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MG TD TF 1500 - Engine Casting Numbers
| A couple days ago while searching the BBS archives to see if my XPEG engine had the correct oil dipstick I saw references to a casting date, cast into the engine block located behind the oil dipstick. An article titled "XPEG - Casting Numbers Where?" gave many specifics. Of course I had to investigate the casting numbers on my engine and found 9909 L 4. I checked several times to make sure I read the numbers correctly. The casting number reveals the engine block in my TF was cast on 9 December 1954. With that said, the build date on my car is 30 November 1954. MY QUESTION IS: HOW CAN THE CASTING DATE ON THE ENGINE BLOCK BE A LATER DATE THAN THE VEHICLE BUILD DATE? The TF's ID tag shows vin # HDC46/8263, Engine # XPEG 2110 and a vehicle build date of 30 Nov 1954. The engine number of 2110 is on the brass tag on the engine and is stamped on the block by the tag. All other numbers on the engine and head are correct for the XPEG engine. Even the British Motor Industry Heritage Trust certificate confirms the Vehicle build date, car and engine numbers. Any thoughts of how this might have happened? Mark Stolzenburg Chesterfield, Missouri, USA TF 8263 |
| Mark Stolzenburg |
| The block could have been replaced some time in its existence and the brass tag moved from the old to the new block. |
| Lew3 |
| I have checked your production record and find your numbers all correct, with no indication there of any engine replacement before shipment. I doubt if anyone would re-stamp the engine number when replacing it with another block, and wonder if we could be mistaken in how we read the engine mfg. date? An XPEG core engine here in the shop has the cast "7506G4", which seems to be 6 July 1954, with a car build date of 1 October 54, so that time-frame works out fine. I'm also puzzled. Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| Tom I know mg production wasn't as furious as say GM but I wouldn't think an engine would languish in the production line for three months before it was transplanted into a chassis. Even if components were bought by suppliers in batches I don't think they would sit on the floor of either the foundry, engine assembly plant or the chassis production line for any length of time as it would take up valuable floor space JMHO Certainly raises more questions Bill Chasser TD 4834 |
| W. A. Chasser Jr |
| Tom, I feel like you do. My XPEG block date-code doesn't seem right. Car No. HDC46/7211 Engine No. XPEG/977 The engine number stamped on the block and on the brass medallion match the number plate ... 977. The car was built 23 Sep 1954 The block "date code" is 3203J4. Assuming that the letter "I" was not used because it could be mistaken for a "1", then the block was cast on 03 Sep 1954, just twenty days before the car was built. Not much time to cool, mill, assemble, inspect, and ship. If the letter "I" was not skipped, then the block was cast on 03 Oct 1954, after the car was built. Do we know if any letters in the code were skipped? Seems like it would have been easier to stamp the date code into the block instead of changing the mold each day. Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| I have always heard that cast iron needs time to age before being used. I am under the impression that unless the blocks we're temperature cycled the would need to sit for between 6 months to a year. Jim B |
| JA Benjamin |
| One possible reason for the delay Bill is that there may have been an issue with the car at the end of the assembly line. Simplest solution would be to just replace the engine, especially if the fault was not immediately apparent. The removed engine would have then gone to be checked, have the problem rectified & then put back in stock for subsequent use. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Lonnie/Peter - the Production Records show when engines were exchanged on the line with old and new numbers; there is no such indication for either of these engines. Early XPEG engines had a definite problem, since 8 of the first 32 1500 cars needed an XPEG engine change... Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| My TF 8281 was also built on November 30, 1954. It's XPEG is long gone, and was as far back as 1963. The car has only covered 50,000 miles, most since 1963. The XPEG did not live a long life in my TF. David |
| D. Sander |
| Did you notice that each of the three engines in this thread were cast before the 10th of the month according to the "date code"? 09, 06, 03 Perhaps the "date code" isn't really a date code. Maybe it has another meaning. Any documented confirmation of the code system? Wonder if Barrie Jones, the TF registrar for the MG Car Club, could shed some light on the subject. Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Mark indicated the date in question was CAST into the block, not stamped. If it was cast, it certainly wouldn't change from one engine to the next. I suppose, therefore, it could be the date of the casting mold, not the date of the block. Yes, the sand mold was destroyed with each block cast, but the form from which the mold was made would have remained intact. |
| Lew3 |
| I agree with Lonnie and Lew3, I don't think the coding is being interpreted correctly. Also, I find it difficult to believe that blocks would be left to cure for 6 to 12 months before use. It seems some more research might be needed here before the number sequence is decoded into date and/or batch information. |
| DLD |
