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MG TD TF 1500 - gas cap hinge (rivit) hole broken

1950 TD. There is a rivet (or a cotter pin in my case) that goes through 2 holes on gas tank filler neck and 2 matching holes on the cap itself. This pin then becomes the "hinge" for the cap.
One of the "holes" on the filler neck has broken off and my cotter pin is holding only on one side! If that side breaks off the gas cap will no longer seal!!
Short of draining and removing the entire tank to have someone (who?) weld a new such piece on, are there any easier ideas out there?
I can send a photo if necessary but most of you guys know what I mean I think(?). Archives has been consulted but can't find a fix.
Thanks much,
Ed
efh Haskell

Ed,
Carefully grid it, (as in lots of wet rags and sealed from fumes), Clean it, JB Weld it, drill it, paint it, re-attach it with a stainless steel 440 screw and capture nut.
Mine has held for 10+ years!
David Sheward 55 TF1500 # 7427

David, thanks for the quick response!
Not sure I understand. Are you saying you "fabricated" a tab out of JB (the piece that broke off and is missing) and drilled a hole in it or you made a new tab out of something and JB'd it to the filler neck? I'm missing the technique I guess. Do you happen to have a picture of what you did?
Ed
efh Haskell

Yep,
fabricated a tab out of JB (the piece that broke off and is missing) and drilled a hole in it!
Will try and get a pix for you later.
David Sheward 55 TF1500 # 7427

Is the broken piece still hanging on the cotter pin?

When you clean up the metal, use a brass brush to eliminate the chances of spark and explosion. I'd also suggest a large rubber expansion plug in the throat of the tank as well. I can't imagine the JB holding up in that application, but hey ( best duck dynasty hey) David's word is good enough for me to have a shot.

If it doesn't work out and you don't want to drain and steam the tank, I think I'd head to the hardware store and buy some stainless sheet and fabricate a ring to go around the the neck to do the job.
MG LaVerne

I am amazed it is still holding ...was intended as a quick temp fix but actually forgot about it till I saw your post!

IMHO: JB can be a strange animal...things I thought would/should work have fallen apart in short order. Others have held for a very long time.

Grace (Drive away Cancer Car) I fixed a broken seam in bottom corner of the gas tank when it was here. "WET" ...never drained the gas,(no time), and it was leaking like a sieve when I put it on. My best hope was to "slow it down" a little before he left for Chicago. John told me it is still holding. Go figure.
David Sheward 55 TF1500 # 7427

Negative LaVerne, the piece is long gone.
I just took a closer look at the locking system. It "looks like" the entire "ring" with the hinge in the rear and the latch in the front is a separate "part" that should be available somewhere? Mine even has a very slight wiggle to it that indicates it can be removed in it's entirety perhaps? If so I should be able to fabricate a whole new ring as LaVerne is suggesting. Anybody know how that ring is removed before I attempt?
I realize Moss is "N/A" on gas caps and they apparently sold a "threaded adaptor" that required welding but it is "N/A" as well. There must be more options?
Ed
efh Haskell

Abingdon lists them 19-123A at $156.60.
that does not mean they have them, you would need to call.
800-225-0251

Jim B.
JA Benjamin

I used JB weld on the corner of my block and it is holding after 18 years. Also fixed a leak in the gas tank at bottom. leaking, put JB weld on it and still holding after 12 years.
Tom Maine

Jim, thanks but it's not the cap I'm talking about. My cap is fine. It's the top portion of the filler neck that has the 2 "tabs" with holes in the back to receive the cotter pin. One of my tabs is missing.

Tom and Dave, Wayne Carini did the same JB fix on a leaking gas tank on a million dollar Shelby Cobra! Then he sent it to the auction.

Ed


efh Haskell

pix 1

David Sheward 55 TF1500 # 7427

pix 2
Ed,
If you go somewhat this rote and need 440 stainless screw let me know ...I have a bunch of them and can send you a few.

