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MG TD TF 1500 - Lead Wiping

About to have a crack at lead wiping. This is something that I've never attempted before, let alone starting with the second most difficult task, that is asking the lead to stay put vertically. The B pillar on the passenger side requires a shift forward of about 8 mm at the top down to nothing at the bottom, as a result of a poorly repaired prang in the late sixties, whilst in the hands of the DPO. (Not you Robert!)

You Tube has some useful videos but after viewing a few, a number of questions arise. The paddle needs to be dipped in either tallow, beeswax or motor oil. The latter is panned by Dale Winfield who is reckoned to be something of a guru. Also wondering if Bakers Soldering Fluid will be OK for the tinning as that was used by the guy who recommended motor oil. I'd like to use candle wax on the paddle & the BSF as I have both. Dale's suggestions & the techniques demonstrated on the Eastwood video are gold & makes it seem just within my grasp. Any comments from someone who's been there & done that on a vertical surface would be much appreciated. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Hi Peter,

I did some lead work on my Mk2 Jag in about 1981. It didn't seem too hard to do at the time (I was younger then!) Lead doesn't make the body files go blunt like bog does, so there is that advantage. I remember tinning the surface by painting on a special tinning mixture. I will look in the shed to see if I can find the name of it because I reckon I still have some. Once the mixture is painted on, You heat the surface with a flame until you see tiny beads of lead appear. At that point you wipe it off with a rag and it leaves a beautifully tinned surface ready to apply the lead. I don't remember what I used on the paddles but I think I didn't use much of anything ... with the result that my paddles (odd bits of wood) seemed to char a bit. You don't want a hot flame. I think I used a special tip on the oxy/acetylene. It used acetylene only as it introduced air into the special tip. Once again I must check the shed as I would still have that too. I am sure BOC would have the suitable tips.

Good luck with the work!
Bob Schapel
R L Schapel

Clean the bare metal well. Use a clean solder paste, then put a film of solder on the metal to tin it. This will allow the lead to stick. Heat the lead up and melt, using a piece of wood to shape and flatten the lead.
lost art...
David
D. Sander

Thanks Bob & David. I'm OK with the process & the necessity for cleanliness, having studied the "You Tube" videos, but it was just the vertical application technique that I was interested in. Gravity & all that. Not sure whether I should start at the bottom or the top? Also the motor oil is out so I'm left still wondering if candle wax for the paddle & the Bakers Soldering Fluid for the tinning would be OK? I don't need a lot of heat so I'm using my LPG gas bottle. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter, the candle wax will work fine on your paddle. If you make your own paddle, make sure the lead smoothing surface is flat and even. The main procedure to apply lead to a vertical surface is to keep the torch moving. It takes practice to learn when to apply a little head and decide when the paddle will be effective to move the lead. It's sort of an alternating process. I think I used to apply small blobs of lead over the whole area to be filled, then gradually work your way up from the bottom to smooth it all out. Patience is the watchword and don't expect to become an expert in a few minutes. The proper tinning of more than the area to be filled is strongly advised.
Good Luck
Jim Merz

I've watched a blacksmith pour lead to make bases for railings. You might want to consider making a frame around the part with something removeable (wood?) then just pouring lead into the cavity. If you clean the metal well (I would consider roughening it up as well, to give crevices for the lead to fill and adhere to) it might do the trick. No expertise here, just remembering how I saw it done a long time ago...
Geoffrey M Baker

Peter, you should have no problem with the vertical surface if you use the correct body solder. It is formulated to remain in a plastic state through a relatively wide temperature range so it can be paddled out. I did a bunch of this in the old days but not any more. It is toxic and, from what I have read and used, it offers no real advantage over a good epoxy or polyester based filler. I think it was used years ago in production cars since they did not have anything better. Also the heat from the soldering torch may cause panel warping.
Just my opinion on this, what I consider an archaic practice.
Cheers, Hugh
H.D. Pite

Peter, Hughs comments need to be taken on board, worked in the battery production industry so am well aware of lead toxicity when it is heated and what were the outcomes for long term employees

I attended a T series restoration workshop and it was recommended that "Evercoat Rage Gold" is the only filler to use.
G Evans

