Violet, which is a very high performance pigment and will give outstanding colour fastness and weather resistance in a suitable paint.
Dave H
es1

The factory paint was of such poor quality, and the application was not the best. There was variation on the color from car to car, more variation on each batch of paint mixed. Once painted, the color was very unstable, especially being red. My advise would be to pick the color you think it should be, paying homage to what you think Autumn Red should look like.
Just my $.02
Be well,
David
D. Sander

found this original 1949 Morris 10 that looked black all over but after buffing 3 times has come up like this. It is darker than I remember my TD but looks the same as Dave Hill's ICI colour cards of Autumn Red.
Trevor

T O James

This thread was discussed between 15/04/2017 and 04/05/2017

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