David Sheward 55 TF1500 # 7427

every car I have restored has some JB Weld in it somewhere. I could write a book...
David
D. Sander

David, thanks much. I guess I didn't explain this very well. I'm talking about the 2 tabs on the REAR of the filler neck that the cotter pin "or hinge pin" goes through. Looks like you're talking about the latch on the FRONT of the filler neck.
Why doesn't somebody sell a complete replacement filler neck with all parts intact!!? Looks like a job for LaVerne Industries!
Ed
efh Haskell

Here is my attempt on fixing my problem (pix below). The silver strip below is what I fabricated. It will be JB welded to the exterior of the gas tank filler spout to replace the missing hinge tab and hole. The area has been stripped of all paint and will be roughed up. The tab on the other side of the filler spout is still intact but I will reinforce it with some JB just in case.
The new part is just aluminum. I have some steel but I think it's greater thickness may interfere with the cap's closing. The alum is thinner. In any case, it's 100% better that what's there now - nothing! I may reinforce the tab portion with JB after installation as well.

Before I smear on that JB forever (tomorrow morning) I would really appreciate any comments, suggestions, or things I may have missed. This is a "one shot" deal!

Thanks in advance,
Ed


efh Haskell

MY bad...you explained it fine ...I didn't listen!
David Sheward 55 TF1500 # 7427

Ed

Dont want to rain on your parade, however think JB weld just attaching a tab is not the way to go.

LaVerne has provided a better solution. i believe you need to fabricate a ring the same outside diameter as the neck out of sheet tin complete with 2 new tabs. The split in the ring should be 180 degrees opposite the tabs.

Drain the tank and bung the outlet. Fill the tank with water.

As suggested bung the tank neck, completely clean the filler neck and then tin the outer face of the neck and the internal face of the fabricated ring with 60-40 solder. Install the ring ensuring the tabs are positioned correctly and twitch tie wire around it to hold it clamped in place. Sweat the two tinned surfaces together and then remove the twitched wire.

Ensure you dont solder the wire twitch to the fabricated ring.

After draining the water from the tank add a 1 Litre bottle of methylated spirits to the tank when you fill it with petrol. This will allow any residual water to mix with the petrol and will have negligible effect on the vehicles performance.
G Evans

G, thanks for your input!
The reason I'm suggesting a half-ring for the side with the missing tab is twofold. 1) I agree a 360 degree full ring would be better but the latch on the front of the neck and it's associated parts that support it would prevent making a 360 degree full ring, would it not? (see David's #2 picture above)

2)Even if I could make a full ring it's extra thickness under the latch might prevent the latch from working properly. My 1/2 ring goes all the way to the latch then stops. If it works well I can add a 2nd 1/2 ring to the other side some day if needed.

As far as the strength of the JB, I tried a prototype ring on a piece of scrap pipe last night. That ring is there forever! Why would solder provide a stronger bond (assuming I have a torch and the skills to do it)?
Ed

efh Haskell

Why not make a new collar with a flange, with two sets of holes, one pair over the other on a flange. Top two holes for the gas cap and bottom two holes to secure the collar to the tank neck. Wrap the tank neck with a 1" wide length of 1/32 thick rubber.

Just a thought.

R C Flowers

R C,
Thanks for your input. If you have time a drawing of some sort would help. Nothing fancy. I'm really not following your idea. "Picture = 1,000 words", as they say.
Thanks!
Ed
efh Haskell

Retraction to above:
My report above that JB Weld holds is incorrect! On a test prototype I am able to slide a sharp blade under the piece and easily pop the whole thing off with my finger!! Tried "Gorilla Glue" - same result! And I don't have the skills or equipment to "sweat" the ring on with solder as suggested above. (Still not sure why that would hold? Solder is meant for electric connections with no tension on them, no?? Is "braising" the answer? If so, not in my skill set.)

Has anyone maybe "glued" a threaded pipe into the opening and used a non-TD threaded gas cap perhaps? Is this what Moss used to sell maybe? Just an idea...

My car is out of service until I get this resolved. The gas cap is only holding on one side and if it comes off "in flight" I'm out one gas cap which may or may not even be replaceable as you guys know.
I cannot believe I'm the only TD owner who has had this very meek cap hinge arrangement fail! Anybody?

Frustrated,
Ed
(Yes, I also added this new report to get this thread back to the top. I admit it but really need some help!)
efh Haskell

I still believe the stainless sheet is the way to go Ed.

