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MG TD TF 1500 - Front Seal

Does anyone have a good part number for the better two lip Volvo seal? Supplier?

Thanks,
Mort
Mort 50 TD (Mobius)

Mort
gates pn ks 13945.national # 1172, fel pro tcs45725. it fits better
than a moss seal, & has a double lip.
Start checking auto parts store, common seal.
-David
D. Sander

How exactly is this installed in the xpeg block?
Alex Waugh

In place of the felt seal, with a little RTV.
-David
D. Sander

You have to remove the timing chain cover and sump Alex. Place the seal in the timing cover with some RTV and install it and the offer up the sump also with some RTV.

Someone posted here a long while back of having the openings cut out (machined) to create a perfect press fit without the removal of either part.
MG LaVerne

"Someone posted here a long while back of having the openings cut out (machined) to create a perfect press fit without the removal of either part.
"

If someone knows of this posting it would be interesting to read.

Mort
Mort 50 TD (Mobius)

Alex installs the same as a Moss seal, it is thinner, & fits the u shaped groove better.
Len
Len Fanelli

Someone developed a cutter that caused the seal area to become circular thereby fitting the shape of the modern seal. This cutter did the combined sump and timing cover. Let me start doing some archive diving. Bud
Bud Krueger

Found it. See reactivated thread about little hole with a cotter pin. Tool was from Huib. Gordan Lawson was also knowledgeable. Bud
Bud Krueger

I had a cutter made to do this:



Gene Gillam

Why cut???????
-David
D. Sander

Gene,
Do you have a photo of the working end of the cutter?
Do you use a keeper to hold the seal in place or is a press fit enough to hold it?
What's the rental fee?
Mort
Mort 50 TD (Mobius)

I've always considered machining this area, but it seems to me you would need to build it up with something first, since the hole is already larger than the seals most commonly used. Are you using a larger seal for this after machining, or did you build the area up first?

I installed the Moss seal with RTV around it, and was VERY careful to line up the seal so that it sits straight and centered. The result is zero leaks and I am very happy. However, it was tricky enough that I don't think every installation will go as perfectly, so a better option like machining would not be a bad idea. It would also allow the sump to be removed without messing up the seal installation.
Steve S

I am having a hard time wrapping my head around machining the sump and timing cover by cutting out the outer lip simply for the convenience of pressing in a modern seal without removing the pan and the timing cover.
1. The double lip Volvo camshaft seal fits in the slot nicely with a little RTV and has proven to be an effective seal. This method is easily reversible should anyone want to revert back to the rope seal and have the original leak again.
2. Cutting the outer retaining lip is not a reversible modification, and changes the timing cover and the oil pan forever.
3. I can't understand how there is any provision to make a minor adjustment to center the new seal.
4. This modification would be visible, calling attention to an unoriginal engine modification. I just don't get it.
-David.
D. Sander

Agreed, I can understand machining the inner part where the seal resides, but not removing the whole lip. Seems there is little need to ever replace that seal before an engine rebuild is necessary anyway.
Steve S

It's been my impression that the cutting is done behind the retaining lip. The theory as presented some time ago was to provide a uniformly circular volume centered upon the crankshaft axis The seal would then reside in this space. But, I've been known to be wrong. Bud
Bud Krueger

David, Due to a broken crank and bell mouthing of the first main journal, the resulting line boring has my crank a lot visually off center (higher) in the sump/timing cover hole. I had to remove metal from the timing cover circumference or the engine would lock. This also results in too big clearance from the bottom rope and it always leaks. No chance of using the modern type seal. The cutter will be perfectly centered on the crank, resulting in a perfectly round and centered hole (yes I know I may have to weld up the pan due to the gap). Should the seal need to be changed it is quick and easy like on a modern car. Huge advantage, dropping and re-installing the sump is second only in misery to the pedal box in misery to me. Pretty sure this was done on the very last X-series engines, no way you can see it with the crank pulley in place either. George
George Butz

You don't cut all the way through the inner lip, you simply remove the outer lip and any material where the rope seal goes that would keep your lip seal from seating. The lip seal will be a press fit into the hole and will be centered perfectly around your pulley (assuming your pulley is smooth and round).