Food for thought. I have a quality respirator & planned to use a fan to blow the fumes out the garage door. I'll look into the Evercoat Rage Gold Graeme. If I can bog it up I'd rather do that as there's far less work involved. I'd planned to strip out the B pillar & the timber at the top of the rear quarter panel to prevent them from burning during the job. I found the bottom rail & hinge stile on the door had been burnt seriously & thus were both structurally compromised. This was caused by brazing to treat rust in the bottom corner of the door skin, again by the DPO. Thanks to all for the advice. The vast amount of knowledge & the willingness to share it to ensure the preservation of our cars places this site among the very best in the world, IMHO. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I have found aluminum (metal 2 metal) to be the best filler. I use it to go over weld seams. Unlike plastic fillers, aluminum body filler won't absorb water. The aluminum filler is a bear to sand, costs a bit more, and has a short shelf life. This filler looks a lot like lead, but I am sure it performs better. I still use plastic filler for a skim coat on top.
For years I have coated bare metal with epoxy primer, and then done all my body work over the epoxy primer.
-David
D. Sander

5 Things to know about lead body work. 1 If you can do it outside do so. Lead fumes and lead dust from sanding are bad news! 2 After tining and befor building up lead, wash tined area with water wet rags very well to remove all traces of flux. If you dont you can get rust under your repair. Very bad to have happen after painting. 3 Use a propane torch so you dont over heat. You will warp body and over heat lead and it will all fall to the floor and piss you off if you use a hoter torch. 4 When applying lead dont over heat work. Heat tined area of body and take lead bar and melt on body by rubing bar on heated tined body area. You want lead to be in plastic state when applying and smoothing with paddle. Body lead comes in bars. 5 You will nead a lead file, paddle, fresh flux, lead bars and lube for your paddle. All available from Eastwood. Good luck MGTDC-26679.
Forrest Rubenstein

I had to lead some areas on my TF. Some of you fellas have followed all the body work I did on this car. Here's a couple leaded in areas after removing a ton of Bondo. PJ


Paul161

On the top, rebuilding door edge. There's more lead on the car in various places, replacing a ton of Bondo. The Green is etching primer. PJ


Paul161

I would certainly recommend doing lead work out of doors, with a good fan going. On the other hand, don't let it scare you... it took many years of constant lead exposure for hatters to go mad, after all.
But I suppose it all depends on where you start from, and most TD owners are probably not too sane to begin with, right? :)
Geoffrey M Baker

Geoffrey - as I remember it, mercury was the hatter's downfall, not lead.

I second the use of the new aluminum filler, which is a big step above lead from virtually every point of view.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Just curious. Why would you want to use lead when Bondo is so simple and readily available?
efh Haskell

Right as usual Tom :)
Geoffrey M Baker

I agree with Goeffery, but, were only as crazy other people think we are! LOL

"But I suppose it all depends on where you start from, and most TD owners are probably not too sane to begin with, right?"
Paul161

Peter, there might be another way to move the top of the B pillar a bit forward.
The tub is bolted to the chassis at six places. If you would lift the rear one at the passenger side with some shims (I would start with 5 mm and see what it does), that will twist the tub a bit and move the door pillar forward.
It will be necessary to release the tank straps before doing this.
Good luck, huib
Huib Bruijstens

Thanks Huib. That was on my "to check" list. I guess the simple answer to your query Ed is that Bondo isn't impact resistant & lead is. Not that I plan to go smacking the old girl around. I like the idea of lead, OH & S concerns aside, because it's metal & it becomes one with the car. Also nice to pick up yet another new skill. I can hear myself in 30 years time, as I lean on my Zimmer frame, saying "Well young feller, when I lead wiped this section ..." Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Since it is not yet mentioned here, I learned to use a hot air fan (same as for paintremoval) to do the lead job. A torch is sooo hot on one spot and that makes it difficult (at least for a learner like me) to gradually apply heat especially for vertically oriented to be leaded parts. With a fan the lead more gradually gets into its clay-like condition and is easier to shape. Huib
Huib Bruijstens

Huib, as I mentioned in an earlier posting, the trick is to keep the torch flame moving at all times. This allows you to gradually heat the lead and determine with your waxed paddle when it reaches the desired plastic consistency. Takes a lot of practice but it can be done.
Jim Merz

Dale Winfields's You tube video demonstrates this perfectly Jim. Clearly the guy is a master. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Just saw a program called "Highway to Sell" & the episode was titled "Mustang Misfire". Some concern was expressed as to whether body filler could be applied directly over an earlier lead repair. Nobody in the panel shop seemed to know the answer, so bog was applied which then didn't bond to the lead. Their solution was to torch out the lead which ran like a river & they then filled the repaired areas with body filler. Is it possible to use a thin coat of filler over lead? Can a coat of a medium that will adhere to the lead & subsequently accept body filler be used? I realize if the lead work is finished to a professional level then the subsequent use of bog is unnecessary. Is it a case of either or, or never the twain shall meet? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

This thread was discussed between 29/10/2015 and 14/11/2015

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