You can cut it with snips to the width and length you need. Bend a couple of tabs after you dill for the cap. Cut out a notch for the latch arrangement. Clean all of the paint off the neck. Wrap it around the neck with some JB to hold it. Maybe some rubber bands to hold it in place until the stuff sets up. Another possibility would be to use one of the clamps made for the large end of the steering rack boot. Fairly narrow and the two openings for the screw would be about right. Short of the the best fix is to take the tank off and weld or braze a new lug into position after clearing the tank of gasoline vapor. I wouldn't consider the setup "meek". I mean it's worked for 64 years right? What else can you find out there that works after that long?

For a temp measure to allow you to drive the car, go buy one of those large tappered rubber plugs. Drill a hole in it and run some copper tubing or clear plastic tubing in it with a loop on the outside to allow the tank to vent. Should get you by until you can do a proper repair.
MG LaVerne

I'm surprised that JB Weld didn't hold. The only times I've seen it not hold are when the surface has dirt or residual grease/oil/resin on it. I've even seen it hold fantastically even on polished glass. Try cleaning the surface very thoroughly with lacquer thinner or MEK prior to application... that should remove any remaining gasoline resins.
Kevin McLemore

Here's a rough drawing.

R C Flowers

R.C. Thanks very much for the drawing! The problem is, at least on my TD, there are 2 "tabs" (for lack of the proper term) on the FRONT of the collar that are missing in your drawing. They have a hole drilled in each. The "pin" that holds the release device goes through one of these tabs, then thru the release device, then through the other tab's hole. That is why I'm saying a 360 degree collar is not possible. There is no way to wrap the collar around with these tabs in the way.
Am I missing something?
efh Haskell

Picture below shows why I cannot fabricate a full 360 degree "collar" around filler neck that some of you have suggested. The front 2 tabs for the release device are in the way.
Am I missing something obvious (it wouldn't be the first time!)
Ed


efh Haskell

Just went out and studied my cap. Not much room in that area for sure. I suggest the collar idea, but that just goes around the broken side only, and stops at the struts for the release tab. You would have to put a tight sharp bend in it to get the pivot hole in the right place, but could be done, and it may need a slightly longer screw as the new hole may be out a bit further from center. Then you could carefully strip the paint and JB weld the half collar to the tank neck, then paint. Most important: even to do that, I would drain the tank, flush/wash out with alcohol/soap/water (likely someone has a better idea than that stuff), and then fill with water before even touching the metal. One tiny spark from a file, drill, or even fitting the metal and that would be it for you and the car. Obviously the best way is to pull the tank and have it welded, but the above should work. George
George Butz

Thank you George! I thought I was going nuts. If you look way above in this post I posted a picture of EXACTLY what you are suggesting - a "half collar" for the broken side to be JB welded into place.

Sometimes I think these posts just get too detailed and folks don't actually see all that is posted. I do appreciate everyone's comments though! All ideas are ALWAYS welcomed!
Ed

efh Haskell

Your cap is different from the cap on my 52 TD. The release is attached to the cap on mine. I am fabricating collar due to the same failure at one of the holes where the rear pin slides through.
R C Flowers

Ed, in studying your cap, you can fabricate a collar consisting of two individual straps that would attach to each side of your release clip supports by drilling a small hole in the center of the tabs on each side of the clip supports, dead center, then use the tabs on the back side as in the original drawing, one pair of holes for a machine screw and lock nut to tighten the collar onto the filler neck and the other to attach the cap. The collar would need only be as wide as the unpainted section below the rim in your photograph. I'll be glad to draw it if needed.
R C Flowers

Updated drawing for a collar that would fit the style of your filler neck and cap locking / release.

