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MG TD TF 1500 - Front Wheel Squeak, TF (VIDEO)

Can you tell me the source and the fix of a "dry" squeak that developed in the left front wheel of my '55 TF-1500 last week?

It does not seem to squeak with each wheel revolution. I hear it once or twice a second at 2000 RPM in 4th gear. With a 4.875:1 rear gear, that's about one squeak every three turns of the wheel.

HISTORY -
> I removed the brake drum in April to shim the masks on the wheel cylinders to push the shoes closer to the drums. I looked at the bearings. They seemed to have grease on them. I worked in a little Lucas Red "N" Tacky #2 Multi Purpose EP Grease onto the bearings. I don't know anything about front bearings, so I wouldn't have been able to spot a potential problem.

> I adjusted the brakes a couple of weeks ago. I can hear what seems to be a slight brush of the shoes to the drum. Always have. Same on both front wheels. Wheels spin freely.

> I also lubed the chassis at the same time. No other changes.

Here is a Photobucket video with sound of the squeak ...
http://vid149.photobucket.com/albums/s50/lonnieinorlando/MG/Suspension/WheelSqueak.mp4

Just in case the long web address doesn't work, here is the "tinyurl" address of the video ...
http://tinyurl.com/qbclpat

++ What do you think it is?
++ Is it terminal?
++ Do you think that I can fix the problem by this Friday, 12/12? Saturday is the first anniversary of my ownership of the car and also our MG club's Christmas party. I'll drive about 60 miles on Saturday.

Thanks for your help and advice on this problem and on other questions over the last twelve months. I couldn't have done it without you.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lonnie -
"What do you think it is?"
Something to do with the steering of the wheel.

"Is it terminal?"
Probably not.

"Do you think that I can fix the problem by this Friday,..."
Maybe, but mostly maybe not.

"...12/12? Saturday is the first anniversary of my ownership of the car and also our MG club's Christmas party. I'll drive about 60 miles on Saturday."
By then you may have a better idea of where it is, or the squeak may well go away by itself.

Go to the party and enjoy the drive and the good time and good company and don't worry too much about the squeak. Cheers - Dave

D W DuBois

Hi Lonnie,

Check for rubbing brake back plate to drum. It could be the bearing play combined with wheel speed and wheel wobble Just an idea.

Gerard
Gerard Hengeveld

Lonnie,

After shimming the wheel cylinders, did you recenter the brake shoes or skim the linings? If not, remember that by shimming the cylinder masks, the linings are no longer concentric with the drum. Some rubbing can and likely will occur, possibly resulting in a squeak.
Lew Palmer

Thanks guys. Here is some more info and clarification -

Dave - Don't think the squeak is going to go away. It's gotten louder over the past couple of days. The same dry metal-to-metal sound at speed as on the video. I don't think that I hear it below about 10mph. But I could hear it today at 55mph over the wind noise with the top down.

Gerald - I tried to rock the wheels top/bottom and side-to-side. No play side-to-side. Maybe a couple of millimeters top-to-bottom. I'll jack up again and look at the backing plate. The squeak does not occur on each revolution of the wheel like it would if something is rubbing the wheel or drum. Only about every third rev. You can see and hear the frequency on the video. The sound is the same going straight ahead or doing "Esses". Wouldn't be surprised if it is the result of a combination of problems.

Lew - Yes, I did center the shoes. I did not skim the drums. That's the reason that I had to add the shims ... drums turned too many times. I knew that the shoes would no longer be concentric with the drums after I shimmed the masks. The car probably has about 600 miles on it since I shimmed the masks in April. No unusual noise until a few days ago. The light scuff that I hear is not enough to generate a squeak. As noted above, the squeak does not occur every wheel rev; appears to occur about every third rev.

I'm confident that brain-storming like this and my investigation of each will find the source of the squeak.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lonnie
Possibly a dry bearing and if so I bet it would be the inner bearing. They don't always squeak at each revolution for the defective ball (if that is what it is)may only squeak when it becomes metal on metal or part thereof.