I will loan it to anyone who needs it and is willing to pay the shipping (fits into a small USPS flat rate box). Contact me off list.

I used a 35X50X8mm viton seal (not what Moss supplies) that I bought off the internet. From Colonial Seal, the company I bought the seal from: "The recommended tolerance between the ID of the seal and the shaft is 0.00mm to +0.16mm. For a 35mm ID on a seal, your shaft should be 35.00mm to 35.16mm." so make sure your pulley is sized right. Mine wasn't and I had to have it cut down - but I also had it sleeved in stainless at the same time.

Gene Gillam

Gene, will the cutter fit inside the outer lip? In other words, to machine a groove for the seal without removing the outer lip? That's how I want to do mine. Also, is it adjustable or does it just cut from the outside in, as it slides toward the engine?
Steve Simmons

I'll have the NAPA part number tomorrow. Bud
Bud Krueger

Steve,

It cuts from outside in, riding on the crank so the seal can center on it and yes, removes the outer lip from the oil pan and the timing chain cover. Those pieces are seldom in perfect alignment when you start...see how much I had to remove from the oil pan before I ever even started cutting into the timing chain cover. This is a very slow, manual process, btw.

Gene

Gene Gillam

Gene,
This looks like a very sound way to update our engine sealing. Do you think there is a need to put 2 dowel pins in the front cover to make sure it lines up the same in the future? There has been some discussion about moving the cover to line things up, indicating that there was a little extra clearance on the cover bolt holes. Has anyone noted this?
cj schmit

cj,

Doweling the cover is a great idea - wish I'd done it! And yes, you can loosen the bolts to get some movement if you need it before whatever gasket compound sets up.

Gene
Gene Gillam

That was my other thought. Once you've machined the mating surface, it wouldn't be a bad idea to dowel the timing cover. But, there may still be some side to side slop in the oil pan so then you have to dowel that as well, unless you let the seal itself to locate the pan. Starts to become a big job.
Steve S

I've heard from Huib. Here's what he has to say. And, the image(s) show that it definitely removes the entire front (outer) wall of the cover and sump. Bud

Hello Bud,
Yes, everything is fine overhere and actually we are extremely happy since these days we got our third grandchild.
I used that tool and it worked well. Of course one needs to do it pretty carefully and sensitive since the cutter's forward movement is only handcontrolled. The material to be cut is aluminum, so pretty soft and easy to cut.
The tool cuts the space for the seal and it is done with sump, its gasket (very important because this adds thickness) and timingchaincover in place.
May be the picture attached gives some clarity.
The tool also needs some patience in the adjustment procedure, it is a bit trial and error.
About a year ago that friend gave me his drawing and i had another MG friend with a lathe who made me one. Since than this tool is travelling around in my area amongst MG friends.
Some things learned:
- be careful in removing the cutted material: you don't want this to get inside into the oil. A vacuumcleaner with a small hose attached to sug the chips out
- another friend wanted to take the pan off after the cutting for cleaning and he assured that the gasket had the correct thickness
Let me know if you need more info.
Best regards, Huib


Bud Krueger

The gasket thickness is certainly a concern. This makes me think that the way to do this is to dowel and machine the timing cover only, to ensure that the seal is perfectly centered over the crank. Then machine the oil pan slightly oversize and use a thin smear of RTV or similar to make up the gap. This would allow for any slop in the oil pan fitment or variation of gasket material.
Steve Simmons