R C Flowers

RC, the mystery continues! If there are >1 types of gas caps out there for TD's that explains some of the confusion with this thread!
Your drawing is awesome. Where did you learn to draw like that? I could never do that. I'm going to "fabricate" your idea on a piece of stiff paper first and see if it will work. The machine screw in the front may interfere with the spring latch built into my cap. I'll let you know.
Please post a photo of your repair if possible. I would love to see it. So would others I'm sure.
Thanks again,
Ed
efh Haskell

RC has the right idea but I would still go with a full narrow band that runs beneath the release tabs and then do the rear as he has shown in his drawings. With just a little tension there would be no need to use JB to hold it in place.
MG LaVerne

LaVerne, can you do me a favor and take a look at your TD gas cap? Mine is pictured above for comparison in yesterday's 20:01:07 post. There is no way I could fit a 360 degree ring "beneath the release tabs" as you suggest. There is maybe 1/8" room there. Plus a full ring at that level would not be on the correct filler spout. It would be too low and the area it would be over is "rounded" on top hence it would slip up. If you mean physically under those release tabs, that's impossible. They are welded on, at least on my car. Is your car different maybe like RC's?
Ed
efh Haskell

Ed, Thank you. The drawings are just quick sketches. I have always made my living as a professional artist, wildlife work for three different game commissions here in the East and traditional rural and riverine landscapes.

I've not fabricated my repair collar yet although I do have all of the materials. I've been busy in the studio as well as torqueing the doors on the TD with steel rods and turn buckles and then repairing a broken brake line around the hogs head and subsequently bleeding all the brakes and adjusting them. The collar will be done soon, as soon as I trace down a short that eliminated my instrument lights.

Here's one of my water color landscapes by the way.

R C Flowers

Beautiful! That could have been done 2 minutes from our house in Crested Butte, CO on the East river. My wife dabbles in water colors. I'll show her this! It almost looks like a photo! (That is a complement by the way, at least from me.)
Ed
efh Haskell

This is one of those threads that I was reading with just casual interest but as it progressed the urge to carefully study my (TD25009, Feb '53) gained strength. The picture below is my cap and I can see Ed's problems. The The assembly appears to be based on a flared tube of fairly substantial (maybe 16 or 18 ga. steel)inserted into a reinforced ring fabricated into the tank itself. The tabs for the cap appear to be from the part of the flare that was cut out to accomodate the hindge pin but perhaps they are little pieces welded to the flared tube. The pabs on the other side for the release levers are clearly little pieces welded to the flared tube. There is no room between the tabs for the release lever and the tube to slip a ring through so the full ring method does not appear feasible. nonetheless, a partial ring of metal strip bent out at the end to be the hinge pin tab and solidly JB'd to the tube does look feasible. With a partial ring 2 or 3 inches long and with the oustide of the tube thoroughly cleaned and sanded there should be a copious amount of bonding area for the JB to adhere to.

Another discovery (at least for me) is revealed in the next post.

Jud

J K Chapin

Efh,

If you use two small machine screws with lock nuts with the screw heads on the inside of the holes in the tabs with the threads sticking out, you shouldn't have any interference with the locking mechanism on the gas cap.

You could then grind off any extra threads protruding from the lock nut and then add a little silicone adhesive and cover the nuts with small chrome covers that are easily available at any Harley Davidson dealership. It would make for a clean presentation. Also, if chrome isn't desirable, there are nut covers available in plastic or nylon that could easily be painted with Rustoleum paint that bonds with plastics.

Just an idea.
R C Flowers

Until I undertook the previous investigation I never realized that the release lever is embossed (stamped?) with the MG logo. perhaps I'm the last to know this but it was news to me.

Jud

J K Chapin

My cap's a reproduction, installed 38 years ago during the restoration project. Hence the difference. JK, that's pretty cool!
R C Flowers

Ed

Apologies for not get back to you earlier, I should have applied more careful consideration to your problem and the fact you may have limited resources.

Soldering a ring to the filler neck with an aperture for the catch would be viable however you would need a large soldering iron to sweat the two components together. Solder will with stand considerable shear forces and is used for many applications other than electrical work.

Thinking more laterally I believe the solution is to blind pop rivet the fabricated ring to the filler neck. Blind pop rivets are self sealing so you wont have an issue with fuel leakage. You can locate the rivets at spacings that will mold your ring to the profile of the neck.

I would select the smallest diameter blind pop rivets that are available and take precautionary measure to ensure drill swarf does not enter your tank when you drill the holes to install them. Pop rivet pliers are an inexpensive item to purchase if you dont all ready possess them.
G Evans

This thread was discussed between 28/07/2014 and 03/08/2014

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