MG-Cars.info

Welcome to our Site for MG, Triumph and Austin-Healey Car Information.

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - M.G. stands for itself!

Gryff. If you're still out there, I was looking back through the archive to see if the meaning of M.G. had ever been discussed, as I was quite surprised to discover quite recently that M.G. does not stand for Morris Garages, nor is it an abbreviation, as almost all MG owners & the public at large believe. Most of the confusion & doubt about this arises from a couple of ads that appeared in the thirties carrying the signature of Cecil Kimber where he acknowledges that the letters were in homage to Lord Nuffied. These ads have been cited as evidence that M.G. stands for Morris Garages. I have absolutely no desire to reopen the archived thread as it would almost certainly attract most of the original contributors, few of whom, apart from yourself, had anything that was either substantiated, positive or worthwhile to contribute.

You may be interested to see what Cecil Kimber had to say on the subject. There's a letter posted on the MG Nuts website & reproduced on Chris Couper's site http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/, originally published in MG Enthusiast in the October Issue of 1993. Through my research I've discovered it was written by a contemporary of Cecil, a Mr Jonathan Daniel of Northumberland who also spent some time travelling around the Brooklands circuit at speed. According to Mr Daniel, who was at the RAC dinner where Mr Kimber spoke, Cecil not only confirms that M.G. stands for itself & is not an abbreviation for Morris Garages, he also goes on to explain the meaning of the dots.

He informs us that Cecil stated quite categorically that they are not indicative of an abbreviation but are simply "a matter of design..they look more visually attractive" I must admit I found it strange that none of the contributors to the earlier thread bothered to find out what Mr Kimber had to say on the subject. This was one of the questions he was most often asked & his answer was always the same "M.G. stands for itself". His daughter Jean Kimber-Cook who sadly died last week was also at pains to correct the misconception. This is also confirmed in her column in the 1988 April/May issue of MG Enthusiast.

Peter Haining, the editor of the MG Log published by Souvenir Press Ltd in 1993 also quotes Jean on pages 34 & 35 again confirming the above. Gryf, as your contribution was more accurate than most I thought you might be interested in this.

Peter Hehir
TD 5801
P Hehir

Mate I hope you have a concrete bunker there is going to be heaps of "incomings".

Graeme
G Evans

... this is the information I have always gone by as well... although i'm afraid when people ask, I do say Morris Garages.... they tend to glaze over if I go into a longer explanation.... He should have called them CK's.....
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Gordon, Same glazed look I get when people ask if my TD is is BRG and I try to explain... George
George Butz

I know Kimber was reported as saying MG stood for itself and yes the MG makes a nice logo/badge but I can't help thinking that the initials came originally from Morris Garages which is what Kimber managed - giving his own twist to Morris cars that made them into MGs as we know them.

It is likely to be a later ploy on his part to distance MG from Morris to say it stood for itself - I don't believe the origins are not connected!
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris - it's surely a nod in the direction of Morris Garages as the place where the first cars were built on Morris chassis.
As to it being shorthand for "Morris Garages," as the article on the MG Nuts web site says, it couldn't be an abbreviation "Morris Garages" because there was already a company by that name and there could not be two of them at the same time.
As to origins, they are undeniably connected, but it's clear that from the birth of the marque as an entity in it's own right that they were separate. "The M.G. Car Company" never referred to itself at any time that has been documented as "Morris Garages."
There's nothing in the accounts of the name "M.G." that would go against Kimber's claim of the two letters being a name in themselves and not an acronym.

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez



I will not comment on previous posters writings other than to say that there were facts published at that time by George Tuck the M.G. factory publicist that correct any misconceptions. I wrote the piece below as stated in 1996 when the MGF was released for a NZ MG Car Club. I used my extensive collection of M.G. Literature to research the article.

I have just reviewed it and have changed nothing. There has always been debate about the dots.

I did talk about this subject with Jean Kimber-Cook who personally confirmed what I wrote below.

The last paragraph is my opinion the rest is fact.


"12 06 1996 For inclusion in M.G. Car Club Wellington Bulletin.

Reading with interest the many MGF reports and articles in the Media.


The term MGF was not used by the M.G. Car Company Ltd. to describe a Model. Some recent articles have incorrectly suggested the 1931 " F " Type was the first MGF. The former mentioned " New High - Performance Small Six “ as ( The Autocar described it on September the 11th 1931. ) was advertised as a 12/70 M.G. MAGNA SPORTS FOUR-SEATER @ 250.00 pounds ex works. To look at this light six cylinder sports car's description in detail, the 12, represents the Treasury rating Tax 12.08 HP costing 12 pounds, the /70, indicating power output, the actual power output was 37.2 BHP @ 4,100 RPM, M.G., MAGNA, being the Model Type.

