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MG TD TF 1500 - Fanelli Cam Spring Installation
| I'm about to install the Fanelli street cam that arrived a couple of days ago. The valve springs were replaced today, with Len's springs that form part of his kit, by a mechanic who has installed the Fanelli cam into his YT recently, with me as his offsider. A couple of noteworthy items. The kit does not come with new spring seats or caps. Len advises that the spring seats can be omitted. However the caps obviously do need to be installed. The springs that came with the YT supercharged street cam kit are 1.300" in diameter while the springs that arrived with mine are 1.440". Both are larger than the original springs, mine considerably so. The YT seats were heated & expanded to accomodate the springs without too much trouble but this approach was impossible with mine, as an extra 140" + was required. Len's other suggested approach was to grind back the width of the bottom coil. Removing 140" + however, didn't sit well with either of us. When we test fitted the spring without the seat we found that the 1.440" spring sits neatly into the circular space machined into the head to accomodate the spring seat. First problem solved. The spring caps however were a much bigger issue as the original caps couldn't be reused. The only solution here was to replace the caps. Fabre Australia supplied me with a pack of 16 caps (designed for a V8 but I couldn't buy just half a pack!). They cost $108 (HC-97118 Howards Retainer Steel 1.437" / 1.450" x 11/32 7). The 7 refers to 7 degrees. The good news is they fitted like a glove! So if anybody in Oz is planning to install a Fanelli cam & is sent the 1.440" springs, I can supply you with the necessary caps at cost & save you $54! Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| I've found a good home for the eight remaining valve spring caps as they can also be used with Len's 1.300" diameter springs. Pic shows the installed 1.440" springs fitted to my head using the HC-97118 Howards caps. Note how well Len's springs sit in the existing circular space machined into the head. Cheers Peter TD 5801 
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| P Hehir |
| Peter, the springs you pruchased do work with the MG retainer.The Howards caps or upper retainers are designed for a 11 / 32 inch stem,they should not be used on a 8 MM MG valve stem.I do not recommended grinding the lower coil. I did recommended that you purchase the improved springs which are supplied with retainers that fit better. Len |
| Len Fanelli |
| Len you have mail! |
| P Hehir |
| Peter, sorry, I did state that the bottom of the newer improved spring can be champfered to fit the OEM lower loactor, if my lower locator is not used. This only applies to the new improved springs. Len |
| Len Fanelli |
| Thank you |
| P Hehir |
| Len. The fact remains that the 1.440" springs that you provided do NOT fit under the OEM spring cap. How can I confirm that 8 degrees is correct not 7? |
| P Hehir |
| Or are you saying that 7 degrees is correct but that it's the 11/32" that's incorrect & I need to find a cap to fit an 8mm valve stem? |
| P Hehir |
| Peter, Would you please contact me offline? Thanks, Gene |
| Gene Gillam |
| Gene you have mail. Cheers |
| P Hehir |
| Fabre Australia now confirm that the 11/32" imperial retainer will not fit a metric 8mm M.G. TD valve stem. 11/32" is 8.7mm. I will have to dismantle the head again & try & source retainers that do fit. Fabre apologise for the error & confirm that whatever retainer is used it is essential that they cover at least 1/2 the thickness of the outside spring "wall". The OEM retainers do not meet this criterion with the 1.440" spring supplied by Len. Apologies for any confusion caused. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Just spent a fruitless day trying to locate both 8mm retainers & a suitable lower valve spring locator. Neither of these items exist here in Australia nor anywhere else it would seem. An even bigger problem is that the recommended installed height of the Fanelli 1.440" spring cannot be achieved without the use of a specially fabricated lower locator. It was also recommended by the supplier that the spring can be installed without the lower locator (see pic above) however this results in an installed spring height 155" higher, making the desired 160 psi impossible to achieve! (Increased installed height = reduced spring pressure). Clearly this approach simply doesn't work! I did manage to get some real information from Fabre Australia in that the spring retainer lock taper angle on a TD head is actually 10 degrees, not 7. Not that this helps me any. So to sumarise. The Fanelli supplied 1.440" dia springs cannot be used with either the existing retainer or the existing locator, in spite of assertions to the contrary! Options are to have new valves, retainers, locks & lower locators specially made to order from America, to suit the 1.440" springs OR request that the supplier provide springs (max dia 1.300") that enable the use of the existing retainers, locks, valves & locators & also achieve the desired installed height of 1.785". I have emailed Mr Fanelli & requested that he forward a set of springs that actually do what they are supposed to do. I'll let you know what his response is. Not so cheerful Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Peter This may go against the grain, however check out Toyota parts they may match up. My engine re builder got me out of a jamb using Tojo parts when I had my XPAW head converted, I know your case is a different scenario. |
