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MG TD TF 1500 - Body Tub Repair and Rebuilding

We are starting to rebuild a T-series body tub as a Winter project, and I would be grateful to know the latest opinions/party line on:

Glue joints or no glue?

Wood source? Is Fenton Bagley still alive and working? Craig Seabrook? Moss? AS?

Screw material? Brass? Stainless?

Use preservative?

Use silicone?

Best wood rejuvinator for re-usable wood - Kwik Poly?

Other than Schach and Green, is there a recommended resource book?

Thanks very much.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Wood, I used Abingdon Spares. I originally had a local carriage maker (Amish country) reproduce the wood but this did not work well.
You will find a Dremel tool very handy for fine fitting of the wood components.

I am sure not period correct but I finished all wood with satin polyurethane.

Wood screws, stainless steel from Bolt Depot Weymouth MA. Excellent service and prices. Used Finnigan's Waxoyl as lubricant for each wood screw. Also used stainless steel bolts, except when using existing captive nuts, from same source.

During deconstruction I did not find any evidence of gluing of wooden joints.
R W Hinton

Hi Tom,

Have you seen the YouTube video of a TD body being made by Hutsons. I don't think it will answer many of your queries but for a T Series enthusiast it is a block buster.

Have a good hogmanay

Jan T
J Targosz

With very limited experience but some general knowledge- I think important to buy all wood from the same supplier and would ask them first if all made by the same place. I would not glue, I think flexing is important as these cars and their chassis are not exactly rigid. The replacement ash wood is really hard, and brass screws may twist off, even with pre-drilled holes so I vote SS there. I salvaged several original pieces with stripped screw holes by cutting a plug out of either new or a good section of original wood, drilling a properly sized hole in the part and gluing it in with wood glue. You may be able to find hardwood dowels as well. George
George Butz

Tom I highly recommend. Quick poly resin and to use it to restore your original timbers to better than new condition. Set up time is three minutes and it literally soaks into timber like a sponge. Tape over holes and fill with the resin. It can be drilled and even threaded. Saves a lot of time rather than fitting new timbers to old steel. I chose not to glue up. I found not evidence of glue in the pieces I replaced. As the chassis flexes so too, does the sheet metal. Since the body is for all intent purposes bolted solidly to the frame it needs to flex with it. JMHO I was not happy with the fit of the Moss A pillars and main frames. Though I used a new main frame with the Pillar I used the quick poly on and it is stronger than when new. The cowl to scuttle timbers from moss were acceptable. I will never buy plywood from them again. Floors were not routed correctly, back panel not drilled correctly package tray panels not drilled properly and fit poorly. Craig is suppose to be top notch though I have not personally used or seen his product laid up.

Regards

Bill Chasser
TD 4834
Bill Chasser Jr

Tom I saw a clip of current model Morgan frames being assembled & the joints were glued just prior to screwing. I appreciate that the whole car does & should flex but I feel that the timber frame should move as a unit with the natural flex inherent in the timber. Perhaps a call to Morgan in the UK would be worthwhile. Some sort of timber preservative should definitely be used & I also recommend the Hutson video. My frame is a mixture of the original English Ash, a sixties repair of one of the doors, sills & both A & B pillars in Australian Red Cedar, as well as my recent door, sill & pillar repair/replacement in Australian Alpine Ash (Tasmanian Oak), with the skinned tub on the chassis. Unable to half lap the joints I used narrow recessed metal plates screwed at the joints. These plates were positioned to allow the fixing of the trim & hood. The sill to pillar to the rear timber joints have to be well joined & solid enough to support the doors & the hood, as the forces applied to both of these areas during use are considerable. I also recommend modifying the hinge, door check, striker & lock fixings to eliminate all of the wood screws, details of which you'll find in the archive. Good luck with the project. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I rebuilt the body of my TD and used Carpenters wood glue at each joint then secured with new zinc plated screws. After a few days, I applied liberal coats of a liquid wood preservative and let the assembly sit for about a month while doing other things. I followed up with a good brush coat of black gloss enamel after covering each screw head with epoxy filler.
I agree with Peter in that the body should be as solid as possible. I figured if the body was allowed to flex, the paint on overlapping metal points could be rubbed off and eventually rust. I had enough rust to last me for a lifetime. All is well after over 20 years. My 2 cents.
Jim Merz

I used Rot Doctor CPES as a wood preservative my tub wood. I also used the filler but the use was minor since my tub was in very good condition. I was impressed with the results of both products.