The M.G. MAGNA was produced and in its last specification as an “F3” a four Seater Tourer with larger brakes and minor engine modifications, finishing in 1933 after totalling 1250 examples, with the introduction of the M.G. " L " Type MAGNA.

There is History of about 11 " F " type MAGNA's being once in New Zealand, but only 6 seem to be accounted for now.


The first deviation from M.G. " types " came with the introduction of the MGA, after the alphabet was used up with the ZA and ZB Magnettes, Up until this year 1956 all M.G. cars were described M dot G dot. The
MGA and subsequent Models were described with out dots. The MGA was sold as an, M.G. Series MGA in 1957 " First of a New Line " . The MGB was described as " Superlative MGB " in the sales Brochure, and in the October 24th 1962 issue of Motor Magazine's Road Test report. This report was subsequently reprinted by the M.G.CAR COMPANY LTD. and was listed as MAKE - M.G. TYPE - M.G.B ( dots after M & G but not after the B.

Confused ? or gone dotty? MG with dots, MG with out dots ?

I have taken a keen interest in this subject for many years and from my collection of literature, Factory published Documents and Sales Brochures, I offer a brief overview of my Research.

Jean Kimber-Cook, Cecil Kimbers Daughter has written of her early recollections of her Father having described when asked what does M.G. stand for? He said, " M.G. stands for it self. " This statement, I
conclude, is absolutely correct as M.G. was then established in its own right as a respected leader in Sports Car production, but in the beginning, and in subsequent factory publications, George Tuck the Works Publicity officer often outlined how it all began. George produced an Export book in 1937 called " SAFETY FAST " IN THE MAKING. In the introduction reference is drawn to the beginning I quote, " We all
love the very best, the things in this life with an air of exclusiveness, distinction, refinement and good reputation. This particularly is true of Motor Cars”.


As you turn the pages of this book you will read the story of a Specialised manufacturing concern which has grown from the original business undertaking of Viscount Nuffield - The Morris Garages - whose
initial lettering forming the Trademark M.G. were given as a compliment to the great Industrialist."


From the same book I quote " In 1923 Cecil Kimber realised motoring could appeal to the aesthetic, as well as the practical, sense. William Morris ( as He was then ) in his wisdom backed the idea, so
good was it that 1926, 1927, 1929, all saw moves to larger factories to cope with the growing demand for this higher form of Motoring which set a new standard on luxury travel and which opened up a new sporting
pastime. " Every reference in this book is either M.G., or M.G. Factory. and is published by the M.G. CAR COMPANY LIMITED. ABINGDON ON - THAMES. BERKSHIRE. ENGLAND. Sole Exporters - M.I.E. LIMITED. COWLEY. OXFORD. ENGLAND.


I have no doubt discussion on this subject will continue with many future generations yet, but I, when asked by many young students who are writing school projects on motoring or M.G., who ask Me " what
does M.G. stand for " I will answer with confidence " M.G. stands for it self, just like MORRIS, & RILEY etc., but in the beginning the initial letters of Morris Garages formed the Trademark M.G. that is
why there has always been dots. "



Rod Brayshaw."
Rod Brayshaw

Despite all this if anyone asks me I'll continue to say "Morris Garages"...it's just easier to explain. And if it's not correct then someone needs to correct wikipedia because, right or wrong, this is what they say:

"Best known for its two-seat open sports cars, MG also produced saloons and coupés. Kimber was an employee of William Morris; MG is from Morris Garages. The MG business was Morris's personal property until 1935 when he sold MG into his holding company, Morris Motors Limited, restructuring his holdings before issuing (preference) shares in Morris Motors to the public in 1936."

and

"The MG Car Company got its name from Morris Garages, a dealer of Morris cars in Oxford which began producing its own customised versions to the designs of Cecil Kimber, who had joined the company as its sales manager in 1921. He was promoted to general manager in 1922,[5] a position he held until 1941 when he fell out with Lord Nuffield over procuring wartime work. Kimber died in 1945 in a railway accident."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_Cars
Gene Gillam

Anybody can edit Wikipedia although it will be subject to peer review so it might be best to contact one of the active contributors and convince them of whatever facts are available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MG_Cars&action=history

Just as a note I have all the documentation that is referenced and I am still confused by the one statement:

That M.G. stands for itself but its a tribute to Morris Garages. That seems to be a oxymoron.
Chris Couper



At this point I think it is time to reprint the letter from Jonathan Daniel for the benefit of those who have not had the opportunity to read it. Mr Daniel knew Cecil personally and was at the RAC dinner where he heard Cecil speak. I have written to the RAC asking if they have minutes of the dinner speech which would confirm Mr Daniel's strident assertions. I will post their confirmation when I receive it. I would simply like to add that if we trust Mr Kimber enough to place our lives in his hands every time we get behind the wheel of one of his cars why then is it so hard to accept his word?