John
John Walton

I think I would pull the drum to see if there is something obvious, especially in view of a planned 60 mile drive. Maybe something amiss with your shim welding job? Better in the garage rather than on the road.
Jim Merz

I hope to borrow a wheel puller tomorrow so that I can look inside the drum.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lew,
IMHO, Shimming the masks isn’t going to make the shoes non concentric to the drum. Shimming is used to make up for the wear of the components and bring the shoes into an adjustable range of the adjusters.
.
Lonnie,
What did you use to pull the bearings last April??
I doubt if the noise is coming from a bearing,, I believe that would result in a more rotation squeek,,
.
It is possible that you might have a broken return spring in there, and a piece of it is rubbing against the drum !! We had that happen once,,,

Steve
Steve Wincze

Steve -

I pulled the drum with a three jaw wheel puller last April (actually March). I believe that I only speared some grease on the exposed bearings. Don't remember since it was a new experience to me.

How difficult is it to remove and replace the bearings? Tips? I didn't learn much from the WSM.

I'll know more about loose brake springs etc. when I pull the drum this week.

RE: Concentric shoe/drum. I believe that you are right. I may have been thinking about new shoes having a tighter radius than an old over-turned drum.

Thanks for your addition to my list of possible problems to check. I'll post updates when I can see inside.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Also make sure you apply a small smear of white grease (lithium) to the backing plate pads at the points where the shoes slide against it. Also put a small smear on the places where the tips of the shoes contact the wheel cylinders and on the base of the adjuster where it slides against the cylinder piston cap.
Kevin McLemore

Lonnie,
The inner bearings usually come off with the drum,and can be driven off with a drift or sutable size socket, ocassionally they stay on the spindle,, go to Bud's T Talk site for one solution if it stays on the spindle,
.

http://www.ttalk.info/WheelBearingPuller.html

Steve
Steve Wincze

HHuumm,,, Just thought of another possibility,, when you take off the drum, per the WSM, you must reset the inner bearing in the drum befor the drum is "offered up" to the spindle again,, this insures that it is in it's proper location with the spacer between the bearings,,,
Could this be a possible cause of the squeek???

Steve
Steve Wincze

If the inner bearing stayed in place when the drum was removed the seal will not be in the correct place when the drum is replaced.Also when the drum is replaced the bearing will have been subjected to abnormal axial loading which could damage it. When bearings are damaged any noise is a function of the rotation of the cage AND the outer and can produce variable timing of the noise.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

A good comment Ray and perhaps Lonnie should investigate this area no doubt amongst other observations.
John
John Walton

Thanks guys,

Here's a long update.

Although I borrowed a wheel puller, I didn't need to use it. Both front drums came off with taps of a rubber mallet. I pulled both drums so that I can compare the two as I proceed. I'm a newbee to this stuff.

1) The nut on the left steering knuckle was not tight. I could move it with my fingers. The cotter pin retained it in the castles on the nut. This is the wheel with the squeak. The wheel was not loose. I could not visually wiggle the wheel. I don't remember if I could not tighten the nut to the next castle to insert the cotter pin when I installed it in March/April.

2) The inner hub bearing remained on both front axles. Steve and Ray - thanks for pointing out that I must remove the inner bearing from the axle before reinstalling the drum as directed in Sec K-12 (page K-8) of the WSM. I don't remember if I did so when I removed the drums last March/April. I'll borrow a bearing puller from a club member and/or follow Steve's tip to remove the inner hub bearing.

3) I visually inspected and rotated the outer part of the inner hub bearings on both axles, but did nothing else. Both perform and appear the same. I'll know more when I remove them before reinstalling the drums.

4) I saw a little bit of sparkling pixy dust on the base plate of the left brake (the noisy wheel). Not much. I did not see any places that could have generated the pixy dust. Rivets were well below the surface of the shoes, so that was not a source. No telling how long it has been there. There was nothing on the base plate of the right brake.

5) All brake shoe edges and all return springs looked like they were in place and none had evidence of rubbing the drum.

6) There was no evidence of the drums rubbing the backing plates.

7) All bearings - inner hub and outer hub - had fresh-looking grease. No dry spots.

