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MG TD TF 1500 - Ignition Left On - Damage?

My TF was running very poorly hardly at all, but started easily, probably condenser or somewhere in ignition system. Then yesterday I accidently left ignition switch/key on maybe up to 8 hours. Now it wont start at all and my Battery Tender shows it continually charging, which it usually does not. The battery though is fully charged. Question - what will leaving the ignition on do to the system, what will it burn out? HELP! Thanks,

Keith
K E MURPHY

Likely results are either points welded closed (if they were closed the last time the engine was run) or possibly a burned out coil.
LD Palmer

Points. The condenser issue is troubling. Scads of these are failing right out of the box, or shortly after being out in to service.
David
D. Sander

Thanks Sander and Palmer. My mechanic and friend is supposed to come over and I will let you know. After winning Peoples Choice at Greenwich CT over 124 cars, I barely limped home, it getting progressively worse over the 100 mile trip. I feel it is electric, not gas. After I left the ignition on it now barely kicks but not start. I feel that whatever was wrong, this just made it worse. I tried another coil and same, so I hope it is points or condenser - which I have a new one from Moss so we will see. Let you know. PS if any of you hear of the Dayton wire wheels with stainless spokes failing, let me know. I have now had two fail - on the way to GoF Mk 95 and on way home from Greenwich. Dayton is rebuilding. I think it might be metal fatigue in the spokes. First time they said it was cause I drove on flat, even though it had 10 lbs when I stopped. This time they failed with air in the tires - I watched as it deflated in front of my eyes! They will not comment. They told a Jaguar specialist that it was because he had TOO much air in the tire!!
K E MURPHY

My Dayton have been on over 10 years. No spoke problems. Mine are 72 spoke models.
As Mr. Palmer has said many times "90percent of all fuel problems, are electrical in nature".
TRM Maine

There is a good chance your new condenser from Moss will fail right out of the box. Better than half are junk right out of the box.
David
D. Sander

For more information on capacitor (condenser) failure see Steve Maas's article Condenser Failure in Conventional Ignition Systems on Bud Kruger's T Talk at http://www.ttalk.info/Tech/TechIndex.html Cheers - Dave
DW DuBois

Great article. Sure explains why the AM capacitors/condensers fail & will continue to fail! Call me old fashioned but I firmly believe that both the manufacturer & the on seller have a duty of care to ensure the item they make & sell is fit for purpose. There is way too much junk knowingly being flogged for our cars by the "big player". My solution was to stop buying their crap & go elsewhere. I have a few original capacitors still mounted on the dizzy plate in my parts bin which I'll now treat with much greater respect. This problem also makes the 123 EI even more attractive. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Keith,
If you leave your key on, one of two things happen-
the points are open and no juice runs through the ign.
the points are closed and currents runs unrestricted.

If the latter occurs, the coil is subjected to current for about twice as long as running. This can raise the coil temp higher than normal.

I'd file the points and reset them to the proper gap. Next, hook up a timing light to witness firing. In lieu of a timing light, I'd do a rude & crude coil check and stick a plug wire into the coil and set a spark plug on some grounded metal. If the points are closed, I stick a slender screwdriver in and (with ign. on) open them up, looking for a spark. If the points are open, I'd slip that same screwdriver in to short the points out and remove it to witness sparks.


As for broken spokes, a company in the business of wire wheels as long as Dayton surely hasn't forgotten how to make spokes. They're handing out excuses rather than admit their junk spokes are failing. I'm willing to bet, they're procuring spokes, or complete wheels from a supplier that never knew how to process wire and coldhead spokes properly. We have a set of Dayton wheels over a half century old that never lost a single spoke. The set of Dayton rims we procured within the last decade has now had 4 broken spokes. I understand potholes are an issue, but when haven't they been. Washboard dirt roads were the norm way back when so wheel technology has become lapse/cheapened, not better over the years.

In anticipation on GOF Central, I just checked our "new" set and found 2 more broken spokes. Being a welding engineer, I do repairs a bit different. First, I'll loosen the spoke to position the broken spoke portion back into the hub. Next, I lightly clamp vise grips onto the spoke and attach my welding ground to the wrench. Then, I TIG weld a new ball onto the end of the broken spoke that is protruding through the hub hole. The repair is wrapped up with snugging down the repaired spoke and tuning all the spokes together. I expect I'll be repairing spokes as long as we keep driving on these very pretty wheels.

JRN JIM

Might ask how many spoke wheels you have Keith? I have 48 spoke Daytons on my TF I have had one spoke break on 3 wheels and 3 on one wheel while driving to the GOF near Chicago in 2012. I put it down to "I should put 60 spoke wheels on the car". I bought replacement spokes from Hendrix Wire Wire Wheel. Alan expressed his disappointment with the quality of the Daytons he was receiving at the time. He said the India made ones were actually better wheels at that time. I have a set of 60 spoke Daytons on my B now for 20 years with zero issues.
MG LaVerne

I have 60 spoke daytons with polished SS spokes and Chrome time that I bought about 4-5 years ago. No problems yet and I drive pretty hard.
Alex Waugh

It sounds like your battery is nearly flat, whatever else is happening. Your battery tender will take forever to charge it. It's just not intended for that, as it doesn't put out enough current. A good general purpose charger is not a bad investment. I've had a "smart charger" for years; cost $50 and it's one of my favorite tools.

Last week I left the key in the ignition, turned on, in my 2003 Toyota MR2 for almost a week. Needed to go somewhere, tried to start the car, and the battery was totally dead. Charged it up to the point where it would start and run in about an hour.
S Maas

Keith, you'll find that 'battery tenders' are sensitive to current. If they sense that current is being drawn from the battery they'll 'never' go into the 'hold' mode. Some alarm systems draw more than this low limit and prevent tenders from working properly. Bud
Bud Krueger

Thanks Guys. On the Electrics - fried the expensive original look coil that Moss sells. The Dist was closed when igi left on, but points not welded. I put the old original Dec 1953 coil on and it started and runs, but still have the original very poor running problem and we are checking it out.
As to the wheels, I bought them when first started restoring about 6 or 7 years ago, but they have only about 1400 miles on them. Very carefully controlled miles on good roads to the Gof and to Greenwich Concours, both of which I won and both of which I broke wheels on way, with air still in the tires - turns out the wheels is what caused the flat not the other way around. I think it is their metallurgy in the stainless spokes. They are 60 spoke 165/15 tires.
Dayton rebuilt my original ones in 1978 and I drove 40k miles and never tightened a spoke! With what I am reading above, something is afoot with these wheels as Sherlock Holmes would say, and need to be investigated!
K E MURPHY

Stainless spokes are more likely to fail than mild steel. That said, you shouldn't be breaking spokes on new wheels no matter which type they are. I've run wire wheels for over 25 years, and I drive my cars hard. From 48 to 72 spoke I've put a lot of miles on all of them, and have had no problems with breakage except on a 60-year-old set of 19" wires, which I rebuilt with new (mild steel) spokes and haven't had a problem since (now at 20K miles).
Steve Simmons

This thread was discussed between 27/06/2015 and 28/06/2015

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