"Regarding the dots in M.G. as I started this particular ball rolling with my letter to Auto Classic magazine, my thoughts on this matter may be of interest as they involve a personal conversation with Mr. Kimber himself, some sixty years ago.

First let me dispel the ‘experts’ who doubt Mrs. Cook’s (Jean Kimber Cook, daughter of Cecil Kimber, founder of the M.G. Car Company) comments – she is absolutely correct in stating that ‘M.G. does not stand for Morris Garages.’ As regards the dots, however, they are there for a particular reason which I will come to later.

Despite what numerous books and commentators say, the truth of the matter is that Mr. Kimber, in pursuit of a name for his inspired cars, chose the M from Morris and the G from Garages as a tribute to his employer – Billy Morris, they were not abbreviations. Had anyone dated (sic) to suggest to him that they were shorthand initials for Morris Garages, he would have given them ‘flea in the ear’ pointing out there already was a Morris Garages – how could there be two?

At an R.A.C. awards dinner in the Thirties, Mr. Kimber, as our guest of hour (sic), made quite clear to all present that he wanted it known that M.G. stood just for itself – ‘The British Sports Car.’ I was there (and still have the signed menu card) and it came from the man himself! His daughter – Mrs. Cook – also related this fact in your April/May ’88 issue.

As to the famed dots, my friend M.E.L. Gosling – a motorcyclist, having been informed the M.&G. were not shortened, queried the use of the dots; Mr. Kimber told us it was simply a matter of design – more visually attractive, and no other reason. It was confusing then, as now, however, and no-one would dare to take on the master. We later studied the factory literature of the time, and agreed – he was right! ‘That which Mr. Kimber joined together, let no editor or tired typesetter put asunder.’ If it was good enough for the boss of M.G. it should be good enough for the rest of us.

You are not alone in your ignorance of these important points: witness the new signs outside the M.G. Car Club premises in Abingdon – no dots – someone has slipped up, and they really should know better. This is not the first time the club has abandoned its history – only since the arrival of previous magazine editors, was the exclamation mark following ‘Safety Fast!’ returned to its rightful place; again this is an important piece of M.G. history and is there for a reason.

The excellent centrespread in your September 1991 issue is how it should be done – or are these just dots in front of my ancient eyes? You can do it when you try! Today’s printing technology can easily be programmed to include the dots in M.G. and exclude them from MGB etc., it is simple, if you care enough.

May this octogenarian offer some advice to all the young bloods? Do not ignore your marque heritage, that is what made it great. If required, I will gladly dip into my pension to fund glucose tablets for your typesetter, and blobs of paint for the M.G. Car Club signs, along with a copy of "M.G. by McComb", wherein on each page, you will see how the letters should be presented when not in the octagon.

Congratulations to Mr. Barry Foster for his spirited response (Aug. ’91): was it really such a short letter – or had you cut it? Here’s hoping he can work the magic on Mr. Kimber’s own club.

Finally, on the subject of the dots: your own magazine, while not having the benefit of the octagon on the front cover, would, as Mr. Kimber intimated, impart more visual impact with bold stops in place – after all, what is an Enthusiast?

Before I go chasing the other Brooklands lads, upstairs – where engines do not break, and fuel is free – do me and Mr. Kimber’s memory a favour: remember that the mists of time have a habit of obscuring the facts, so shun the self-proclaimed experts, become a purist and stand out from the crowd and proudly state – ‘M.G. stands for itself – not Morris Garages, and the dots are there as a matter of design only.’
P Hehir

I subject I have debated with others for years as "does not"....the problem is people keep throwing it out there!

This was part of an email from a friend I got today with a bunch of automotive trivia questions.

Does not help!

David Sheward TF1500 #7427

As far as MG relating to Morris Garages, it's hard to believe that the letters used were purely coincidental. Perhaps in his "MG stands for itself" comment, Kimber was trying to distance MG from its more plebeian Morris roots?
Jack Long

Jack. Mr Daniel makes that point very clear where he says;

" Despite what numerous books and commentators say, the truth of the matter is that Mr. Kimber, in pursuit of a name for his inspired cars, chose the M from Morris and the G from Garages as a tribute to his employer – Billy Morris, they were not abbreviations. Had anyone dated (sic)(dared) to suggest to him that they were shorthand initials for Morris Garages, he would have given them ‘flea in the ear’ pointing out there already was a Morris Garages – how could there be two?"

I've read his letter at least a dozen times. Have a closer read. I think Jonathan Daniel has the last word especially if the RAC can back him up!

I don't want to be dragged away from the thread but plebian is a bit tough on Morris don't you think, particularly the early models?

