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MG TD TF 1500 - MG TF 1500 Battery

Dear All,
Can you help me, which size was the original in my car.

Type 291 Classic Car Hard Rubber Battery 12V 57Ah
Positive Front LeftStandard
Specification
Voltage 12 Volts
Technology Wet
Capacity 57 Ah
CCA 470 A
Length 250 mm
Width 168 mm
Height inc. terms 221 mm

or

Type 242 Classic Car Hard Rubber Battery 12V 70Ah
Positive Front LeftStandard
Specification
Voltage 12 Volts
Technology Wet
Capacity 70 Ah
CCA 500 A
Length 305 mm
Width 171 mm
Height inc. terms 227 mm

Thanks for your answer in advance.
Tamas

PT Panker

This is what I did. Optima red top gel battery, will NEVER leak, with a "tar topper" kit modified to look like a LUCAS battery and not a DELCO battery. I did the modification myself. I changed the fake caps and had the LUCAS graphic made at a local graphics shop.

D. Sander

Better picture of an identical battery in my TD.

D. Sander

Looks great Dave. This is the route I plan on going with the Optima and the tar topper. Modern technology disguised with a vintage look.

Frank
Frank Cronin

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

Can you tell me more about the "tar topper" kit. I'd like to do the same. Send to my email if you don't want to continue the hijack.

Thanks,

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

The "tar topper" is designed to disguise an optima battery as a Delco battery. I bought mine from Moss part number 241-035. To modify it, I took the caps off, inverted them and filled the caps in with jb weld. Next, I filed "Delco" off the caps and painted them with "cast blast" spray paint. I had the propr "Lucas" graphic made in a vinyl transfer and put that on the front. The finishing touch was the proper "Lucas" helmet head battery terminals purchased from Rhode Island wiring. I can get the Lucas graphic for you if you wish.
-David.
D. Sander

Also interested Dave. Can you post any available detail here including the LUCAS decal? Perhaps I could email your supplier & have a few of them made & posted here to OZ. How does the size of the Optima Red Top compare with the original LUCAS? I'm curious to also have the answer to Tamas's question. Cheers.
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I had them made five years ago. I'll swing buy the shop where I had them made this week and get more made up. I'll post when I have more.
-David.
D. Sander

The size of my battery is the same as the original Lucas battery, but the terminals are not in the same place. The Lucas terminals are closer to the front and the sides than on my Optima battery. I have fooled concours judges, though. I chuckled when I was told that it would leak. (It won't).
-David.
D. Sander

Ok, I just checked. When I had them made I only wanted one. I was told that they have a $25 minimum charge, so they gave me five. I used two, one on the TD and then four years later one on the TF. I gave two away and have one left. I will go there on Tuesday and order more. I will report back with the results. I will sell them at cost.
Stay tuned,
David
D. Sander

Here is another source for an original battery if you want to spend some money. It's maintenance free.

http://www.antiqueautobattery.com/batteries/british/G27L.html

Note the caps are black as they should be.

I bought mine through Abingdon Spares and its been running great for 5 years. (35 119 Lucas Battery $375.00).

You do not trickle charge these batteries. Once they are charged you just unplug the charger until you use it. Then it either recharges via the generator or if you did not drive it much you can give it a quick top off but DO NOT leave a charger on them.

Chris Couper

Chris. I do like Dave's approach. Does the battery you suggest have the potential to leak? Is there a LUCAS logo on yours? Is it identical to the original?

Dave, I've already had an email from a couple of guys here so I could probably easily get rid of 5. I'll check out the OPTIMA on the web for the actual size & local availability. I'm assuming the battery is the same in both the TD & TF? Cheers.
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Chris. I do like Dave's approach. Does the battery you suggest have the potential to leak? Is there a LUCAS logo on yours? Is it identical to the original?

Dave, I've already had an email from a couple of guys here so I could probably easily get rid of 5. I'll check out the OPTIMA on the web for the actual size & local availability. Cheers.
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

OOps!.. Seems like I got two for the price of one.
Dave, I've checked both the Moss catalogue & the website but can find no record of the "tar topper kit Moss P/N 241-035" Help!
Peter TD 5801.
P Hehir

Try www.tartopper.com . Their website says "now available in Australia".
Joe Olson

Thanks Joe
P Hehir

Hi Tamas. I still don't have any idea what the original size of the LUCAS battery was. Apologies for bending your thread. FYI the OPTIMA Red Top 35 for use with the Tar Topper is approx 254 x 176 x 198 or 238 x 175 198, depending on who you talk to!