There is a warm and a cold weather formula that affects drying times. This stuff stinks when you put it on so make sure if used in-doors make sure it is ventilated.

http://www.rotdoctor.com/products/cpes.html


Since the factory didn't use silicone, I didn't bother either.

If I recall correctly, the original wood screws were brass.


Frank



Frank Cronin

I got my wood from Moss and it was pretty decent although I have no comparison as I've only done it once. I did not use glue for the same reason cited by many, the body was made to flex. I used brass screws, carefully drilled and used a dry lubricant on the threads. What saved me the most was having far more clamps available than you'd think was necessary but somehow they all got used. In lieu of a dremel, I used several handplanes, lots of wood rasps and a belt sander to shape the wood. Best of luck!
J Cosin

A further note on wood glues. Having spent a good part of my life restoring Victorian houses I'd noticed that all of the doors I had to repair seemed to share an absence of glue at the stile & rail joints. It transpired that they were glued but the wood glues used then were animal based & once dried, appeared to leave no trace of their use. Perhaps these or similar glues were still in use on our cars in the 50's? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

In salvaging/restoring 'the53' I had to replace virtually every piece of wood (all, but three). IMHO, the symbiotic relationship of the entire tub makes it unwise to attempt to form the tub into a single, locked, structure. I would not suggest the use of glue. Bud
Bud Krueger

I'd be interested to get Morgan's take on this Bud as the method of construction is virtually identical. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I have done two tubs, TC and TF. Real problem finding a good wood source and believe Craig is the best but I think he is only doing TC wood. You need to check. All the wood has to adjusted so be prepared to spend time fitting and adjusting;agree with having hand planes,files and sandpaper on hand plus plenty of patience. Did the TF without the original wood. Would never, never do that again. No glue.
R Brown

I hand made all the wood for my TF in 1970, from NZ Southland Beech (you may find it a little hard to get). When it was again restored by a new owner, about 20 years later, only one piece was replaced. So, I'm still driving the rest happily 45 years after I made it.

I didn't glue it at all - do remember that gluing will greatly complicate any future replacements, apart from the other issues mentioned above. I think I used zinc plated steel screws. I coated the wood with some kind of preservative and painted it before assembly.

Good luck, David

David Provan

Don't know if you can see it in this picture, but there was something, perhaps old animal hide based glue? dobbed onto the joints of the original wood from a TD tub I've rebuilt.
From what I have read Singer, a contemporary of MG, glued their tub wood together as well.
I used Crag Seabrook's wood and the Rot Doctor products to treat it. I also glued my tub wood as well because I believe the tub should flex as a unit and not at the individual joints,especially if you intend to vintage race, JMO. But I will say this- gluing a tub together takes easily twice as long to test fit wood and panels together with about 50 plus clamps, take it apart and sand then put it all back together again over and over to make damn sure every thing fits before you commit to glue. Not for the faint of heart, lol.
For the type of driving most of these cars are now subjected to after a restoration I believe that no glue should be fine. Again just my opinion.
Regards
Hiram

Hiram Kelley

Tom
FWIW I have built 6 TC tubs (two for myself and 4 for others) and have used Resorcinol on all with stainless fasteners without any problems. The glue is a two part product and used in boat building.
Peter Malkin

Peter,
I also used Resorcinol on the several pieces of wood I replaced.
Its the only truly waterproof glue.