FYI, the NAPA number is 13945, same as the Gates number. Bud
Bud Krueger

The decision to install a new front seal may have just saved my engine. Crawled under Lazarus yesterday to start the sump removal process. I got a big surprise when I removed the clutch lever from the fulcrum - the fulcrum was loose!!! This means that inside of the sump there is the potential for a loose nut and lockwasher to ,be floating around amidst the throws of the crankshaft. I recall, when rebuilding the engine, that I swapped the unused right-side fulcrum for the used left-side one. Aha! just looked an image of the clean sump and I see that the fulcrum is secured by a castle nut with cotter pin. It'll be interesting to see what I find when I get it off. Bud

Bud Krueger

Good catch Bud. You better have some words with the guy who put it together. ;))
As long as you are replacing the seal have you considered milling out the front for a press in seal? Gene was nice enough to send me his tool for doing this.
I will hold it until someone else needs it and then I will send it to him/her. Then they can send it forward to the next user. It will be on the shelf and available along with your ridge reamer.
Mort
Mort 50 TD (Mobius)

Thanks for the offer, Mort, but I think I share the view of David Sander. The external cutting doesn't give me a warm feeling. I'm not keen on exposing the seal to the grunge of the outside world. I like having it enclosed by the outside of the cover and sump. I'm glad that Huib sent that image of the installed seal. Bud
Bud Krueger

Bud and I are in 100% agreement on this one. I would caution anyone considering this modification to think long and hard before committing to it.
I would first ask why one would consider this modification in the first place.
-is it to upgrade to a modern seal and do away with the leaks?
If so, then I would simply install the Volvo double lip cam seal. This seal does the trick with a little RTV. The existing design holds the seal well, and allows the seal to be perfectly centered on the crank shaft pully with a total 100% leak proof seal against the oil pan and the timing cover.
I would imagine it would be virtually impossable for a new seal with the cut modification to seal correctly. It would be virtually impossable to mantain a perfect circle, as the oil pan and or the timing cover could move ever so slightly after the machining. Any change in torque to the oil pan bolts woould change the circle, and result in leaks.
-would this modification be made to be able to easily replace the front seal?
If so, I would ask how often one would plan on replacing the front seal. This seal should list the life of the engine. In the unlikely event you would have to replace the front seal, it is not a big job to drop the pan and pull the timing cover.
The cutting leaves more opportunity for leaks and is not reversible. The Volvo cam seal is an easy, effective and reversible upgrade.
Just my $.02
-David
D. Sander

David,

How can you possibly ensure that the seal is "perfectly centered" on the crank pulley using the Moss seal method? There's no way to center it on the crank shaft because the seal doesn't seal on the crank but on the pulley. Since the openings in the timing belt cover and the oil pan are normally a bit offcenter then trying to RTV a seal in place without being able to center it on the pulley is a impossible. While it may not leak for a while, it's going to wear unevenly and eventually require replacement necessitating the removal of the cover and pan...not an easy job.

(Also simply my opinion - smile - and we know everyone has one).

Gene
Gene Gillam

Gene,
When I install the seal (the Volvo cam seal, not the Moss seal) I place the crank pully on and rotate it before the RTV cures. The seal will slide to center itself on the crank pully. The RTV dries, "gluing" the seal in place. No leaks.
-David.
D. Sander

I agree with David Sander, also after line boring the main bearing bores in the block, to bring the bearing clearance down to .001" or less, & hand fitting the oil thrower, I have NO oil leaks.
However it took a few removal & replacements of the sump to get from a 1" size oil leak down to ZERO.
Len Fanelli

I've also used the Moss seal (no machining) and installed it in the same way as David. I install the pulley immediately, while the RTV is still fluid. You also need to pay attention to the vertical alignment. The result for me was zero leaks at the front of the engine. So it can be done. The rear however, is another story...
Steve S

Hmmm .... I'm still thinking......
Mort 50 TD (Mobius)

I love this BBS.
Mort 50 TD (Mobius)

Found the loose fulcrum cause. It turns out that some dummy named Bud put a flat washer under the fulcrum castle nut instead of a lock washer. At least the cotter pin kept the nut from coming off in the crankcase. Bud

Bud Krueger

This thread was discussed between 28/01/2014 and 06/02/2014

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