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MG TD TF 1500 - Floorboard Template corrections/questions

I'm in the midst of preparing the "floorboard system" for my 1951 MGTD. I'm relying heavily on Roy Challberg's excellent floorboard templates and Lonnie Cook's detailed fastener guide on Bud Krueger's talk.info website.

Firstly, thanks guys for making this available. I'd be pretty lost without it, since the original floorboards are long gone.

As I've hassled my way through this, I've run across a few things that aren't clear to me, and perhaps are errors.

First, a question. Lonnie's fastener study doesn't address the passenger footrest on the TD. What is used to hold the footrest to the wooden floorboard? Wood screws with finishers? T-nuts and bolts?

Now to Roy's template:

On Sheet 6 it is stated that "Holes C and D take tee nuts...to accommodate the bolts that hold the floorboards down." Seems that these tee nuts should be used to hold the gearbox cover down, not the floorboards, since they are installed in the floorboard, correct?

And Lonnie's fastener analysis:

Lonnie based his study on his TF, so there may be some differences with the TD. Perhaps the most glaring one is the use of pointed Phillips head screws for the floor board bolts. I've got double handfuls of flat-bottomed slotted head screws that came from two different TD's. Is it possible that TD's used slotted screws instead of the Phillips? Perhaps that would explain why all the reproductions available are flat-bottomed slotted head? What say you, TD owners? In looking through the archives I found where Lonnie questioned this, as well, but I didn't see an answer.

I think Lonnie's Floorboard Washer (FB Wash) count may be off. He shows a total of 31. That's at least 2 more than necessary since 8L and 8R in his list are hex bolts, which should use a flat washer, not a dished one. I'm also wondering whether it is appropriate to use a FB Wash for the bolts that fit on top of the gearbox (1L,1R,11R,11F). Frankly, I'm not sure what would be used, assuming a flat head screw is correct. However, it would explain why the Moss floorboard kit includes only 25 FB Wash. It also doesn't seem right that a FB Wash is the right washer to use on top of metal rather than wood.

Thanks again for offering this information. Please take these questions in the spirit they are offered-- I'm not trying to nit pic just to find fault with some really good work, just trying to get it right for me and any others that might have similar questions.


David Littlefield

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_carpet.htm
Christopher Couper

Dave wrote:

Now to Roy's template:

On Sheet 6 it is stated that "Holes C and D take tee nuts...to accommodate the bolts that hold the floorboards down." Seems that these tee nuts should be used to hold the gearbox cover down, not the floorboards, since they are installed in the floorboard, correct?

I believe you're right Dave, the T nuts are used to hold down the tranny cover. Hopefully Lonnie can answer your other questions.

Cheers,
Roy
Roy Challberg

Phillips head fasteners were gradually introduced during TD and TF production, so TD's will have slotted in places where TF's have Phillips. Early TF's will have slotted hinge screws where later TF's will have Phillips.

Matthew.
M Magilton

I strongly advise you take ANY template and think of it as a series of suggestions, not as absolute fact. Every car is a little different. I used Mr. Challberg's great template with great success, but made sure to adapt them to my car. I first made cardboard templates to test with, and found that the curve on both outer edges deviated by a considerable and different amount for my car. I used the cardboard, once adjusted, to cut the plywood panels, and marked them for drilling but did NOT drill holes.
Then I installed the panels in the car and used an artist paintbrush to locate the exact hole positions from underneath, pushing up through each captive nut hole to mark the plywood.
Once I did that, I could see that there were once again significant variations in the hole placements on my car, versus the template.
EVERY car is different. Each captive nut floats, and is thus not a truly fixed mark. You will find significant variations when you do your install, I am sure of that!
Mr. Challberg's templates are a wonderful aid that many including myself have used with great success - but if you think of them as absolute fact, you may be disappointed. As they said in the silly Pirates of the Carribean movies, think of them "more like guidelines" than rules...
Geoffrey M Baker

Thanks, all.

FWIW, I was able to run a 1/4" 26 TPI BSF tap through a couple of new SAE 1/4" T-nuts so I could use the original size fasteners without having to track down BSF T-nuts. Worked really well.

Geoffrey, I had pretty much the same experience, though I had my father make up the boards. He had the patterns but not the car. When I got them I found I had to do some fettling with a jig saw and a belt sander. Nothing too dramatic, but it did require repainting those areas. Mostly I found that I had to add some curve to the back section of the boards to follow the tie bar.

I marked the holes from below as you did, only I used a Q tip and white paint. I also drilled the holes slightly oversized for the bolts so I would have more wiggle room when trying to line everything up.
David Littlefield

I too used that template. I made a practice set out of Masonite first. There were several places that needed correction, but it was a great start!
Ed
efh Haskell

David -

Thanks for double checking our floorboard and fastener information. I'll update my fastener file (someday!)

