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MG TD TF 1500 - Installing front crank seal w/engine in place.

About 4 years ago I installed a new front crank seal while lying on my back under Lazarus in February. I've owned up to not having done it well enough. I'm trying again. I'm discovering that I was a lot more flexible in my 70's than I am in my 80's.

However, I've run into a serious snag. I can not access the screws that are at 7:30 and 9 o'clock on the sump. One holds the clamp for the bottom end of the vent tube from the side cover. The other holds the ground cable. I'm beginning to think that I'll have to remove the scuttle ramp as if I were removing the engine/gearbox. This may well be what I did four years ago.

I'm already aghast at how much disassembling I've had to do to get to this point. It sounds like a simple job. Just remove the sump and timing cover. Ha! Ha!

Has anybody done this without having to take the inside of the tub apart? Bud
Bud Krueger

I contemplated just removing the crank pulley and cleaning out the outer surface with some carb cleaner until it was dry and the installing a new seal on the crank pulley with a bead of the right stuff on the back side of the seal and putting it back together. I thought it might have a chance at working without disassembling the whole damn thing. Never got around to it though. I figured for the price of a seal it might be worth a shot. Maybe not.
L E D LaVerne

Bud;
I'm 83 now.
I have lately thought I should have done more on the TD earlier, that perhaps I put it off too soon.

Fortunately I did get it running and STOPPING so I can enjoy it a bit.

Not too many leaks yet. We rebuilt the engine in 1984-1986 but it never ran 'till lately.

Jim B.
JA Benjamin

Bud,
Our friend Mark from the Ottawa MG CLUB made a "cutter" to do this with out removing the engine or sump..

Steve
SPW Wincze

Steve, I have studied the many postings on the threads regarding the use of the cutters. I might consider using a cutter if I had access to the inside of the sump for assurance that all chips were accounted for. Bud
Bud Krueger

Hi Bud,
I have changed the front seal on my TF with the engine in situ TWICE both times with minimum trouble. Initially I fitted a lip seal when the engine was rebuilt but this leaked after a run up the road. I was not totally happy with fixing the seal in with silicone and assumed this was where the fault was. I replaced this and even though I had to crawl under the car the job wasn't too difficult. However the new seal still leaked so I had to dismantle the whole thing once again. I found the seals I had purchased from a T Series parts supplier were sloppy on the stub of the pulley. I had polished the stub with very fine abrasive paper to remove any marks from the original rope type seal and this may have reduced the diameter but I am not convinced and suspect the seals I had purchased were a compromise. After measuring the stub I was able to buy a correctly sized lip seal from Brammers for almost pence. If you take the pulley to the store they will measure the stub for you. Considering the work and the cost of buying new engine oil I would regard checking the size of the seal as vital.

I had considered making up a tool to cut the front lip off the chain cover and the sump so a seal could be tapped in. I would have piloted this off the crank it self. But this would have required either dowling the sump and cover to the block or making a making a jig to ensure the sump and case lined up as the sump bolts were tighted. Definitely an engine out job.

Jan
J Targosz

Hi Bud, Just took a look under my car. Remove the clutch rod from the bellhousing lever to relay lever on the sump. It looks like you can get to the bracket clamp bolt (the lower one on my car) with a 3/8" socket/extension/universal joint, snaking between the frame (pedal box?) and the bellhousing lever. I would totally remove the pipe as well. The top one looks tough- may be able to get with a 3/8" socket and a very short extension. Otherwise, off with the metal tranny cover. Pretty sure you can get to it that way without removing the entire foot plate. I also noticed a nice puddle of oil under my car after a robust drive last weekend. I gave up on the oil leak chase a long time ago! George
George Butz

George, I think you may be right about the gearbox cover being sufficient. I can get the socket/universal on the bolt head, but can't turn it. Thanks, Bud
Bud Krueger

No way would I use a cutter for a press seal without having the engine out for a cleaning when finished. This is what was in the cover after I cut mine. I took everything back apart for a good cleaning after I was done.

L E D LaVerne

Bud, I have a few questions.

"I can not access the screws that are at 7:30 and 9 o'clock on the sump."
As you can see from the photo those two bolts are perfectly accessible on my TD. Are we talking about the same two bolts?

"I'm beginning to think that I'll have to remove the scuttle ramp"
What do you mean by scuttle ramp?