| G Evans |
| Graeme, I'll give Mr Fanelli a chance to come good otherwise I'll be forced to find springs, retainers & locators that achieve the desired 160psi @ the recommended installed height of 1.785" elsewhere, including Toyota. So far I've had no reply to my last email. Thanks mate Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Peter - please contact me off-line. Thanks. Tom Lange |
| t lange |
| It appears I'm not alone. I've had a number of emails confirming there are indeed issues with the springs as supplied with the Fanelli kit. A major one that I'd not considered deals with the folly of using the springs without a lower locator. The two major issues here are that the springs will gradually eat into the head upsetting both the head & the timing & that each spring will need to be shimmed individually (as much as 60")due to depth differences in the machined valve spring recess! As explained above using this approach is unworkable anyway because it is impossible to achieve the desired 160 lbs without a suitable lower locator. On the valve that we checked the spring needed to be raised 155" Hmmmmm... Not happy.. not happy at all! Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Well this is interesting. My roller kit is still in the box with what sounds like springs that won't work. I've heard nothing but raves about the roller kit, wonder why this hasn't come up before. |
| Rich (TD 3983) Taylor |
| Email me direct Rich & I pass on all the info I've gathered so far from quite a few of his customers, who obviously don't wish to be named. (It should be said that once the cam is installed however there don't appear to be any problems). In the last very short email I had from Mr Fanelli he said he "would discuss my perceived concerns when he got back from vacation". Meanwhile I'm still waiting to reassemble the head. I'm on pjbm(at)bigpond.com Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Peter, I used the original retainers and ground the edge of the springs a bit to fit. A couple of photos follow. Mort 
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| Mort 50 TD (Mobius) |
Photo 2
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| Mort 50 TD (Mobius) |
| Mort, Rest assured you didn't get the original spring set with your cam. Gene |
| Gene Gillam |
| I have yet to install our cam package, and have studied the new springs vs just reusing the originals. I plan on checking the old ones as they may have already been upgraded by previous owner. I also want to evaluate the new springs with respect to just eliminating the lower locator. I understand higher spring rates are desirable for a number of reasons, but in our case, with the MGB 3.9 rear end, our high speed cruising is down in the 3000-4000rpm range, so I'm not that concerned. Considering new valves and exhaust seats are going in, the valves will probably last the lifetime of the NEXT owners. That owner will be happy knowing the roller lifter package won't be selfdestructing like a flat lifter cam. One other minor issue is the larger springs will interfere with the aluminum "coffin" valve cover moreso than the smaller springs. I've already ground reliefs in the inside of our cover to the point where anymore grinding will surely gouge out a hole. I could grind out the holes for the two studs that hold the cover down and shove it over a bit farther, but I also just procured a decent chrome plated stock TD cover. One of our club members headed across country with his TD pulling a small trailer. He had to abandon his car & trailer because the engine developed a knock, and had to have them shipped back individually. I had emailed him a bit too late to try readjusting his coffin cover, and that proved to be the culprit. |
| JRN JIM |
| Roller lifters require higher spring pressures - the ramp on the roller cam is steeper than a flat tappet cam and there is a chance they'll bounce. The following springs will fit and do not require grinding the coffin cover (ask me how I know): http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP-Cams/249/26925-1/10002/-1?parentProductId= |
| Gene Gillam |
| Every time I've considered one of these cams, a discussion like this comes up and there never seems to be a good resolution. I don't have time to fiddle with replacing brand new parts that don't fit. My car gets driven too much to sit in the garage nonoperational. Was the problem with block interference around the lifters ever solved? |
| Steve S |
| This topic got me thinking so I took my head to a local shop and had a couple of the springs and retainers disassembled and the retainers do not fit. Below is a picture and they are deffinately not the same as Morts' springs. Interestingly the old valves had dual springs on them already but they have very little tension. I seem to remember getting an email about better improved springs and I am use to buying a computer and it becoming obsolete as soon as I walk out the door but geez a valve spring. I guess I'll be like Scarlett and think about this tomorrow or better yet let a machine shop figure it out. 