8) I cleaned the surface grease off of the outer hub bearing of the left drum (the squeaky wheel) without removing if from the drum. I marked one of the balls. And I marked the large outer part and the small inner part of the bearing that were in line with the marked ball. (I know that I am using the wrong terms.) Then I rotated the inner part of the bearing. As expected, the balls rotated slower than the inner part of the bearing. I counted the number of rotations of the inner part that was needed for the marked ball to return to the starting position. It took about two and two-thirds rotations. That is about the same number of revolutions of the wheel between squeaks. Kinda makes me feel that the squeak is related to the outer hub bearing. (?)

9) The large outer part of the outer hub bearing on the right drum (the wheel that doesn't squeak) can be smoothly rotated inside the drum with a little effort - no play between the two. I could easily drift the bearing assembly out of the drum if I wanted to.

10) The large outer part of the outer hub bearing on the left drum (the squeaky wheel) is tight to the drum. I lightly tapped the outer part of the bearing from the inside of the drum at the two channels with a drift. The bearing assembly did not move. I did not try again.

> Any tips on removing the outer hub bearing from the left drum? Should I just leave it in place, clean it, then work new grease into it? Probably won't be able to inspect it closely, but I don't know if I could recognize a problem if I saw it.

Thanks for your continuing help, observations, and suggestions.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lonnie,
Do you have a large socket that will fit over the bearing? You can then tap on it and it will put relatively even force all around the complete bearing,,
.
Ref point No 9,,,, you were able to rotate the large part of the bearing inside the drum?? That should be a tight fit, and you shouldn't be able to rotate it,,,

Steve
Steve Wincze

RE: point #9 -- Yes, I can slide the outer hub bearing in the right drum with my finger. The inside of the hub is well greased, so it doesn't bind. This is the wheel that DOESN'T make noise.

I used a drift in the channels in the left drum to unstick the outer hub bearing. It fit's tightly and must be tapped with a drift to move.

I can't remove either outer hub bearing from the drums. Both of them stop solidly at the edge of the drum. No, I don't have a socket large enough to use to tap them out of the drum.
=>> Any suggestions?
=>> If the outer bearings are this hard to remove at the edge of the drum, how hard is it to get them back in?

I'll borrow a bearing puller today to remove the inner hub bearings.

I found part numbers for the bearings from various manufacturers in the archives.
=>> If I need to replace, do you recommend Moss or a local supplier?

Still don't know if the bearings are the cause of the noise in my original post.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

It looks as though a DPO has peened down the rim to make the bearings tight. If you keep on drifting the bearing will come out. If you are just tootling round town then Locktite or similar will set the bearing or you could get a machine shop to internally knurl them. I am hoping knurling is an international word and not just UK. If you are going to drive enthusiastically you will need new drums.
Look for somebody converting to wires who will have them to spare.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

Lonnie,
When you get the bearing puller and pull off the inner bearings from the spindles it will most likely damage the oil seals there are not a lot of room behind the bearing to get the jaws in. I would recommend you order two oil seals 120-600 $3.35 OIL SEAL, as every time I have removed my hubs they needed replacing.
When you come to torque the nut back up, having reassembled the hubs. If you cannot get the split pin in a hole at 40to70 ft./lbs.
First try the other washer the goes under the nut from the other side. If that doesn't fix it, get hold of some steel shims - 3 thou and 5 thou and try placing either or [under the washer]to get the hole and castellation’s to line up. You definitely want these nuts tight to the drum and locked with the split pin.

Rod
Rod Jones

Can't you swap the right and left side drums from one side of the front to the other and see if the squeak travels with them? That would let you know whether it's the inner or the outer bearing.
Gene Gillam

Here's the update du jour ...

I was able to remove the outer hub bearings from both hub/drums. Both seem to have worn spots that do not spin smoothly. The outer and inner bearings are R&M, a company that has been out of business for years. Perhaps they are the original bearings that were installed when the car was built in 1954??

I will remove the inner bearings tomorrow. I have a bearing puller. It may destroy the inner bearings and seals. But that's OK because I ordered new inner and outer bearings, seals, and oil seal spacers for both wheels from Moss today. Should arrive by Friday. Hope to install and drive to the club Christmas party on Saturday.