About six years ago I put modern seal in the cavity where are the rope seal goes. I centered it carefully and put an adequate amount of gasket sealant around it and was lucky enough to never have a drop leak. Last year, after re-boring the cylinders, the machine shop did a lousy job replacing that seal and it leaked profusely. I decided to mill out the front of the timing chain cover and sump. I pulled the engine out of the car again to do the job. It is possible, though more time-consuming two do it with the engine in place. I assume you already have the radiator and front apron and possibly the bumper off the car. That would make the seal area accessible for hand milling. I did it of course, with the sump in place. I was careful to go slow and vacuum frequently. I did not remove the timing chain cover for clean out after I was finished. I got the opening that I desired, caulked the cavity and put the seal in place. This procedure makes the seat for the seal and the crankshaft perfectly concentric. Shoud there ever be a need to replace that seal, the sump does not have to be removed and it can be done with the engine in place.

I have put thousands of miles on the car since then without a drop of oil from the front seal.

As I remember I used the tool that belongs to Gene Gillam. LaVerne had it at that time.

Due to the nature of this procedure the purists would have my head on a pole but I am delighted with the results.
Mort



Mort Resnicoff

Mort, No clue what kind of tranny and bell housing that is, but nothing like the stock one. There is minimal to no room on the originals. I also don't see the tube/clamp at all, which further eliminates room/clearance. Wish I had done the front seal mod like you did when the engine was out. George
George Butz

That is a Datsun gear box
L E D LaVerne

Okay, Mort, happy to have you yank my chain. I'd get the same photo from Lazarus except the XPAG gearbox has a few things in the way. That clutch linkage is a dream.

Scuttle Ramp is the OEM name for the piece of sheet metal that goes across the lower front of the tub. The Gearbox Cover attaches to it. Moss calls it the Bulkhead Foot Plate.

Yes, the bumper, radiator, bonnet and apron are on the shelf.

Mort, I truly appreciate your ingenuity and craftsmanship, but I'd need to know that no swarf had gotten into the sump.

Bud
Bud Krueger

Hi Bud,

We replaced the seal last year and put helicoils in the sump/bell housing connection at the same time. I mostly recall some difficulties with two bolts about mid way on the sump on either side due to poor access. Just had to find the right wrench and spend the time working a short throw. Manley Ford suggested replacing the hex heads with allen heads, so we did that, but I can't say it made anything easier.

I recommend purchasing the B&G machined crank pulley. Our original pulley was visibly worn and would never seal with the modern seal. It costs more, but it is a sure thing.

Jim

https://www.ukmgparts.com/product/tbtc-midcat-3-subtbtc2-engine-internal-parts/crank-pulley-front-t-type-aaa5779
J Barry

Thanks Jim, I'll probably pull the pulley out tomorrow to have a look. I replaced it a few years ago when I discovered a crack in it. Working from on the ground under the car tends to add the 'degree of difficulty' factor. Bud
Bud Krueger

Bud,
Sometimes when you see a thing for so long it tends to become invisible. In thinking about your problem with the bolt access I kept picturing my bell housing. Even after raising the car and taking the above picture I completely neglected the fact that I have the Datsun 210 transmission. The original transmission is under my bench and out of sight, out of mind.

When I did this job I did put in two dowel pins to ensure alignment of the seat for the front seal.

While I cannot recommend not taking the sump off after milling the seat I can only tell you that I did not. I was very careful and have had no problems. Even if a few chips of aluminum got into the timing cover area I did not see a problem with them laying around in there. Once again the purists would have my head on a pole. All I can say is thousands of miles later my car runs and performs like a dream.

Good luck with your project and let me know if there's anyway I can help.
Mort
Mort Resnicoff

Pulled the pulley out. It measures 35.96 mm. There is an optical ring around it where the seal has been, but there is zero feel-able grooving. The new seal is a very snug (dry) fit. Looking at the timing cover it looks as if the leakage has been around the seal, rather than through it. As I mentioned earlier, the pulley was replaced a while back. I'll keep it.

George, you're right about removing the gearbox cover. I forgot how big a job that is. Oh well, I haven't had the carpeting out for quite a while anyhow. Bud
Bud Krueger

This thread was discussed between 11/11/2017 and 15/11/2017

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