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MG TD TF 1500 - Crank ID

Would anyone know if this is an original crank? I have an early 1950 TD.
TD 1851

I believe it says:

ESF&EM
22B/25

If it magnafluxs OK should I consider replacing it with modern technology?

My use is street not racing but I do drive the interstates.
Supercharged
Roller lifters and cam
5 speed
4.55 rear

Thanks,
Mort

Mort 50 TD

If it mags out okay I would run it. After 60+ yrs if it isn't broke its a keeper. But that's JMHO

Bill Chasser jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Referencing P. Wilmer in "Tseries in Detail", a new crankshaft p/n168557 of better steel alloy (EN100) was fitted in May 1953 to XPAG engines after engine XPAG18272. The p/n was visible on the forging, incorporated into the forging dies.
I have a crankshaft with this p/n. It's cracked through the web from the #1 rod journal to the front main bearing journal as revealed by magnaflux.
I also have an earlier crankshaft which has markings similar to what yours has (but not very clear). I assume it is the earlier, lower capability forging.
I would not use either crank in an uprated supercharged engine. The archives have MANY threads to substantiate this viewpoint. On the other hand, there are lots of spare XPAG blocks around!
The Moss/B&G part made by Phoenix in Britain seems to be the only alternative.
T W Moore

I have had two TC race engines in the shop in the past year for freshening, both of which have the same early crank as Mort. One was turned .020/.020, and the other .010/.020; one of the engines put out almost 85HP, the other about 10hp less, both with Laystall-Lucas heads, and both will full-race cams. Forged rods and pistons, polished rocker gear, and over 9.5:1 compression. Neither crank had the slightest flaw, after years of racing.

I have never had a crank break, but the ones that do seem to break for no good reason or prediction, almost always at the first web. I would not hesitate to use one of the cranks in a supercharged engine, just as I would not hesitate to use stock rods.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Mort,
I agree with Tom. Original cranks, as long as they are not cracked, do a good job.

I know the 168557 cranks are the later type but I thought the early cranks had a (5 figure) 225?? number. Your crank might not be an early one. Are there any other numbers forged into it?

Hopefully, someone will recognise the numbers in your photo.

Bob Schapel
R L Schapel

Bob,
That is a photo I took while laying on my back last winter. I don't recall any other marks. I will check when I open the engine.

Tom,
I'm not surprised that it is the same as a TC engine given that mine is such an early TD. Although I don't have details on my cars history there were indications that it was used as a racer in the past. When I got it 5+ years ago it was supercharged with an old Judson. I upgraded to the Eaton a couple of years ago. I don't race it but drive it at highway speeds all the time. However I rarely have to go over 4000 RPM with my drive train. I guess there is merit in what Bill said above "After 60+ yrs if it isn't broke its a keeper".
Mort
Mort 50 TD

Hi Mort,

Just looked at an old crank of mine in shed. It is the later crank and has 168557 stamped between #3 and #4. Between #1 and #2 it has a number a bit like yours. It looks like ESCM 20B/22. Your ESF&EM 22B/25 figures have a trend of being later in the alphabet or larger numbers so I reckon it could be a later crank. I would guess you will find 168557 forged towards the rear end of the crank.

Incidentally, the 5s in my 168557 appear to be backwards! I have other cranks (all 168557s I think) but they are greased, wrapped and stashed away. I reckon someone could do a thesis on XPAG cranks!

oTCagonally, Bob
R L Schapel

Not to hijack Morts tread, one question, was a different crank used in an XPEG engine? PJ
Paul161

Hi Paul,

I don't have much experience with XPEG but I'm pretty sure the crank was the same but nitride hardened. Factory recommendation was not to grind but to replace a worn XPEG crank.

Bob Schapel
R L Schapel

I had one break, but it was my first-ever engine job. I had no one to guide me so I inadvertantly installed the centre main bearing block backwards ... wondered why I had so much trouble turning the crank by hand! Needless to say, it didn't last long!

I've covered this topic several times which can no doubt, be found in the archives.

The TCs and early TDs had cast nodular iron cranks. The factory had some complaints and a new supplier was found in late 1952, who now supplied forged steel cranks. They were definitely stronger but a tad heavier and were probably the best affordable crank.

For reasons I haven't been able to determine, that supplier stopped supplying.

So, long after the XPAG/XPEG engines went out of production and stocks of crank spares ran out, the factory tried to find a supplier that would forge a small quantity of cranks, but could not find any supplier that could do so in a sensible price range.

So the works turned to Phoenix who produced a batch of forged billet Chrome-moly Steel cranks that came in at around $1,500 US dollars; that price today is now running in the $2,900 range.

There is one other supplier - Saanz of Spain - see:- http://www.csanz.com/vista/index.php/EN/fabricacion. I know almost nothing about them , but the photo below of an XPAG crank, reeks of quality.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.

Gord Clark

That crank looks very similar to the one I bought from Manley Ford. Mine has the mgb journals on the rods and new rods from saenz with a floating wrist pin. I was very impressed with the crank and wish I had the ability to check it out now and again, but it's running so well that I don't need to open things up.

Alex
Alex Waugh

This thread was discussed between 09/11/2015 and 12/11/2015

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