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MG TD TF 1500 - Early TD side curtain box nitty details

Hi all

Progress continues on my TD. I'm preparing to attempt the upholstery. I've been trial fitting the compartment wood for the side curtains and studying the remnants of the original pieces. Since this car was in pieces I'm unsure of a couple of things

1) There are 2 pieces that act as door stops that frame the outside edges of the door and have 2 bolt or screws that secure it to the inner fender panel. What exactly is the hardware used tapered screw with a finish washer like on the floors? or hex head with flat and a lock washer?? Can someone post a pic of their outer rear fender well? Clearly if I were to use just a tapered head screw it would pull through because the wood is slotted for a height adjustment.

2) My top panel was completely void of any rexine remnants and was partially missing a side. Is it covered and felt back like the door would be with a ribbon border? Is it fully covered in rexine? Or is the rexine simply wrapped around it and left raw on the bottom?

3). After the vinyl is laid on the fender wells and the side pieces are installed over the fender well covering is the vinyl excess behind the side piece cut flush. I guess what I need is a couple clear pics of the finished inside views of the compartment

4) Lastly, I'm looking at the 3 top rail pieces that the hood fastens to in the rear. These are the original pieces with the original rexine covers still on the short side pieces. The screws that held them in place on the tub clearly were not covered by the rexine. The screws went through it and were visible. I know Chris's site and Horst Schach states the screws are covered. Does anyone have an early car that could comment on the screws. Covered or not

Cheers.

Bill Chasser
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Bill there are very detailed pics of pretty original cars on Chris Couper's site which should answer most of your queries. On the door stops I believe they were originally fitted with a countersunk slot headed machined screw about 3/8" in length. When I purchased my car in 1969 there was one of the original door stops lying in the bottom of the side curtain box with such a screw still attached. At the time I had no idea what it was but resisted the urge to throw it away. I used this as a template & made a pair from Alpine Ash. The screws securing the 3 hood rail pieces are covered so it doesn't really matter what you use as they will never be seen. Just ensure they are the countersunk type so they finish flush. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Bill: I don't have too many pictures of early cars in details but I did upload new pictures for TD11272 the other day. Some of the pictures are what you are looking for.

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/Pictures/TD11272/Thumbnails/mgtd_gallery_thm_TD11272.htm

I never took my 'door stop' pieces off but I thought they were secured with flat head machine screws into captive nuts in the wood pieces. Either that or wood screws. In either case the wood was countersunk I think to allow the tapered head to bed into the wood. You can see the fender well pick here.

I can't remember what the underside of the tray was like. Hopefully someone else has a picture.



Christopher Couper

Captive nuts definitely. Not wood screws. The captive nut was trapped in a sheet metal container which was indeed countersunk. I've lent my original to a mate. When I get it back I'll take a pic & email it to you Bill. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Bill, see http://www.ttalk.info/Hinged_Side_Curtain_Lid.htm for Dave DuBois' idea. It's well worth thinking about. Sure simplifies the packing and unpacking of side curtains. Bud
Bud Krueger

Bill on my 51 the hardware for mounting the side pieces are the same as the floor bolts with one difference ... They are slotted head countersunk machine screws but they have tapered, not flat, ends, to assist in seating into the captive nut holders. And if I remember right, the bottom captive nut holder is adjustable.
Geoffrey M Baker

Also, the screws are not 3/8 in length, more like 1 inch. Again, going on memory, I think they are slightly shorter than the standard floor screw. I'll pull one and take a pic for you today.
Geoffrey M Baker

Hey Bud: That's cheating. I even have to get my manual out to help remember the stacking order :-)
Christopher Couper

Thanks Peter and Chris I have poured over the pics on Chris' s site and even copied all the pages into a book as reference and helpful instruction. I know that the published restoration books all have gaps and some misinformation so I've tried to glean all that I can from them and of course this group. But the pics I've found are either not the detail I need or are not clear enough for my eyes to discern. No ones fault but my own deficits.

Peter yes they are t nuts captivated and both slide within the slots in the wood and retained by the U brackets.

Geoffrey. With the tapered screws I have found a few that may meet that spec. Do they get a finish washer like the floorboards as well? My panels don't have any distortion there like where this type of screw attaches the metal frame to the inner panels. With the slots in the wood door stop pieces to allow up and down adjustment there is nothing for the screws to pull against without pulling through the holes in the inner fender well TIA for the pic

Thank you Bud and Chris I will look over the sites again.
W. A. Chasser Jr

Surprised that yours are an inch Geoff as they just have to travel through one thickness of metal (the inner guard) & two thicknesses of vinyl, then engage in the sliding nut holder, as the stop is fitted hard up against the inner guard. On mine the housing is only about half the depth of the width of the stop. It's possible my screws could be as long as 5/8" though. Both nuts are able to slide in the holder, presumably to allow for any error in the location of the inner guard holes. These are arranged so that the stop, hence the door, is angled forward at the top when correctly installed. Both the bottom & top of the stop are cut at an angle to ensure this. I'll be over at the car later in the week Bill & will take a pic of the holes in the inner guard. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Just a note: I think Geoffrey you mentioned that your machine screws were tapered? I assume you mean that the ends are not blunt but bullet shaped? Some of the floor and tunnel machine screws were in fact tapered to assist in lining up the parts when using captive or hidden fasteners, especially when there were multiple layers.