Dave. Tar Topper sell the Lucas decal for $5. It's shown on their website & is a gold colour on vinyl as opposed to the white in your pic. Not sure which is the more original? The OPTIMA 35 has the terminals wider spaced & closer to the front, with the + terminal on the right. Checking both the Tar Topper & the OPTIMA out at the wholesaler just down the road in Gladesville tomorrow. Worth shopping around as the battery here varies from $255 inc freight delivered to the front door, to a whacking $375 plus! Cheers.
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Original battery size was "Group 27", approx. 12.75"L x 6.88" W x 9.88 H I think. George
George Butz

Thanks George
P Hehir

The proper decal is white. The Lucas decal sold by optima is the same one moss sells. It is vintage 1970s.
-David
D. Sander

Here is a web site selling the Tar Topper for $30 US. No affiliation, just passing it along.

http://www.butchscoolstuff.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=144

D. Sander

Amazon has the Optima group 34/78 for $150.
-David
D. Sander

Thanks for the size George & the info on the decal David. White is the way to go. It was suggested in the archive that originally the decal was vertical?I've emailed Tar Topper enquiring about a Group 27 case & the originality of their decal. I assume the Group 27 @ 12.75" (324mm) is longer than the Group 24? I want to use Rob Grantham's rubber corners so the length has to match the original. I understand the posts are an issue with the Optima & am now leaning towards a conventional Group 27 flat top (at the original length if I can find one here with the terminals in the right place). Cheaper & looks more original. If it leaks I have a battery tray. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Cannot get my head around the concerns on battery leakage.

If the battery case is cracked its garbage bin material, if the battery boils your voltage regulator requires adjustment, if you spill electrolyte you are clumsy or overfilling the battery.

The battery prices quoted reveals yet again how we are "ripped off" here in Aus.
G Evans

The reply from Tar Topper confirms the Group 24 (10") is smaller than the Group 27 (12.75") which it seems they don't make. Scott from Tar Topper also avoided answering if their decal or the white was original. Page N3 of the WSM provides much info re the look of the original Lucas battery. The white LUCAS embossing (not a decal) was vertical, the serrated edged caps (Fig N.1 WSM), a plain black with LUCAS embossed & both of the terminals were at the rear. The one on Chris Couper's car is the correct G27 length enabling the use of Rob's buffers (see pic above) & also has the terminals at the rear. Antique Auto Battery's G27 L/B has the white horizontal embossed LUCAS, rear terminals correctly located & black LUCAS embossed caps but are different to the caps illustrated in the WSM. They are NOT prepared to sell just the caps! As people collect crazy things I wonder if there are battery cap collectors out there with some of the original LUCAS battery caps in their collections they might be willing to part with? If an original case can be located it is possible to have the battery reassembled here & presumably elsewhere.

Tamas, this suggests both of the batteries you were enquiring about differ from the original in their length & also in the location of their terminals. Hope all this helps. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I went to the graphics shop today and ordered more "LUCAS" battery decals. They will cost a little under five bucks each. I can sell them for $5 plus postage. I can be emailed at dasander(at)aol.com I can send a batch to Australia in one envelope if that would be easier.
Best, David
D. Sander

I found another supplier that supplies the tar topper to dress up an Optima group 34 battery to look like a tar topper for us $30. The website is:
http://www.ecklerscorvette.com/optima-tar-topper-battery-cover.html


D. Sander

It's a pity Tar Topper don't make a Group 27 kit as a cheaper battery with rear mounted lead terminals could then be hidden within. With David's LUCAS decals & Rob's rubbers, the battery could then be made to look much more like that supplied by Antique Auto Battery's copy of the second version of the original LUCAS wet cell. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter,
I have not tried it yet, but I am quite sure Rob's rubber corner pieces will fit on the "tar topper" encased Optima Group 34 battery. The problem will be that the Optima battery has rounded corners, and the Tar Toper case is thin ABS plastic. The Tar Topper case is hollow at the corners, some epoxy or other such material would have to be between the Optima battery and the plastic case otherwise the case would collapse at the corners from the pressure of the rubber corner pieces.
Best,
David
D. Sander

G. Evans:

"Cannot get my head around the concerns on battery leakage.
If the battery case is cracked its garbage bin material, if the battery boils your voltage regulator requires adjustment, if you spill electrolyte you are clumsy or overfilling the battery."