Jim B.
JA Benjamin

I rebuilt my TF tub 4 years ago, and very satisfied with the result. I had no previous experience so I approached the task with three things in mind. First was to remind myself how cheaply they were built at the factory. How could I do worse? (I joke they had tolerances of plus or minus 1/4 inch).Second, I had to approach the rebuild the opposite from the way Morris Body's built the tubs. They built the wood framework and wrapped the metal around it. I had to shape the wood around the Sheet metal. Finally, I had to keep things in realistic perspective. I can be so anal, some projects take forever and go way over budget. So with this preamble, here is my opinion.
Don't use glue. Use zinc plated steel screws, stainless is 4 times more expensive and SS slot headed screws are hard to find.Phillip's head doesn't look right on T series. To rejuvenate & preserve my wood I mixed a solution of linseed oil and turpentine 60/40. The old dry wood soaked it up like a sponge and the end grain of the new wood did the same. This mixture makes your shop smell great too. Wipe the wood dry after application and let dry several days. Then paint the wood with a good quality oil based black semi gloss paint. After countless hours of sanding and trial fitting, paying special attention to the door opening spacing. At final assembly I did use 3M marine caulk on the large joints. This caulk has a slow set time, allowing for final adjustment, and when cured is quite flexible. It is paintable. Schach was my primary reference and I bought most of the wood from Classic Wood Mfg in Greensboro, NC and Moss. I also made a few pieces.
JR Mahone

Tom, not too long ago Fenton Bagley was still making wood parts and now living in New Mexico. There is contact information for him in the archives. He is getting up there in age but hey, I can do much better work now at 52 then I could do at 22. If I had it to do over again I would have hauled my tub to New Mexico.
Just my thoughts but I would glue the joints, wood is constantly expanding and contracting which will loosen the joints over time. Maybe they didn't originally glue the joints but they didn't have the superior glues we have today. I use Titebond III ultimate wood glue, a single part glue that I have tested and it is waterproof.
rich40701

The best wood screw and fastener lubricant is LLOYD's AKEMPUCKY. Try it, you will be amazed as was I.

Happy New Year,
Jim
James Neel

Tom,
I believe Fenton Bagley is alive and well in Holman, NM: my Christmas cards are not being returned.

He will respond to a text. Shoot me an email if you want his cell number.

Happy New Year!
Tyler
Tyler Irwin

Tom,

Let me add my voice to the no glue crowd. Wasn't used in the TC and wasnt needed when I built my tubs...screws hold it together just fine.

Gene
Gene Gillam

One thing Tom,You've got to push the hinge bolts all the way through and secure them at the back. This is such a simple thing. I could never figure out why this wasn't done at the works.

Ditto the striker plate.

Just using wood screws part way would be doomed to failure. You'd think someone 70 years ago, could have figured that one out - a virtual no-brainer.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gord Clark

The hinge screws are two 1/4 BSF on each hinge, with nuts on the back. The bottom hinge has a third screw, which is a wood screw.
The strikers have two 2Ba screws, and two wood screws on each striker.
D. Sander

Originally on TFs,the screws were steel,countersunk,slot head in the main with a variety of different gauges.
CHeers
Ron Grantham
TF3719("Aramis")'Tf9177("Athos").
R GRANTHAM

My post got lost on the other thread, I copied it here:

Posted 29 December 2015 at 16:26:06 UK time
D. Sander, Vermont, USA
Tom,

-No glue. The parts need to flex and expand and contract with changes in humidity. A lot of pieces are fit "cross grain" and their fore expand and contract differently. The need to be free to move.

Wood source?
-Craig Seabrook hands down. You will not be disappointed. You will have to do minimal trimming, usuaully with a rasp. I have successfully used his wood with excellent results, and no shimming.

Screws
-Stainless if you can find them. I used no phillips screws, all slotted. Realistically, the car will not get wet on a regular basis. I used a speciality wood working screw pre drill bit to drill the pilot holes and soap on the screws to aid assembly.

Use preservative?
- I coated everything with polyurethane

Use silicone?
- No

Best wood rejuvinator for re-usable wood - Kwik Poly?
-Maybe, I replaced all questionable wood

Other than Schach and Green, is there a recommended resource book?
-This site is good. Assemble the tub sides first, working arround the door. Remember to leave a little more room on the bottom get all the wood done and test fit everything before any assembly. Once the sides are done you can mount them on the frame and skin with the metal. Once each side is done with good fit, you can add the cross brace, scuttle and tank plywood, joining the sides together.
Remember to not seal the metal with sealant, you want moisture to leave the body, not be trapped in it.

D. Sander

This thread was discussed between 29/12/2015 and 02/01/2016

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