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| Rich (TD 3983) Taylor |
Here are the springs and retainers that were on the head. I don't think these are original either.
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| Rich (TD 3983) Taylor |
| Steve the lifters can be installed in either of 2 ways according to the supplier. If the link is on the inside, the block does need to be ground. If on the outside he supplies 3 washers which prevent the cork breather gasket from fouling the lifters. I can't confirm this as I'm still farting about with the springs! Back to Fabre today with an original & LF kit (1.440") spring, an original lower locator, an original retainer & a pair of original split collets (locks). What I need to know is the following: What is the taper of the original M.G. TD locks? 7 degrees or 10 degrees? What is the open spring pressure of the Fanelli springs 250 lbs or 405 lbs as I've seen both figures? If 405 lbs is the correct open pressure can the original valve handle that massive increase without sooner or later losing it's head? Does either Comp Cams, Crane Cams, Manley or anybody make the correct tension springs that CAN be used with the original retainer, locator & locks without modification? I've had many offline replies from people who have had the cam installed for them & most report the shop they used encountered problems with the kit springs. I have also spoken to a couple of guys who like me have actually undertaken the job themslves. (I'll let them speak for themselves!) In order for me to proceed I do need answers to my questions above. So far nobody that I'm aware of has complained about the performance of the cam. This is the feint glimmer of light that I can just make out at the end of what seems to me to be a bloody unnecessarily long tunnel! I remain, yours sincerly, far from happy Len! Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| This is all very interesting since I was considering the Cam Kit myself and wondered if there were any significant issues that were worth addressing. I would really appreciate anyone who has actual experience with installing this cam kit to take a few minutes and inform us about what to expect or be informed about before we become involved in an expensive experience. |
| Richard Cameron |
| Jim. I had another chat with Fabre today. I know they're in the business of selling components but they do strongly urge caution in relation to this installation. I am convinced that stronger valve springs for use with the Fanelli cam are not an option but a necessity & would advise against using the original M.G. springs. So far I've had no luck finding stronger springs @ an OD of 1.3" or slightly less so that I could reuse the original retainers, locks & locators, however I will keep looking. I also have had the Fanelli kit spring tested on a valve spring tester today & its characteristics are as follows; OD is 1.440" ( slightly less than 1.300" is ideal) Length is 2.340" Outer coil thickness is .180" Inner coil thickness is .140" The spring tests @ 160 lbs @ 1.785" Locator valve guide bore is .555" Both Fabre & Comp Cams caution against using the original valves, retainers, locks, & locators with the stronger springs simply because the original setup was never designed for the increased cam lobe load. They say it might be fine for a while but if/when a retainer or valve goes it could do untold damage. Fabre have quoted about $600 to supply new made to measure valves, micro polished springs, retainers, locks & locators designed to work with the roller lifters. Sure they're in business to make money, but as the Fanelli 1.320" springs with titanium retainers cost $400 plus shipping to Oz, there's bugger all in it. The extra $50 or so buys a lot of peace of mind! I don't plan to thrash the car but its nice to know that if I do put my foot down nothing is going to break. Food for thought. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| I had never done any engine work before I installed Len's cam and lifters. I found it rather easy and straightforward. When a question arose Len was helpful and responsive. The only modification I made was a little grinding of the bottom OD of the spring as I showed above. The current product offered may have these issues resolved. Check with Len as he has been improving and modifying the product as experience dictates. Mort |
| Mort 50 TD (Mobius) |