| Gents. I don't know the answer to this code mystery, but being a Brit, having worked in manufacturing, and developed coding systems for parts myself, I have a suggestion. 9909L4 is the 99th engine made in Sept 54, to engine variant L. Its a guess, but fits. Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| There is an increase in tensile strength and machinability in cast irons of various compositions, over time. However the work to show this is relatively recent, and indicates approx. 10% improvement over a 12 month period. I doubt that there was any drive to stock serious quantities of blocks for that level of improvement. If it had been carried out, then I am sure it would be well known for the major motor manufacturers having stock yards full of blocks awaiting their turn. |
| Ian Bowers |
| To David Sanders: Since your TF 8281 was produced on the same day as my TF, do you have the original engine number that was originally put into your TF? I'm thinking it would be the engine number still on the vehicle ID tag on the firewall. Also, a numerical serial number listing of TF's with engine numbers might verify the sequence of engine installations and might offer some insight as to if the "engine date codes" are really date codes at all. Mark Stolzenburg Chesterfield, Missouri, USA TF 8263 |
| Mark Stolzenburg |
| Mark - XPEG engine #2131 was installed in TF8281. Build date Tuesday, 30-Nov-1954. I did a fast search of chassis numbers and engine numbers for cars build around the date of my TF7211, engine XPEG/977, build date Thursday 23-Sep-1954. http://www.tregister.org/search_prod.php Looks like: > About 35 cars were built per day. > Most engine numbers were in about the same range as engine numbers in other cars built on that day, but not in sequence. > A few chassis numbers were out or order - build dates. Other fun facts: > 99 Chassis numbers researched (TF7198 - TF7297) > 97 Cars were for North America (LHD) > 1 Car for UK (RHD) TF7253 > 1 Chassis number did not have information available TF7234 > Cars were produced in batches of the same color. > 17 Black "A" paint code, all built on Monday 27-Sep-1954. Other colors were also built on that day. > 22 Light grey "B" paint code > 56 Red "C" paint code > 3 Ivory "P" paint code Tom Lange is the human database for this info. Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Yes, TF 8281 was built with XPEG 2131. Anybody have it? It has a TD XPAG bored out to 1466cc. It runs well, but is not a "true" 1500. TF 8281 is a low mileage, mostly original black car with a red interior. It was shipped to California when new. I have traced the history back to 1962, when the transmission went. It already had the TD engine by then. It only had somewhere arround 20,000 miles on it then. Something happened to XPEG 2131 quite early on. David. 
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| D. Sander |
| My initial research on the BBS achieves indicated that the casting numbers where in-fact the date the engine block was cast. However, based on the above member comments, maybe this is not the case at all. I'm wandering if there are any definitive answers as to what the actual casting numbers/dates mean, or is this one of those MG mysteries that we will never quite have an answer for - only speculation? Thanks,(I know, I don't give up easily!) Mark Stolzenburg Chesterfield, Missouri TF 8263 |
| Mark Stolzenburg |
| To: David Sanders - Interestingly TF 8272 built on the same day as our cars 30 Nov 1954 just came up for sale on eBay (item# 222038502391). It has XPEG engine number 2098 showing on the data plate. Looks like the engines numbers went into the cars in no particular sequence: My car -- TF 8263 ----- Engine Number 2110 eBay car- TF 8272 ----- Engine Number 2098 Your car -TF 8281 ----- Engine Number 2131 Mark Stolzenburg Chesterfield, Missouri TF 8263 |
| Mark Stolzenburg |
| I would love to see the engine on the eBay car up close. I would not be surprised if the engine has been swapped out. This car, like mine was originally black. David. |
| D. Sander |
| Mark, In my experience in serving my appreniceship in a dockyard any part which had a number cast into it was actually the pattern number. The number was pressed into the pattern by the pattern maker and remained with it until the pattern or the mould wore out. If a new pattern was needed to be created depending upon the numbers required to be cast it could still have the same number or maybe a different number if there was a need to modify or slightly change the design as small as it may have been. John...Sydney |
| John Walton |
| Hi Mark - you mention: "Also, a numerical serial number listing of TF's with engine numbers might verify the sequence of engine installations and might offer some insight as to if the "engine date codes" are really date codes at all." I think it is a mistake to assume that there was any strict, constant, sequential relationship between a car number and the engine number. The factory would have no interest in maintaining a strict, constant, sequential relationship as it would serve no practical purpose. Such a relationship would also be impossible to maintain - even if it had been desired. With engines being produced in one location, bodies being produced in another, and the chassis being built up at the factory, it would be impossible for the production line to be governed by something as unimportant as a consistent mating of sequential engines to sequential chassis assemblies. While there may have been some informal, convenient, delivery-prompted, happenstance sequential matings, I seriously doubt MG would have given any thought to maintaining the pattern. There would have been any number of reasons that engines and/or chassis/body assemblies would been pulled from the various production lines for rectification. As you say though, some compilation of the engine and car numbers might shed light on the numbers cast into the blocks. I cant believe that those were date codes - but who knows - it is certainly something that needs further study. |
| DLD |