All true with conventional "wet" batteries. The problem with the Tar Top type batteries, as the original Lucas batteries and reproduction replacement batteries are, is that they leak. The Tar top and the composite case are very prone to leakage.
The Optima Gel cell batteries cannot leak, as they are not "wet" batteries. They are AGM or Advanced Glass Mat batteries. They have gel filled spiral wound glass mat and lead cells, as opposed to the traditional flat lead plates immersed in acid. They can be mounted in any position, even up-side-down. Even if the case should crack, they can't leak.
They will not vent hydrogen gas, weep acid at the terminals, or get covered with the nasty powder corrosion. They simply cannot leak.
Best,
David
D. Sander

David I think Graeme is saying there are no problems with a wet cell battery if you treat them right. If it leaks either the case is cracked or you are doing something wrong. (Bit like the other wet cell we all know & love). Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter,

Over 30 years or so,I have always had my rubber case
batteries rebuilt.

Contrary to popular opinion,the 'LUCAS' logo,at least in the early stages of TF production,had vertical printing
on the battery front in red lettering.Maybe white lettering later and possibly wen to horizontal format.
As you know,the TF WSM,depicts a Lucas battery with the
vertical print.

Ariel Batteries in Melbourne do a fantastic job on the 'classic' type battery rebuild format for rubber cases.

In my experience at least,they last 5 to 6 years in very good order and do not leak!
The owner worked with battery rebuilds from the age of 14 years and remembers the vertical print in red.

Obviously 'LUCAS' original rubber cased batteries are nearly impossible to find in perfect,functional order these days ready for rebuilds.

However modern rubber cased rebuilt batteries can be made to look very similar to the original type. With a bit of cunning tweaking,the lettering form can be reproduced via computer technology and applied to the battery case!!
The current modern 'Lucas'decals always look 'wrong' to me for T types.

Under the Lucas 'helmet' type battery connectors there were felt(not plastic!)washers,green for the negative post and dark red for the positive post.

The self tapping screw holding down the helmet connector to each terminal post was slot head.
Documented by a Lucas bulletin.

On TFs at least,where the battery sits in the bulkhead compartment,this area was painted black by the Factory originally.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
R GRANTHAM

Great post Rob on details on the TF on the battery and battery box. I will take note of the green / red felt washers.
Frank Cronin

Hi Frank C.,

My pleasure Frank.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
R GRANTHAM

Love to see a pic Rob? I'll call Ariel Batteries just on the offchance. Thanks mate.
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

The green and red anti corrosive felt washers have been avalable in the aftermarket for many, many years. I have never heard of these being factory. I would want to see some documentation to show that they were in fact factory original.
Perhaps many dealers installed them due to the inherent leaks of the tar top batteries. I don't know
Best,
David
D. Sander

These pictures are from TF 9062 that show what Rob mentioned of the colored felt under the helmet head battery connectors.

The car is pretty much untouched less of the steps taken by the original owner to preserve original parts.

This would be a good question to follow up with the owner of the felt. He probably has the original battery stowed somewhere. I know he kept the factory radiator top hose and replaced it with a new one for preventive maintenance. Was the original a socknet finish or just plain rubber??

Dave Sander, are you going to see this car again soon?


Frank Cronin

Green felt.

Note: the Bosch unit mounted to the bulkhead and wire to the terminal was installed by the owner. Uses this to trickle charge the battery.

Frank Cronin

Frank,
I will be going to see the car sometime in the next few weeks. I want to do a feature article this car in TSO, as a way to wrap up the Survivor Challenge. I suspect he put the felt washers there as a preventative move, but I will check. I sure hope he has kept the original battery. Knowing him, he did.
I apologize to the original poster of this thread. I am afraid it has been quite hijacked.
Be well,
David
D. Sander

This does look like a new Abingdon Spares battery but the correct shape/size. Also the plastic battery box is not original, the cad plated finish on the battery "j" hooks are suspect and the felt washers are new too. The cap screws don't look original too but its a bit hard to see from the pictures.

Note that I doubt any original battery lasted more than a few years. They either leaked big time or they just failed, even if the car was not used much. The battery technology of the day is not even what it was 30 years ago and certainly not like the solid state batteries of today.

Since the owner went out of his way to encase all of this in a plastic box (very common and at one time my car sported such a box too) we know he was afraid of acid ruining his car.

Dave when you are there ask him to unscrew one of his battery caps. Peer inside. If you see plates and water then its an older reproduction. If you see a gaping hole or some hints of electronics then its one of the recent solid state devices. If the later you can tell the owner he can ditch the plastic box, felt and other pieces of protection since that battery will never leak acid. He can then go back to the original wood underliner which I suspect is either below the plastic box or he has hidden away somewhere.
Chris Couper

This thread was discussed between 23/03/2014 and 26/03/2014

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