| I've tried Mort, but he's away on vacation & not returning my emails. See my post above. The grinding is NOT recommended. Call me old fashioned but when I buy a kit I expect the components to do what the supplier says they'll do! The springs supplied with the kit can't be used with original retainers & locators & most AM rocker covers require modification (see Jnr Jim's post!). The "new" springs & retainers, including shipping, are about the same cost as new locally made to measure valves, micro polished springs, retainers, locks & lower locators that are specifically designed for use with roller lifters in a V8 & actually DO fit without modification. As I said above, peace of mind using components actually designed for the purpose! Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| I have now found answers to the 3 questions I posed above: What is the taper of the original M.G. TD locks? 7 degrees or 10 degrees? DEFINITELY 10 DEGREES. I just got back from Barrow Engineering here in Sydney where the owner placed my locks on a shadowgraph. This proves conclusively that the original TD locks are precisely 10 degrees. I witnessed this procedure with my own eyes. What is the open spring pressure of the Fanelli springs 250 lbs or 405 lbs as I've seen both figures? 250 LBS CMP-26925-1 Comp Cams 26925-1 Dual Valve Springs 1.320" OD 400 lbs. This is a spring that has been recommended by LF. (The 400 lbs is when coil bind occurs.) If 405 lbs is the correct open pressure can the original valve handle that massive increase without sooner or later losing it's head? SEE ABOVE. I now know what I require & am looking for a 1.300" OD spring with the characteristics of a Comp Cams 26925, a retainer with a 10 degree taper & a locator (spring seat) to suit. I may have better luck finding a deposit at the rear of a rocking horse. I'll keep you posted. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Slight correction to the last post. The 405lbs isn't when coils bind occurs. The Comp Cams 26925 spring is designed for use in a LS V8 GM Holden Commodore with a significantly larger valve lift. The 405 lbs refers to the open pressure when the spring is used in that application. I may have found a suitable dual spring & spring seat (locator) here in Oz. When I confirm suitability I will post the details. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| 4695 |
| Len Fanelli |
| 4695? |
| P Hehir |
Try this: http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=CC&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=4695-16&Category_Code= http://www.amazon.com/COMP-Cams-4695-100-Valve-Spring/dp/B001G8LNRE |
| J Barry |
| OK JB. I'll check it out. |
| P Hehir |
| Judging by the cryptic 4695, I guess Mr Fanelli is back. I still have had no reply to my emails. On the subject of communication, or rather the lack of it, one of the many emails I've received from dissatisfied Fanelli customers just arrived, which really made me laugh! It brightened my day so I thought I'd share it with you. "Peter. That was a good one about the supplier responding. Trying to get anything out of Len is really tough going. I have a cam on the shelf and haven't yet dealt with the issues. Interested in reading about your journey with these. Almost makes the thought of taking up golf attractive!" Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Just a short note re the Comp Cams 26925 valve spring. Fabre confirm the open pressure of this spring is 405 lbs. The guy from Fabre says as our valve lift is much shorter than the GM V8 LS Commodore, that the 26925 spring is designed for, they DON'T recommend its use in our application because of what he called valve float. I understood him to say this is not good & happens if the desired open pressure is reached well above coil bind, that is when the spring is totally compressed onto the head. If Fabre is correct, this is yet another thing that Mr Fanelli has got wrong! If I had my druthers & the money, knowing what I know now, I'd buy the cam, roller lifters & pushrods direct from the manufacturer and I'd source purpose built titanium beehive springs, with hollow titanium valves, titanium retainers & locks! And I would expect that the cam manufacturer would supply a timing card & installation instructions! But I guess I'll just have to persevere trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear! Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| There are some springs on ebay now. MGTC MGTD MGTF 1250 1500 Extra Strong Valve spring set |
| Rich (TD 3983) Taylor |
| Rich, as the open & installed spring pressures required for the efficient operation of the roller lifters used in conjunction with the high lift "Fanelli" cam, (which probably should be more accurately referred to as the "Chet Herbert" cam, as it seems Mr Fanelli had nothing to do with the original design), are significantly higher than those required for the original lifters, it is essential that springs with the correct OP & IP at the appropriate installed height are used. If you are able to provide an ebay link I'll check them out. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Just checked them out Rich & these are the springs I have now & are unsuitable for the Chet Herbert cam. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| JB the links you provided are for locators. The first is for a box full for over $200 & the second for 16. They're obviously off a V8 but again wont fit as they don't clear the valve guide! Still no reply to my emails from Mr Fanelli. But we live in hope. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| I've just written to John James the editor of Totally T Type 2 as I understand he plans an article on the "Fanelli" cam. I've suggested he read this thread & have also passed on the concerns expressed by about a dozen of his other customers. I would like to hear off line from anybody else who has had the sort of problems we are experiencing. I would be particularly interested in confirming the taper on the titanium retainer he provides. I realize I'm not endearing myself to Mr Fanelli but as I see it this forum belongs to people like me & you who own & love the TD's & TF's we have temporary custody of, NOT to people who are just in it to make a buck flogging kit that doesn't work with no regard for the consequences. I do realize I'm stuck with the springs that I can't use & that I'll never get a satisfactory reply to my emails. All I can hope to acheive now is to alert others who may be thinking of the "Fanelli" cam to the pitfalls that await & to remind them of that old Roman expression, which is most certainly true in this case.. Caveat Emptor... let the buyer beware since he buys without recourse... Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Here is a photo of my 1st generation valve springs, installed 12 years ago, about 40,000 miles since then. They can move concentrically under the retainer. Peter was advised of this. Peter declined the improved spring kit. As you can see I do not have the improved spring kit in my own car, why should I, when they work so well! I spoke to his engine / cylinder head builder, Peter Fogarty, he has no problem installing these or my 2nd generation valve springs. He has the 2nd generation valve springs in his own car, & is so happy that he has sold about 5 roller cam kits for me since January! Len 
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| Len Fanelli |
| 2nd generation or improved valve springs installed. They are $ 210. extra, not $400. 
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| Len Fanelli |
Another photo.
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| Len Fanelli |
Another photo, of improved valve springs installed with lifters. 
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| Len Fanelli |
| I see my E mail address has been deleted. laf48@aol.com (LAF) Phone # 914 420 8699 If interested I will supply Peter Fogarty's address & phone #, he is not on line. I can supply a list of about 60 customers & or engine builders who have installed the 1st generation valve springs, and about 40 who have installed the improved valve springs. Len |
| Len Fanelli |
| Here is a copy of my E mail, which is sent to every customer, when asking for my $ 1,400.cam kit. I now have valve springs with retainers which fit better than my original valve springs. ( the original springs did not center on the OEM retainer, but could move concentrically about .100", under the retainer) these springs are 1.437" dia. OD & if using an alloy cover needed to have pockets ground on the inside for clearance. My new optional springs & retainers are smaller in diameter (about the same diameter as OEM springs) 1.320" dia. OD and can be used with an alloy valve cover with no modifications > > Springs," Super clean" wire, shot peened heat set, with alloy steel retainers, $ 210., or with titanium retainers $ 395. Len |
| Len Fanelli |
| Thanks for finally replying. I'm drafting a detailed response to your posts & also listing the "perceived" problems I & others have experienced. Unfortunately it's a long list & will take some time to compile. I should have it completed later tonight. Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| A couple of weeks ago my knowledge of valve trains could have been inscribed on the head of a pin with a jackhammer. It was only after I tried to install the springs that I saw I had two problems. The springs were clearly oversized & I needed to get up to speed on valve trains. In compiling the following I have sought advice from specialist M.G. engine rebuilders, mechanics including Peter Fogarty who is helping me install the springs using his spring compressor & valve spring tester, businesses who deal exclusively in valve train components such as Fabre, Comp Cams & Crow Cams & those who make automotive valve springs for sale worldwide, including Manley Springs, as well as researching the subject on the internet. At the outset it should be stated that the Chet Herbert cam has drawn nothing but praise from everybody who has contacted me that has managed to install it or have had it installed. The same unfortunately cannot be said for the Fanelli kit. In fact if you’ve purchased one you will know it is exactly the opposite! Len, the biggest single & almost universal complaint from your customers is your unwillingness or inability to effectively communicate. You continue to ignore your customer’ requests for information. If/when you do bother to finally respond, a client more often than not just gets a cryptic response by way of a jumbled set of meaningless numerals. When you were finally badgered into replying to my concerns & criticisms on this thread, really was the best you could come up with just 4695? Believe me that did not go unnoticed. For two people who had been following this thread & were considering purchasing your kit they’ve advised