| Here are engine numbers installed in TF7198 through TF7297. Additional cars may have been produced on the dates shown. http://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxisXBEpc-IWcW1LbDBHaW04TkU/view?usp=sharing Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Off thread I know but what's really intriguing for me Lonnie is the colour of TF 7252 & 7253. Everything else, apart from the two ivory cars at the head of the list, are in substantial batches of the same colour. Why then should these two cars not be part of a colour batch & also be different colours? Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Peter, To me it looks as though they were pulled off the production line for some purpose, maybe waiting for a part or awaiting random inspection for quality control purposes. There could be a load of reasons for this. John |
| John Walton |
| A scratched body requiring paint repair before assembly could be a possibility. They are at the end of the day or on an odd day. Matthew. |
| M Magilton |
| As Lonnie wrote above, "Tom Lange is the human database for this info." I do indeed have print-outs of the original Production Records (from which the on-line information was entered) First of all, I can add to Lonnie's list that 7234 ("Not Found") was HDC46 7234 XPEG1067 27/9/54 7233 seems to be omitted from the list: HDC46 7233 XPEG1057 27/9/54. All but one car between 7214 to 7290 were made on 27/9/54 - a busy day, with about 76 cars made. The engine number for one stand-out, 7253, is written by a different hand and/or at a different time than all the surrounding numbers. And that makes sense since that one car was actually produced on 1/10/54. The "different" handwriting DOES match the listing of cars made on 1/10/54, so it was most likely to be a special order - a RHD red lacquer car. Very few RHD XPEGs were built at that time. I have to go more than 600 cars ahead to find a single other RHD 1500, so this must have been made specially for a good UK customer, a member of the firm, or someone else with considerable clout. 7252 also stands out as being another lacquer paint job - a grey LHD US car. They are probably paired because they are the only two lacquer paint jobs for many, many cars in production. There was NO TF production between 27/9 and 1/10, so perhaps 7252 was finished at the end of 27/9, and 7253 was the first produced on the next workday, 1/10? I'm happy to answer any Production Record questions, as time permits. Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| Tom - you answered some of the following questions while I was typing my question. Thanks for the info. I love this type of "detective work!" I omitted some cars that were built on 23-Sep-1954 from the list ... TF7190 - TF7197. The cars were Ivory cars for North America. Engine numbers maintained the approximate sequence. This brings total TF-1500s built on 23-Sep-1954 to twenty-four. More questions: > Why were TF7252 and TF7253 painted with cellulose on wings, instead of just on the body? > Why was TF7253 (RHD) built on 1-Oct-1954? > What happened to TF7234? This list of chassis numbers is only a small sample. The answers to our questions might be evident in a larger range of chassis numbers. The list is a MS Excel worksheet. Download it to sort and filter data, or to add data. (Downward pointing arrow with a bar across the tip near the top center of the window) Source: http://www.tregister.org/search_prod.php Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Lonnie - glad to help with my perspective. I show a total of 40 TF1500's built on 23/9/54. To address your specific questions: 7252-3 were NOT painted as you note, but were all cellulose (lacquer ) - code 3 As I suggested in my earlier note, I think that 7252 and 7253 were built together because they have a distinct paint - code 3, while most others are code 6, and one was built at the end of one work day, the other was built at the beginning of the next workday. I'm not sure what you mean about 7234 - it is there on-line. Help me out if I am missing something! Tom |
| t lange |
| Thanks again, Tom - You're not missing anything, I'm just showing my MG-newbee ignorance! > I must have entered the chassis number for TF7234 incorrectly into the search box on http://www.tregister.org/search_prod.php > I meant the same that you stated about TF7252 and TF7253 being painted with lacquer on the body AND the wings. I just stated it poorly. Learning something new everyday about these cars, Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Interesting that these two cars were produced just before the 1954 Earls Court Motor Show. Anyone have an image from that show? Matthew. |
| M Magilton |
| In Conclusion: Based on the multiple input from BBS members it appears that the casting date found behind the dipstick tube did not have anything to do with engine build dates or casting dates. Rather it was a date put on the casting mold or pattern for sand casting the engine blocks at the foundry.(Hope this makes sense :>) I might even speculate that the date was a date when the casting mold ended it's useful life expectancy. I would also speculate that several casting molds existed at the same time since most foundries cast multiple blocks from a single batch of molten cast iron. You learn something new every day! Thanks for all the input! Mark Stolzenburg Chesterfield, Missouri TF 8263 |
| Mark Stolzenburg |
| Mark, They would cast as many as they were able in the one run depending upon the capacity of the ladle carrying the molten metal. The best cast iron is one which is left out in the weather to age prior to machining. John...Sydney |
| John Walton |
| The strengthening process of time discussed above is not for any engine. It is particular engines that have sat unused (as in a junk yard) for 20 years. Thereabouts. BMW 1600 and 2002 engines come to mind. |
| D mckellar |
This thread was discussed between 25/02/2016 and 06/03/2016
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