I have a bad wheel cylinder on the "quiet" wheel, so I want to replace while the drum is off. Moss is out of stock, so I will try to rebuild with a Moss rebuild kit. That's going to take up time that I need to complete the reassembly of the bearings. I bought extra seals in case I need to remove the drum again.

> Ray - Don't do much "enthusiastic driving". That's a great description! I always have my eye open for more drums.

> Rod - Thanks for your tip to get the castle nuts tight.

> Gene - Good idea, except I have already removed the outer hub bearings so I can't try switching the drums to see if the noise stops. And I won't do it after I install the new bearings because I'm afraid that I will damage the seal.

Stay tuned for further updates.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lonnie,
The machining shims are usually available at a well stocked hardware store,,(My ACE store has them),They are very handy to have as Rod suggested....I keep some extras on my spare axle,,,

Steve
Steve Wincze

Larry, Google Ransome and Marles Ball Bearings, still in business according to web site. I believe all of the original axle/tranny bearings were made by them. For the loose in drum outer bearings- Ray has a great idea about knurling (yes Ray, same term here in the states) if you could find a shop to do that. I also agree some of the red Locktite "stud and bearing" would work fine unless you are going to race or something. If you use that, make sure you remove all grease/oil off of the drum seating area and the outer part of the race, and do not get the Locktite into the bearing (I have proven that it will lock and ruin the ball bearing!). George
George Butz

Ray is right about knurling - it will make loose bearings fit more tightly in housings. As an alternative, the proper Loctite products to use would be #620 or #638 - both are specifically made for retaining bearings in housings. I would not use simple Loctite red or blue - they are made for threaded components.
Kevin McLemore

Lonnie

I believe Loctite 640 is the product that will resolve your loose bearing issues, here is the link to its specs;

http://www.henkelna.com/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797924524033

I have used this product extensively for loose bearings in electric motors and reduction gear boxes. It has resolved a loose bearing on a half shaft in my MG rear end recently.
G Evans

Thanks for the LockTite info. Sounds like that is the way for me to go, since I drive like a sissy.

I use blue LockTite, but have no experience with the indelible stuff.

=> How much time can I spend installing the bearing before the LockTite sets up?
=> How do I remove it if I have to start over?

George - I did a fast Google search yesterday when I read the R&M brand name on my bearings. Looks like the company merged with other companies after 1969. It's interesting to follow the history of the builders and suppliers of parts for our MGs.

http://www.hendersonbearings.com/rm-bearings.php
"The Ransome & Marles Bearing company started manufacturing in 1915 and became one of the leading manufacturers of bearings in the world. They remained as a respected leader in the market until foreign competition and Government policy forced a change. In 1969 Ransome & Marles amalgamated with The Hoffmann Bearing Co and Pollard Bearings to form RHP. In 1990 NSK joined forces with RHP to form the company we know today NSK-RHP ltd."

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lonnie

There is ample working time to press in a bearing shell or press on a bearing inner prior to the Loctite setting. As George mentioned. use sparingly and remove any excess.

Should you experience difficulty disassembling components light application of heat will resolve the problem.

I dont know if you considered it, angular contact bearings are an option to the original roller bearings that were fitted on the front axles.

Graeme
G Evans

Here's an update on my squeak ...

I packed and replaced the inner and outer hub bearings on both front wheels of my TF. Bought the bearings, seals, and oil seal spacers from Moss. Used some Loctite 609 on the outer bearing on the right wheel that was less than an interference fit to the hub.

I baked the hubs at 140F and froze the bearings at 0F. Everything went together with no problems.

I met my goal of driving the car on our first year anniversary of ownership - Dec 13. We drove to our MG club holiday party on Saturday, plus a friend's party afterward, and a British Car club party today. About 125 miles combined.

NO SQUEAK!!

By the way, I figured out why both outer bearings stopped solidly at the edge of the hub when I tried to tap them out with a drift. The center of the hub was against my workbench. So the workbench prevented the bearing from going any farther. I finally raised the hubs off of the bench and the bearings popped out. Newbee mistake.

Thanks for all of your help and advice. I had never held a bearing in my hands before. Couldn't have done it without you.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

This thread was discussed between 07/12/2014 and 15/12/2014

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