me that was the straw that broke the camels’ back! It was only when I posted on this thread that I’d written to John James, the editor of Totally T Type 2 that prompted any kind of real response from you. In many of the emails between us the question of installation instructions was raised. You promised on half a dozen occasions to include them along with a timing card. I have yet to have anyone confirm they have ever seen a set of detailed & comprehensive instructions. To my knowledge they have never been included in anyone’s kit in spite of your promises to do so. I don’t believe they even exist. Based on the tiny packets of information pried out of you piece by piece I’ve tried to compile a set for the benefit of others. Early on I thought perhaps I could get you started & send you what I’d compiled. Now, after the frustrating experience of dealing with you, I just pass it on to people who have contacted me and are obviously still struggling. Your continued assertion that the original spring seats (locators), retainers (caps), locks (keepers, collets) can be reused with your 1.440” kit springs is really annoying. We all know it isn’t so as I will clearly show here. Yet you continue to play the yes it is, no it isn’t game. It was only when I threatened to publish some of your emails that you were forced to retract your statement that you don’t advise anyone to grind the springs to make them fit. This is something else that caused expressions of surprise from customers & those in the know especially from the spring manufacturers & valve train specialists who described this as a “cowboy” approach. The original lower locator or spring seat can’t be used with the 1.440” kit springs because the spring is the same diameter as the seat & is also the same diameter as the circular machined recess in the head. (See the first pic in this thread. That the locator can’t be used is clearly evident). This pic shows a Howard’s cap I’d had fitted to my head. Although of a suitable diameter in that it covers the outer spring & has very little play, it can’t be used because it has a 7 degree taper. This very important question of the taper I will deal with a little later. Eliminating the locator creates three problems. The recommended installed pressure can’t be achieved with the kit springs & the old retainer, the springs will gradually eat into the head due in no small measure to the increased pressures demanded by the roller lifters & there is nothing to precisely locate the spring. The purpose of the original seat is not only to locate but also to protect the head. The fact that you have installed your retainers in the manner you’ve chosen to is utterly irrelevant except to confirm that you have little concern for your car & the fact that you continue to advise others to follow your lead, shows even less concern for your customers. Everybody I’ve spoken to who knows anything about the valve train is stunned that you would even consider installing, let alone selling, a spring that isn’t “snug” & be content to run it in your car or anyone else’s! Most if not all knowledgeable people believe anything over 1mm is way too much & state over 0.100” of slop is crazy, especially when you consider there is no lower locator! The kit spring & the original retainer do not sit well together for another important reason. The industry recommends a retainer must cover at least half the thickness of the outer coil. Have a look at the pics you’ve posted of the springs on your car & then tell me they comply. When I informed any of the experts that I’ve consulted with that you had recommended to at least one customer to fit a 7 degree retainer with the original locks, I was greeted with surprise & shock. One spring manufacturer simply refused to believe that anyone involved in selling valve train components could make such a recommendation, insisting that it must be a typo! Even when I sent him your email (passed on to me by that owner clearly showing you recommending the 7 degree Comp Cams retainer), he simply couldn’t accept it, and remains convinced it had to be an unintentional mistake. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary I have formed the opinion that you have absolutely no idea what the taper of the original T series locks & retainers might be. I now know it is certainly 10 degrees & MUST NOT BE MISMATCHED IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! I would recommend in the strongest possible terms that owners who have installed & are currently running Fanelli supplied retainers with the original locks, satisfy themselves that they are 10 DEGREES NOT 7!!! Whilst it’s true that you did mention to me to me in passing that most AM alloy rocker covers need to be ground because the oversize kit spring is fouled by the cover, this just further illustrates the need for detailed installation instructions, or better yet springs that DO fit!. Clearly the experience that Jim relates is proof of this. Obviously had the owner concerned been made aware of this he surely would have taken steps to prevent the springs knocking on the rocker