Peter
TD 5801

P Hehir

When I tell some one it is an MG, they say GM?
Len Fanelli

My thoughts on this are that M.G. did stand for Morris Garages, but due to the tax changes the British Govt. were bringing in, another separate business owned by William Morris would have led to a larger tax burden on William Morris.

The attached image (if it works)is from "MG The Untold Story" by David Knowles, page 11.

Ian
TF4056

Ian Fry

Suppose for a moment that MG *did* stand for Morris Garages -- what would change?
Rob Edwards

Rob

What else would people have to debate?

Ian
TF4056
Ian Fry

Vi versus emacs?
Rob Edwards

I tried to delete my last post but I was too slow. What I posted was flippant and demeaning to history buffs.

To anyone interested in the history of anything, facts are important. I am the family history custodian? for our family and in that branch of history for example, verified facts are very important.

The average punter who views a car at a Saturday afternoon car show probably isn't really interested if it was built in 1953, 1954 or 1955 - it's just a nice car. But the build date fact is very important to the owner, if only to enable him/her to purchase correct parts that will fit.

I personally find the debate about the origin of the M.G. name to be fascinating. However, I think it is a debate that will go on forever unless some long lost piece of paper turns up, or Cecil shouts from the heavens that we are all theorising bullsh*t.

Apologies to anyone for the previous post.

Ian
TF4056
Ian Fry

I'm not trying to offend anyone either, but honestly I don't understand the debate. There is a lot of discussion but I don't get "stands for" versus "tribute to". Seems a distinction without a difference....
Rob Edwards

Wait, I'm lost. Could we start over?

Rob. :)
Rob Welborne

"Suppose for a moment that MG *did* stand for Morris Garages -- what would change? "

That would mean that Cecil Kimber was wrong, and that is just ..... wrong!

;-)

BobbyG

Bobby Galvez

"What else would people have to debate?"

Well, we could borrow from the E-Type list I'm on and endlessly debate whether Jaguar is pronounced "Jag-u-are" or "Jag-war". Or whether the E-Type is also an XKE.

[ducks and runs]
David Littlefield

"Jag-u-are" or "Jag-war"

The English tend to say Jag-ewer
Geoff Ev

It's "jag-wire" -- Steve Jobs said so (when referring to OS X 10.2 "Jaguar" ;-)
Rob Edwards

For Graces Guide on Cecil Kimber (not that its a perfect source of information but ...)

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Cecil_Kimber

1921 Kimber got a job as Sales manager with Morris Garages, their agency in Oxford.

1923 Wrigley had also been a major supplier to Morris and was bought by them

1922 Became General Manager
Moves home from Clifton Hampden to a house in Banbury Road, Oxford
Moves to 339 Woodstock Road, Oxford

1928 While there he developed a range of special bodies for Morris cars eventually leading to the founding of M.G. as a separate marque specialising in sports cars.
Chris Couper

Anyone posting on this board should be well aware of the real truth - M.G. clearly stands for Money Gone.
<grin>
Lew Palmer

Can't argue with you there Lew.
P Hehir

I was talking to Col. Sanders the other day. He assured me that KFC stood only for itself, and any similarity to any previously used name was purely coincidental.
kylemorley

I always thought MG stood for "Might Go..." The thought that all owners have when they turn the key and pull the starter.
-David

D. Sander

Thanks Kyle. Maybe you should read my initial post & ask yourself where your contribution sits?
P Hehir

Having owned in excess of 300 (not a typo) MG's of all sorts and models, and, being an ardent lover of the marque, I find the only description of "M.G." that annoys me is when I hear someone say that it stands for "More Grief".

Only the jealous come up with such sobriquets.
JR Ross

OK, so let's go with Maximum Goodtimes or Marvelous and Gorgeous.
Jud (My other car is my one-owner Fix Or Repair Daily '77 F-100)
J K Chapin

"I was talking to Col. Sanders the other day. He assured me that KFC stood only for itself, and any similarity to any previously used name was purely coincidental."

Clever .... but "Morris Garages" was not a "previously used name" for "The M.G. Car Company." It was the name of the business where the first M.G. cars were built with an identity separate from the Morris brand.

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

I had an uncle in New Haven CT who managed a Packard dealership in New Haven around 1950/56 or so. And he was a collector. I remember he referred to MG as Motormans Garage. There is no reference to this anywhere, just another historic comment. Peter54TF
Peter Dahlquist

Good one Lew. But I'm pretty sure it stands for "My Gawd". That's what I hear when I bring one home.
L E D LaVerne

Or, if you believe the current owners, "Modern Gentleman"
Rob Edwards

This thread was discussed between 17/11/2013 and 23/11/2013

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archives. Join this live forum now