=======

> Screws for Footrest:

I did not include the screws that hold the passenger footrest because they are a carpet item and not a floorboard item. I believe that I used 1/2" round head screws, probably #6 to secure the footrest to the floorboards. See Chris Couper's excellant instructions below. He included the link previously in this thread.

"Once the carpet has been trimmed you may decide which method you want to use to secure the footrest, original or modified. With the original installation the footrest bottom is screwed down on top of the passenger carpet. Three black round headed screws will slightly show at the base of the footrest. You will fold the bottom of the carpet under the footrest and then drive the screws into the floorboard securing the footrest and front of the passenger carpet. The shown edge will be nicely rolled over but you will notice the black screws if you look closely.

"The optional technique that will allow for the passenger carpet to be removed with snaps is to secure the footrest to the floor first. Do not fold the footrest carpet over the bottom lip but rather let it lay onto the floorboard. Then lay the front edge of the passenger carpet over the footrest lip hiding the screws and secure it just behind the footrest with two hidden Veltex snaps."

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> Pointed Tips / Slotted vs Phillips Heads

A TD-guy will have to tell you about the tips and heads used on TDs. As Matthew noted, manufacturers were changing from slotted to other screw heads mid-century. e.g. Clutch Head screws on General Motors cars. My TF was built 23-Sep-1954.

At this point, I was just glad to get replacement BSF screws for the fittings for my TF floorboards. Slotted head flat tip BSF were all that I could find. I reused as many of the pointed tip Phillips head screws that I could.

=======

> Floorboard Washer Count

OOPS! Right you are. Flat steel washers go under hex head machine screws #8L and #8R on my floorboard fastener diagram. Don't remember if I used 1/4" X 1/2" X .072 plain washers #WAP0408 from FTFU, standard zink or SS 1/4" washers from the hardware store, or maybe square profile split washers (?)

I'll change the fastener list the next time that I revise the file. I also need to tweak the fasteners around the pedal box.

=======

> Floorboard Washers on the Gearbox Cover

Floorboard washers were used under all of the screws in the gearbox cover and the driveshaft tunnel, including the three that attach the tunnel to the heal plate, on my TF. The covers had probably been removed and replaced sometime in the car's history, but I feel that the washers were replaced in the same location from which they were removed.

I questioned their use on the metal covers also. My conclusion was that flat washers would need to be tapered to allow the screw head to sit flush with the top and not pull through the washer. Floorboard washers were a good solution and were already in the factory parts bin. Just my opinion. Moss may have had a different opinion or may have developed their count from a more pristine car than mine. Perhaps other TD/TF owners on the forum with unmolested cars can give better information.

=======

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Thanks loads, Lonnie, for responding so thoroughly.

Part of my problem on the FB Wash is, as far as I can tell, they are not available as a separate part and only in kits. So the shortage in the Moss kit leaves me wanting 4 if I use them on the gearbox cover. I've got exactly 1 original one left (not sure how that happened, considering I've got 1 1/2 sets of the original screws/nuts). However, I'm just going to use a few SS finishing washers I found at the hardware store.

Paint is drying on the changes I made to the floorboards and I think it will all go into the car this weekend.

Thanks again to all who responded.
David Littlefield

David -

Doug Pelton still lists individual floorboard washers on his website.
https://fromtheframeup.com/uploads/Cat_37_WA.pdf
From the Frame Up
Category: 37 - Washers
Item # WAC0414
Item: 1/4"x7/8"cupwasher
Description / Application: Floorboards and gearbox cover

Looks like Abingdon Spares no longer lists floorboard washers as separate items on the website. You might call Martin Cooke, the new owner of Abingdon Spares, to confirm. The part number is 41 073.

I purchased floorboard washers from both suppliers. They were pretty much identical, and cost the same at $0.95 each.

Suppliers and part numbers for all floorboard fasteners are listed in my floorboard fastener PDF.

Related subjects:

> Not sure what the general consensis is regarding installing the interior panels first or installing the floorboards first. Maybe a combination of both. The main thing is that the interior panels should not trap the floorboards so that the floorboards cannot be removed. Mine were installed before I bought my car. I trimmed my new floorboards to fit around the interior panels. (I have removed my carpet and floorboards twice since I installed them last year.)

> Hold the floorboards securely in place as you mark the locations of holes. Don't let them shift. A willing wife sitting on them is a good choice, but it will probably cost you dinner and a movie.

> The lip of the driveshaft tunnel sits under the floorboards. The lip of the gearbox cover sits on top of the floorboards.

> Follow Chris Couper's instructions when you install the carpet. Perfect!
http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_carpet.htm

Lonnie
TF7211

LM Cook

LOL, I found C-clamps to be much cheaper than having the wife sit on the floorboards. Not to mention the fact that she resents being used as "dead weight." Don't ask me how I know...
David Littlefield

This thread was discussed between 21/02/2016 and 23/02/2016

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