cover? You also imply that Peter Fogarty is totally happy with the service you’ve provided & that he is somehow an “agent” for your kit. I’m reluctant to speak for Peter however he like everybody else has nothing but praise for the cam but his private opinion as to whether he shares many of the concerns that I’ve detailed above is a matter for Peter to express. As he doesn’t have a computer he has not read your comments. As such he is hardly in a position to refute them. Apart from myself there are 3 other people I know of here who are of a like mind. I should also mention that you’ve offered to refund my kit & I have declined, requesting that you just refund the springs. As I said earlier my research indicates the Chet Herbert cam is terrific. I have outlaid an additional $460 in shipping, transfer & bank charges thus far, so incurring additional expense shipping the items back to you, with no guarantee that you will honor your statement, makes even less sense than buying your kit in the first place. When I have purchased suitable springs, retainers & locators I’ll advise you of the cost, including shipping your springs back to you. I would ask then that you reimburse me for what I consider to be that avoidable & unnecessary outlay. Once the head is sorted I’ll then tackle the installation of the cam. If I experience any difficulty that I feel I should have been advised of, rest assured I will make my thoughts known. I also feel the real reason you’ve offered the refund is not because of any concern for me but simply to get me out of your hair. Sorry Len but I’m not for sale. I have managed to find locally made dual springs & matching locators that are due to arrive by express post today. These are 1.300” OD, have an installed pressure of 160lbs @ 1.800” & an open pressure of 280 lbs. I sent as much information as I could to the manufacturer & was fortunate in that he had an overrun of about 100 springs from a previous large order. As I’ve gone to considerable trouble to find these items & as there are only about a dozen sets left I won’t identify the source here. (If anybody is interested in purchasing a set & is a regular contributor to this forum please contact me offline & I will pass on the details so that you can deal with the manufacturer direct). In closing I would like to apologize to the readers & contributors to this forum for introducing an element of negativity into what is almost always a cheerful & positive platform. Apart from what I’ve expressed above I have no personal feelings for Len one way or the other or any interest in seeing his business either succeed or fail. My sole motivation was & is to share my experience so that others may avoid the pitfalls I’ve encountered if planning to travel down the same road. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Springs & locators have arrived. A really great price & quality work! Original retainer & new locator just require a few thou removed on a lathe to make them both a snug fit. Fitting the springs this morning & they will now both be secured @ the top & the bottom, just as God intended. Now a very happy camper! Thanks to all those who have offered their offline encouragement & support. Don't delay getting your springs as they are not an off the shelf item & there are now only a few sets left. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| I was just on the phone with the spring manufacturer who was pleasantly surprised at the orders that are now coming in. Unfortunately he thinks he will run out of locators, which were specially made for a number of worked Porsches, before he runs out of springs. He is happy to make another spring & locator run but there will obviously be a lead time involved. If anybody who has used the 1.440" kit springs with the original retainers & are now concerned & want to upgrade, just send me an email. I don't understand why Len couldn't be bothered to address this problem himself. Again I'm getting nothing out of this, nor do I want anything, except to say that if I can prevent XPAG engines dying unnecessarily that has to be a good thing & I do enjoy the warm fuzzy feeling I get from helping other members of the TD family! Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Peter - you have done a tremendous job in shepherding this through, and finding a viable solution. As someone who has a cam on the shelf waiting for things to resolve, I thank you! I've ordered a spring kit, as well. Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| The upper spring retainers Peter has described will not fit correctly, & may cause severe engine damage. Len Fanelli Abingdon Performance 914 420 8699 |
| Len Fanelli |
| Len - can you give us more specifics on how and why they don't fit - obviously we don't want to use anything that is incorrect. Best, Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| Fear not Tom, as everybody (except Len) knows the upper spring retainers are the originals!!! |
| P Hehir |