Bill: There were no washers on the machine screws holding the door stops in place. They just compressed the metal into the door stop countersinks so they appeared flat.

Sorry this is the best image I have and you can barely make out the screw heads in the wheel wells. But they are flush with the surface.

Dave Braun's website has an excellant picture and a lot of other pictures you should see too. Pretty much what you want is on Dave's pages. A great resource.

http://www.dbraun99.com/mgtd15470/Tub/Tub%20Disassembly/slides/rear%20wheel%20arch%20on%20slave%20chassis%20RHS.html
Christopher Couper

Here's a pic. Yes, Chris, I was referring to the conical ends of the screws, the bodies are not tapered. As you can see they are a bit shorter (1 1/8") inch compared to the regular length (1 1/4). You can of course just cut and grind your own screws to fit. They are fine thread bsf screws of course.
Bill Chasser: Unless your holes have become enlarged or elongated they should be fine. The countersunk heads just make a dimple in the fender wall and I've seen no evidence of them pulling through.

Geoffrey M Baker

I pulled the two above screws from my workshop. Once I posted them, I noticed that the left one was either heavily damaged or had been hand ground to fit. So just to be on the safe side, I pulled a correct one from my wheelwell and took a picture of it and checked the measurement. 1 1/8 inch long. Notice the screw has a much more acute angle on the conic end.

Peter, don't know what to tell you, mine are definitely longer than yours, I don't know why. Mine is from a Sept 51 TD; it is possible they changed lengths for some reason... I imagine my wood pieces are probably thicker than yours, and possibly my door is a little narrower?

Geoffrey M Baker

To help clear up the length issue reported by Peter: here are pictures of the captive nuts in the wooden rails, and show the thickness of the rail. The screw passes through the wooden rail to engage the sliding captive nuts (yes both are free to slide) and the rail itself is over an inch thick. So mine need 1 1/8 inch long screws to engage the captive nuts. But we all know that MG tended to switch things around from week to week :) the first picture shows the captive nut holders.

Geoffrey M Baker

Here is the side of the rail with the rexine pulled back you can see that the nut holder has a backing metal piece that folds around the wood..

Geoffrey M Baker

And here is the countersunk screw head sitting inside the fender. If I had remembered how annoying it is to get these to fit back in, I wouldn't have taken it out to take these pictures :)

Geoffrey M Baker

Thanks for the pics Geoff. When I get mine back I'll do some measuring. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Bud,Chris, Geoffrey and Peter Thank you for your responses.

Bud and Chris I will go over the links again and try to glean what I can. I'm operating off my phone at the moment as my PC is down again due to adware intrusions that I can't seem to get rid of. Bud in reviewing DB's site I didn't realize the pics opened up whole folders on the subjects. Lots of great pics and how to's but I can seem to expand them on the phone a see detail. They pixelate before I can see what I'm looking at. Will try again when the PC is up

Geoffrey A BIG THANK YOU for your efforts to clarify my questions. Disassembling your car however was over the top. I don't know anyone one that has done that before. The screws must be just the right length to hold the stops in position. Thinking they bottom out on the U bracket/ retainer that holds the T nuts. Like I said in my OP there is no dimpling regarding the holes that retain the stops like there are in retaining the steel subframe for the tub. This was what brought the question up. With the adjustment slots in the stops it doesn't leave much for the screws to pull against which is why I thought finish washers may have been used. I know I have a upper hole on the left side that has been oblonged. I don't remember about the right side.

W. A. Chasser Jr

Wow Geoffrey: That's dedication to the team taking your car apart to answer a question.
Christopher Couper

It wasn't that big a job :) Plus, I think I've taken this apart about five times this month already, installing the rollbar and new floor and sound system :)

I just had to be sure I hadn't pulled the wrong screw from my bins and thus wasn't giving out the wrong information on size etc!

Bill, I don't see any problem if you want to use floor washers in the wheel well! On my car, I just don't see any damage and they are fine without washers. But if they are ovalling out, washers would be a good idea...
Geoffrey M Baker

Well I have finally know my limitations. Upholstery. Although I managed to get the screws his in the rear hood tack strip I couldn't figure out how to do the side strips and be able to hide the screws with good results. I'm fed up and have decided to shelve the effort and leave it to someone else. Really would like to find someone who has done t series interiors so it gets done right near Sacramento ca. Had a line on a business that has done award winning restorations in San Leandro but he doesn't return phone calls. So I guess I will go back to getting the engine to the machine shop
W. A. Chasser Jr

This thread was discussed between 11/01/2015 and 14/01/2015

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