| Thanks for the public vote of confidence Tom. The new springs with the ORIGINAL upper retainer are now fitted. (Pic 1) I've included a few pics showing the process. The original retainer had a few thou removed from the diameter of the inner step. (Pic 2) The coverage on the new spring is superb! (Pic 3) Peter Fogarty did a great job on the lathe ensuring that the old retainer was a push fit into the new spring. (Pic 4) It's as snug as a bug in a rug. He liked it so much he plans to junk the alloy retainers he got from Len & give his originals the same treatment. The special Porsche locator required 2 shims (Pic 4 & Pic 6)) totalling 0.075" to achieve the desired installed pressure of 160lbs @ 1.785”. (Pic 7) It also had to have a few thou removed from the ID of the boss to ensure a really snug fit over the valve guide & it's a great fit into the inner spring. (Pic 8) All in all this is a fabulous result & I'm really stoked! The only special tool that is needed is a foot operated spring compressor, with the head on the bench. Peter uses one that he made himself. (Pic 9) The owner of the spring manufacturing plant is amazed @ the demand. When Peter Fogarty last spoke to him (he got the last set of locators) the owner kept saying "It's just gone mad! If anyone else requires new springs that CAN be used with the original retainer (which is really high quality steel & should be reused), the manufacturer still has about 20 sets (he actually had more than he thought) & if necessary is prepared to do another run. If there is enough interest I'll suggest that he increases the spring length & produce a purpose built locator just for T Types, that doesn't require shims or any modification. I plan to refit the head tomorrow. We are now moving forward again. Cheers Peter TD 5801 Pic 1 
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| P Hehir |
Pic 2
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| P Hehir |
Pic 3
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| P Hehir |
Pic 4
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| P Hehir |
Pic 5
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| P Hehir |
Pic 6
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| P Hehir |
Pic 7
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| P Hehir |
Pic 8
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| P Hehir |
Pic 9
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| P Hehir |
Pic showing Rimac spring tester in use confirming spring pressure of 160 lbs @ 1.785"
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| P Hehir |
| Len, we are all waiting with baited breath for an answer to Tom Lange's question. Please tell us how what I've done "may cause extensive engine damage"? You have the floor & all the world is your stage... Or am I not alone in thinking it's perhaps again your silence that speaks volumes! If I've done any damage at all it's only to your reputation, though you have contributed there in no small measure yourself. I'll email you the total for the new springs, locators, modification to the existing retainers & shipping so that you can refund that outlay. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Peter, that's enough!!! Please stop it. Bud |
| Bud Krueger |
| I'm with you Bud, time for the moderator to banish this thread. Yikes. George |
| George Butz |
| Ditto, the mean- spirited tone is out of character for this forum. JB |
| J K Barter |
| I wasn't going to comment since I did not want to get in-between a skunk pissing contest between two people.... I have installed Len's cam and I did purchase the improved spring kit supplied by Len as well. This was installed by a professional engine builder with 30+ years of experience. Before installing Len's cam, roller lifter conversions are nothing new to him and installed them on numerous big /small block muscle cars that had flat tappet lifters to increase performance and reliability. He also has a great reputation and surrounding car dealers who need engine or head work on today's modern cars, they send those projects to him. I have been watching this thread closely and when I saw Steve last I asked him about it. Steve is very particular to what he does. Very anal and he balanced my engine to a tenth of a gram. If there were any issues when it came assembling the head, he would have made it known to me right away since he knows my engine for the TF is not "just another engine build" but a family heirloom that goes back 56 years. Steve only needed one help with something and needed to know the lash to set the pushrods if my memory serves me correctly. He called Len and it was done. I have posted a video of my car's start up. 40lbs of oil PSI with 30 wt oil which is per the WSM and 25 at idle at idle at normal operating temperature also per the WSM. I wish I could give a "ride report" but I am not even started with dealing with the tub.... stay tuned next year?? This will be my only post to this thread and I hope there is a amicable and professional resolution to the parties involved. Frank |
| Frank Cronin |
| Bud, Thank you for speaking out. Jud |
| J K Chapin |
This thread was discussed between 04/04/2014 and 17/04/2014
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